The Podium at Calgary

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Now that you've seen the TV version of the top skaters, how did you feel about Elena Sokolova's free skate and was she underscored?

I can tell you that the fans in the Arena (Canadians, Americans, Russians, Others) just booed the judges for not giving Elena her do.

Did you question the scoring from your point of view?

Joe

 

[flowjo35]

I think just like Michelle in 2005 worlds, if Elena did not have such a bad Q round I think she might have gotten third place. She had too much ground to make up, I think she was 9 points back. I am just glad that she skated the way she did in the short and long.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

So you are believing that the Quali Round is the most important round? and Sasha's poor quali round didn't matter? I'm somewhat confused about your reply.

Joe

 

[CDMM1991]

I think the Qualifying Round should either be abolished, or be used simply as qualification for the short program and then have the slate wiped clean.

As for the fairness of Elena's placement, in the end I think it was fair. She might have had the jumps, but she doesn't have anything to back them up. There is very little choreography in the program, and her spins leave something to be desired. Combining that with the fact that she was in a bit of a hole after the qualifying round and short program, I think her placement is justified, as much as I hate to see such a flawed performance on the podium.

 

[Mathman]

So you are believing that the Quali Round is the most important round? and Sasha's poor quali round didn't matter? I'm somewhat confused about your reply.

Although Sasha had a poor qualifying round (27.59 factored points), Elena had an even poorer one (24.42). This put Elena 3 points behind Sasha going into the short program.

It was the short program that won the battle for Sasha. She placed first in the short with 66.62 points, to Elena's 60.98 points. As Flowjo points out, this left Elena with 9 points to make up.

Although Elena did beat Sasha in the LP, it was not enough to get Elena out of the hole she had dug for herself in the earlier rounds.

Pointwise, the qualifying round is the least important, counting for only 1/7 of the total score. The SP counts for 2/7 and the LP counts for 4/7. Still, points are points, whichever round you get them in.

Of course the audience thought Elena should have beat Sasha in the LP. The judges agreed, and gave Elena third place behind Kimmie and Fumie.

Audiences are always "in the moment" and don't take into account how the New Judging System really works.

But Elena's victory in the LP wasn't enough to overcome the lead that Sasha carried out of the first two rounds.

That's the cool thing about the NJS. The audience can't just sit back and say, oh dear, so-and-so was robbed. It's all right there in the points.

As Flowjo mentioned, the same thing happen to Michelle at Dortmund. She got third in both the short program and the long program, but "points is points" and she finished fourth.

MM

 

[Ptichka]

I just looked closely at the particular marks. I guess some of Elena's GoE could be higher - then again judges have tended to give most well executed elements GoE of 0 or 1. In Calgary ladies FS exceptions are - Fumie's 3S, Sasha's and Carolina's sit spins, Emily's axel, and Onda's combo jump - that's it!

I ageee with Elena's low components score (though the only mark she got below 7 was for transitions, which are indeed her very weak point), though perhaps Sasha should have been penalized more in the Performance/Execution mark (her averaged mark there was actually 0.03 higher than Fumie's, which IMHO is ridiculous). Arguably, the same goes for interpretation - Sasha's 7.89 was the highest of the night; for example, I would argue that "Effortless movement in time to music" in this program just wasn't there to such an extent. Though I see how the fact that Sasha is indeed the most artistic skater of the field unduly influenced the judges.

Basically, Sasha won her medal on the Short Program, where the difference between her score and Elena's was about 6 points (her QR score was also 3 points higher than Elena's). Personally, I love how Sasha attacks her "Dark Eyes"; while her Calgary SP wasn't quite the same as her Turin one, I still agree with a high scorfe. In fact, the difference between hers and Elena's components on SP was 3 points - absolutely fair in my estimate. As to the 3 point difference in SP they had on elements - that came from spins and spirals, Elena's jump total was actually higher than Sasha's.

Bottom line - don't disagree with final placements, though the ultimate 6 point difference between them seems too great.

 

[chuckm]

In the SP, Elena easily outscored Sasha on jumps, but there are only 3 jump elements in the SP and 5 non-jump elements, and Sasha vastly outscored Elena on the non-jump elements. Not only that, but most of Sasha's non-jump elements were level4, with only one level3 element. Elena's footwork section was only level2, and one of her spins was a level3.

Then there are the PCS scores, where Sasha is almost always #1, so altogether, Sasha had more than a 5 point lead in the SP to go with her QR lead.

 

[krenseby]

Hmm

The thing to conclude from all this discussion of Elena's points is that she should make her programs more COP friendly. She is too focused on the jumps above everything else. Incidentally, since COP Irina had become more jump obsessed too. The Russian single skaters seem to forget artistry sometimes, though I do like them ;-)..

 

[Tonichelle]

So you are believing that the Quali Round is the most important round? and Sasha's poor quali round didn't matter? I'm somewhat confused about your reply.

Joe

Joe, I'm surprised that you are confused by what was said. I didn't find it confusing and normally I'm the one asking someone for clarification!

anyway, I think what flowjo was saying was not that it is the most important... you're still thinking in the 6.0 mindset, I think... because now every portion of the competition is equal, but Elena had more ground to make up from short program on compared to what Sasha did...

