The Politics of Figure Skating

[JanJam]

Same should go for the OGM, if Irina has more fans at the Olympics and wins, what's the difference.!
!

Who needs fans when you already have the judges behind you? Irina certainly doesn't. Even if everyone kept quiet in the arena, Irina skating to all her elements in a Biellman position would win!

 

[Doggygirl]

DG my original questions were referring to all of the comments that the judges were "handing the medal" to Irina. If they are, why Irina? I mean she's not THAT charming. (just playing RD here)

ITA - I think we ARE asking the same set of questions. I seems that your primary question goes more to the "Why" (which is a very legitimate question, if true) and my question is leaning towards the "How" based on the current system.

I suspect we will both enjoy the season more if anyone can offer even a speculative (but reasonable, logical) answer to either or both of these questions.

DG

 

[JanJam]

Ditto, same goes for the US Nationals. Who wants to bet that the US Nationals will be fair and square..dream on. Probably Kwan should try to do a Biellman, I bet you would love the Biellman then.

I would LOVE to see MK do a Biellman, as I'm sure it would satisfy at least one segment of the audience: her fans. But even if she does a perfect version of it, she certainly won't win in the Olympics. The judges have been slapping our faces with Irina's name since last year, for goodness sake, hello! They won't change their minds now!

As for Nats, I don't think there's ever been a "cheating" issue, after all, who'd need to cheat with the 'queen of falls' around? But I don't think that all her fans would be happy to see MK do a Biellman. Some will be thrilled of course, but the rest would be more concerned about MK aggravating her injury.

 

[millie]

I would LOVE to see MK do a Biellman, as I'm sure it would satisfy at least one segment of the audience: her fans. But even if she does a perfect version of it, she certainly won't win. The judges have been slapping our faces with Irina's name since last year, for goodness sake, hello! They won't change their minds now!

Why should they change their minds!! She's the only one skating and skating she is. Why should you be upset, at least Kwan will win another National.

Irina is getting the marks that she deserves and worked for. Don't be a sore loser.

"Goodnight and GoodLuck"

 

[Doggygirl]

I think that the audiences reaction to the skating should have some bearing on the marks. A skater has fans because their skating drew those fans in. You don't see large fan bases for lousy skaters. It's not a popularity contest but who's skating has the most impact on the audience. If there are more Kwan fans in the audience, why is that....because her SKATING has made those folks her fans.

Sorry, but this is the format for a popularity contest IMO, not a judged sporting event. I DO believe that audience reaction is and should be important to show skating, and the new Marshall's format. But not for the sport / judged aspect.

If "audience reaction" is going to be a component of the judging at US Nats in January, I hope to find that out soon while I still have a chance to sell my all event ticket, and unload my pre-paid hotel room.

I am looking forward to seeing MK in person, in what might be the only competitive amateur event I ever get to see her perform in. But what I hope to see in total is a true sports/athletic event - not an audience popularity contest. I can stay home and save my money and know that that result would be. And that is NO DISS to MK. She IS the most popular (by a long stretch) Ladies Figure Skater in America, and I don't need to spend many hundreds of $ to know or witness that.

DG

 

[JanJam]

Why should they change their minds!! She's the only one skating and skating she is. Why should you be upset, at least Kwan will win another National.

Irina is getting the marks that she deserves and worked for. Don't be a sore loser.

"Goodnight and GoodLuck"

You're correct. Irina's the only one skating her entire program in a Biellman position. That's what the judges want, so she'll win. I don't think anyone's contradicting you.

(And why is Kwan in this discussion? She'll be no contender for the OGM, that's already a given.)

Go, Biellman, go!!!

 

[Piel]

Sorry, but this is the format for a popularity contest IMO, not a judged sporting event. I DO believe that audience reaction is and should be important to show skating, and the new Marshall's format. But not for the sport / judged aspect.

If "audience reaction" is going to be a component of the judging at US Nats in January, I hope to find that out soon while I still have a chance to sell my all event ticket, and unload my pre-paid hotel room.

I am looking forward to seeing MK in person, in what might be the only competitive amateur event I ever get to see her perform in. But what I hope to see in total is a true sports/athletic event - not an audience popularity contest. I can stay home and save my money and know that that result would be. And that is NO DISS to MK. She IS the most popular (by a long stretch) Ladies Figure Skater in America, and I don't need to spend many hundreds of $ to know or witness that.

DG

Is performance not a part of figure skating? If it is then why? Why is a skater popular? Because of the way they skate. A popular skater's skating appeals to the most people, so they must be doing something right. I am not saying that audience response should be the entire criteria but somewhere in there it should count for a few points. Are thousands of skating fans wrong? If so, what does that say for the fans?

 

[Mathman]

Is performance not a part of figure skating?

This is an interesting question (I mean the question about the role of emotion and connection to the audience under the New Judging System, not the childish zingers that folks are trying to score off each other on this thread hwell: )

Here is what the ISU rules say about the program component "Performance / execution," which Irina has so greatly excelled at this season, in the opinions of the ISU judges.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf

"Performance (definition) is the involvement of the skater physically, emotionally and intellectually as he or she translates the intent of the music and the choreography.

"Criteria (in part):

"Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement:

"In all skating disciplines each skater must be physically committed, sincere in emotion, and equal in comprehension of the music and in execution of all movement.

"Style and individuality/personality: Style is the distinctive use of line and movement as inspired by the music. Individuality/personality is a combination of personal and artistic preferences that a skater brings to the concept, manner, and content of the program.

"Projection: The skater radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience."

I don't know whether the ISU judges actually pay attention to this part of the rules or not. Examples of programs that deserved a 10.0 in the category of "radiating energy in an invisible connection to the audience" would be Michelle's Aranjuez at 2003 Worlds and Irina's World championship performance last year.

Is it a coincidence that Michelle was skating in Washington DC and Irina in Moscow?

MM

 

[CzarinaAnya]

To me anyway, I don't count Campbell's or the Japan Invitational etc. in the mix you are describing. I assume you are talking about Grand Prix events.

I might have missed something on a cursory glance, but we've had two full, and one partial (full result) events this season. Here are the results based on your issue with "home country" victories.

1) Skate America - I think B/A in Dance were the only home country skater(s) to win there. Do you think they were "gifted" with a home turf win? And if so, who do you think should have won Dance at SA?

2) Skate Canada - (THIS IS A SPOILER. Please do not post spoilers in The Edge.)

3) Cup of China - (Same as above)

I really am interested in feedback. I have been accused many times in my life of being naieve. But I am having trouble seeing many of the points being raised about now. Hope you can enlighten me!!

DG[/I]

Those are good questions. I think everyone on an MB at some point in time have been accused of not knowing what they're talking about, lol.

Your first point-No, I don't think they were held up, as far as I know. I actually, think Sokolova got held up. Though,I don't know why! She was sluggish in the SP, and her points from that program won her the comp. She's not from America, but, (not to seem like an American snob) at SA, weird things happen, but not with holding up our own skaters. Maybe the judges are just rusty at the firt GP event, I don't know?

2-A big yes.

3)Haven't looked.

 

[attyfan]

... Here is what the ISU rules say about the program component "Performance / execution," which Irina has so greatly excelled at this season, in the opinions of the ISU judges.

"Performance (definition) is the involvement of the skater physically, emotionally and intellectually as he or she translates the intent of the music and the choreography.

"Criteria (in part):

"Style and individuality/personality: Style is the distinctive use of line and movement as inspired by the music. Individuality/personality is a combination of personal and artistic preferences that a skater brings to the concept, manner, and content of the program.

"Projection: The skater radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience."

I don't know whether the ISU judges actually pay attention to this part of the rules or not. Examples of programs that deserved a 10.0 in the category of "radiating energy in an invisible connection to the audience" would be Michelle's Aranjuez at 2003 Worlds and Irina's World championship performance last year.

Is it a coincidence that Michelle was skating in Washington DC and Irina in Moscow?

MM

Interesting rules. Unfortunately, I think the idea of "Style" in terms of individual personality conflicts with the listing of only 5 or 6 methods of increasing the level, with level 4 requiring 4 of 5 (or 5 of 6), so there isn't enough variation to allow for individuality. They either need to adopt a Zayak rule for specific positions, or, list maybe 8 methods of increasing the level with 5 of the 8 needed for a level 4.