Mathman's break down explains it best

 

[IDLERACER]

Considering the title of this thread, I figure some photographs would be appropriate, courtesey of Yahoo:

Photo #1
Photo #2
Photo #3
Photo #4​

 

[zeytin]

ok...competition has three parts...but the least important part is QR. then SP then LP...and Elena skated clean in SP and LP (only one mistake) but Sasha skated clean just in SP (she had a mistake,too).
Ok, sasha may have the best artistry in competition but when you land nearly all of your jumps in a non-clean way and have a fall, this affect all the things in programm negatively. i mean the magic and the beautiy of the programm goes away...IMO...i think the PCS scores must be evaluated again...

 

[jsteam4501s]

For my "dream podium", I picked

Kimmie
Sasha
Fumie

It finished:

Gimmie Kimmie!
Cue me Fumie
Crasha Sasha

I would say my dream came true - pretty much.

 

[Jaana]

Actually I thought (along with our commentators) that Sokolova overscored in the freeskate. The choreography was lacking and the transitions, were there any? Besides, I have never gotten the impression that she is good in interpreting music. She has though a very nice smile.

 

[flowjo35]

Thanks Mathman and Tonichelle. I thought my post before was okay, maybe not. Of course the Q round is important, but as others stated Sasha got a better score and then won the short program which helped her win her medal. Nine points is a lot to make up.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe, I'm surprised that you are confused by what was said. I didn't find it confusing and normally I'm the one asking someone for clarification!

anyway, I think what flowjo was saying was not that it is the most important... you're still thinking in the 6.0 mindset, I think... because now every portion of the competition is equal, but Elena had more ground to make up from short program on compared to what Sasha did...

Mathman's break down explains it best

I read Flojo was justifying Elena's bronze loss because of her QR, and why she brought in Michelle's QR in Dortmund (Mathman too) was ridiculous because Kwan did indeed move up to third place. Elena did not. Toni - Would you say Lysacek did not deserve to get 3rd place because of a poor QR?

Pointwise, the qualifying round is the least important, counting for only 1/7 of the total score. The SP counts for 2/7 and the LP counts for 4/7. Still, points are points, whichever round you get them in.

Profound statement! Did anyone think it was not the least important?

Audiences are always "in the moment" and don't take into account how the New Judging System really works.

You write an opinion, yet your attendance at LIVE competitions is minimal. Please understand that the audience at LIVE competitions are not there for SOI or a Marchalls phone in. They know what is going on exactly or they wouldn't be there.

But Elena's victory in the LP wasn't enough to overcome the lead that Sasha carried out of the first two rounds.

What the audience was boooing about was that it should have been. They were not boooing the system, they were booing the judging. Not unusual at LIVE competitions.

That's the cool thing about the NJS. The audience can't just sit back and say, oh dear, so-and-so was robbed. It's all right there in the points.

You'd be surprised how many fans in the audience are more knowledgeable than you would like to believe. I think MM, you could ask Speedy for a PR job defending the CoP.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

BTW, Chuckum had the best retort on my Elena statement.

Joe

 

[flying camel]

She did beat Sasha in the free - skate. Elena does have a very sweet face and smile but she needs to work on her choreography. There is none. I can't believe she has a program like that with all the influences Russia has from there famous Ballets. She and Irinia look like they never change one thing in there choreography. It is just Blah!

 

[antmanb]

Now that you've seen the TV version of the top skaters, how did you feel about Elena Sokolova's free skate and was she underscored?

I can tell you that the fans in the Arena (Canadians, Americans, Russians, Others) just booed the judges for not giving Elena her do.

Did you question the scoring from your point of view?

Joe

I have to say i thikn that her LP was maybe slightly undermarked...my biggest complaint was Sasha being overmarked though. Comparing the two Sokolova's marks were probably in the right ballpark though, its Cohen's marks that should have been lower - how she got PCS like that when she was clearly having an off night i will never know. I think what hurts Sokolova are her easier spins and footwork. The thing that really confused me was i thought i saw sokolva land a perfect 3T/3T in the warm up but she didn't even go for it in the LP...did i get it wrong? Did she not do one in the warm up? It would have boosted her score to get that 3/3 and late in the program where the solo 3T was.

As to whether Sokolva should have been third overall...i don't know because i think the qualifying round was not great for either her or Choen but Sokolva just had too much ground to make up.

Like i've said in another post if i'm honest i think Sarah Meier was undermarked in the SP and should have been above Sokolova.

Ant

 

[Mathman]

Alas, Joe, the audiences (TV commentators, too) are still stuck in the 6.0 era. Like, they cheer for Lambiel doing a triple Axel when the NJS says he only did a double.

Points, points, points.

Under the old judging system, yes, we could all sit back and say, oh Elena skated so pretty and Sasha fell down, so give the medal to Elena.

A knowledgable person who is not living in the past just can't say that any more.

No, I am certainly not "defending" this new system. I think it sucks and will be the death of figure skating. Look how much better the exhibition skates were than the competitve skates. That's why I like the cheesefests so much, I guess -- the quality of the skating is so much better (no CoP).

BTW, Flowjo was right that it was the 2005 Worlds where Michelle finished in fourth place despite finishing third in both the short and long. My mistake in saying Dortmund instead of Moscow.

MM

 

[Mathman]

Cue me Fumie