I don't think it is necessarily a "home audience" advantage for "Projection" ('home audience' didn't help Kostner at Euros). I think it is more a feeling that the audience is "with you". IMO, Michelle and Irina both had it in Dortmund -- Michelle in her final FS because she knew everyone was "with her" because of the streaker. Irina (IMO) also had the connection, but because she was ill, she didn't have everything else that she needed.

 

[Doggygirl]

The standard concern is that with the breakup of the Soviet Union, suddenly the so-called "Eastern Bloc" has a lot more votes. It would be quite possible (check out the judging panel for pairs for the coming Torino Olympics, for instance) for a skater to face judges from Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Lithuania, Uzbekistan, even Israel, all of whom grew up and trained together in Moscow. The suspicion is that they might have some sort of unannounced agenda, or at the least be susceptible to “you scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours.”

About the power (= money) of the USFSA, I think that does play a role in ISU decisions. Maybe Speedy will twist some arms to make sure America is not shut out of the Olympic medals altogether. (I almost wrote that maybe Johnny Weir will get a pity bronze in Torino, but it’s only the ladies that U.S. money interests care about.)

Doggygirl, the questions that you ask in post #6 have been quite seriously treated by statisticians. The most vocal expert against the CoP is Dr. George Rossano, who has published extensively on the statistical peculiarities of the NJS. It seems to be pretty widely accepted by the experts that it is neither easier nor harder to cheat under one system than another. In either system a small group of conspirators could easily sway the results and not get caught. In the case of the CoP, small fluctuations about the mean in either GOE or PCS would do the trick quite as handily as giving someone a third place ordinal instead of a second. (And that’s assuming that the tech specialist and his crew are not in on the deal.)

About Irina specifically, I do not see any evidence so far that she is being held up, gifted, anointed, or anything else. What I am seeing is that, by any reasonable measure, she is simply outskating everyone else.

I think for the most part the ISU wants to run a sound program. They want fair judging and a clean sport. Unfortunately, with respect to the Olympics, they are up against forces of politics and national chauvinism that are bigger than they are. I was interested to read, on another thread, that the Italian government finally was able to prevail over the International Olympic Committee about enforcement of drug laws. The (quite reasonable) position of the Italian government was that Olympic athletes have to obey the laws of Italy. The IOC argued (unsuccessfully, as it appears) that, no, we will take care of these violations in house.

The people who really suffer are the athletes from small countries that do not have any geo-political clout.

MM

Thanks MM. I appreciate your thoughtful response. I am still unclear as to what sort of scenario would lead to a flawed finish. How exactly does the Italian goverment prevailing over the Olympic Committee in a drug related case, relate to figure skating? If it does, I SURE hope you will tell us. If not... I'm not sure what to say,

I've been trying to figure out how to "close" this message. For someone like me who can always think of a million things to say, I'm at a loss.

DG

 

[Eeyora]

Question:

If there is indeed a scandal at the Olympics, Can the IOC demand that the Nationalities of the judges be made public and which ones counted?

 

[Jaana]

I believe that Irina will be the judges favourite for Olympic gold medal. She is the current World champion and if she skates well in Grand Prix competitions and wins in the final... In my opinion another reason might also be, because she was robbed from the gold in SLC. She should have been 1st after the short programme. If that had happened, she would have gotten the gold medal and Sarah the silver one.

 

[Mathman]

In my opinion another reason might also be, because she was robbed from the gold in SLC.

That's interesting that you think the judges would give Irina a gold medal in 2006 to make up for their error in 2002.

The same thing happened to the Detroit Lions football team last week. The week before, they lost to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers when a Lions receiver was ruled out of bounds on a last second touchdown. Video replays during the next week showed that the Lions wuzrobbed.

So the next week, when the Lions played the Baltimore Ravens, the officials called a near-record record 21 penalties against Baltimore, including the ejection of two players (one of whom was just an innocent bystander). When the Lions couldn't score in four tries from the one yard line, the refs called some more penalties and gave them four more chances. When they still couldn't score, the refs just said, oh well, that's a touchdown.

But the problem with giving Irina the gold medal in 2006 in place of the one they gave improperly to Sarah in 2002 is obvious. If Sasha is the true winner in 2006, but they give her medal to Irina, then they will have to reserve the 2010 gold medal for Sasha, robbing Mao Asada.

MM

 

[millie]

I believe that Irina will be the judges favourite for Olympic gold medal. She is the current World champion and if she skates well in Grand Prix competitions and wins in the final... In my opinion another reason might also be, because she was robbed from the gold in SLC. She should have been 1st after the short programme. If that had happened, she would have gotten the gold medal and Sarah the silver one.

I thought that by changing to the CoP's whereby skaters were judged on every element and everything they do , that favouritism wouldn't have a chance to raise its ugly head. How can "all" the judges have one particular favourite that they want to win? Aren't the judges judging each element individually and how would they be able to have a favourite? Aren't the judges representing different countries and unless they get together how can they know beforehand what points to give a skater? Unless someone can answer these questions, I don't know how they can have a favourite.

 

[Mathman]

How exactly does the Italian goverment prevailing over the Olympic Committee in a drug related case, relate to figure skating? If it does, I SURE hope you will tell us. If not... I'm not sure what to say.

The point I was trying to make is that in the Olympics, everything is politics. The whole affair is more about waving the flag and scoring one-upmanship over other nations than about the sporting events. The ISU for all its peccadilloes is less corrupt than the IOC, which is dominated by political forces which have nothing to do with sports at all.

The issue in the drug controversy was that the IOC tried to make the point that it was above the law and demanded protection of extraterritoriality. They tried the same tack in connection with the bribery scandals surrounding the choice to award the 2002 winter games to Salt lake City. (But unlike U.S. and European “traders” in Asia in the nineteenth century, it turned out they didn’t have the gunboats to back up their demands.)

I think the best point made so far on this thread is the one made by Attyfan in post #3. National skating federations are under pressure from “national ministries of sport,” etc., to cheat and conspire to win medals at all cost, otherwise their funding will be cut off. Didier Gailhueget has said this quite explicitly -- if France didn’t conspire with the Russian bloc, they would never win any medals at all, and the French Federation would never get out of its perpetual state of bankruptcy.

MM

 

[attyfan]

I believe that Irina will be the judges favourite for Olympic gold medal. She is the current World champion and if she skates well in Grand Prix competitions and wins in the final... In my opinion another reason might also be, because she was robbed from the gold in SLC. She should have been 1st after the short programme. If that had happened, she would have gotten the gold medal and Sarah the silver one.

If the judges do that, they are even nuttier than I think they are. After all, there is no assurance that, if Irina had been first in the SP, the LP would have gone the same way -- as Kwan has shown repeatedly, putting her behind in the SP often resultts in some serious kick-a** free skates -- remember Worlds '97? '00? '01? '04? Nats '04? IMO, the person who got hurt by putting Michelle in the lead after the SP was Michelle. Furthermore, Irina was as capable as Kwan at defeating Hughes in the FS; that she didn't do it is not the fault of any judging error in the SP.

 

[attyfan]

The point I was trying to make is that in the Olympics, everything is politics. The whole affair is more about waving the flag and scoring one-upmanship over other nations than about the sporting events. The ISU for all its peccadilloes is less corrupt than the IOC, which is dominated by political forces which have nothing to do with sports at all ...

I think the best point made so far on this thread is the one made by Attyfan in post #3. National skating federations are under pressure from “national ministries of sport,” etc., to cheat and conspire to win medals at all cost, otherwise their funding will be cut off. Didier Gailhueget has said this quite explicitly -- if France didn’t conspire with the Russian bloc, they would never win any medals at all, and the French Federation would never get out of its perpetual state of bankruptcy.

MM

Thank you for the compliment. I think you are right about the IOC -- in Athens, there was a member of the Iranian judo team who refused to compete against an Israeli (inflated his weight or something), and the IOC is supposed to impose sanctions, but didn't.

 

[Mathman]

To me, saying that so-and-so should have won such-and-such is like saying Napoleon should have won at Waterloo.

He didn't.

 

[Doggygirl]

That's interesting that you think the judges would give Irina a gold medal in 2006 to make up for their error in 2002.

The same thing happened to the Detroit Lions football team last week. The week before, they lost to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers when a Lions receiver was ruled out of bounds on a last second touchdown. Video replays during the next week showed that the Lions wuzrobbed.

So the next week, when the Lions played the Baltimore Ravens, the officials called a near-record record 21 penalties against Baltimore, including the ejection of two players (one of whom was just an innocent bystander). When the Lions couldn't score in four tries from the one yard line, the refs called some more penalties and gave them four more chances. When they still couldn't score, the refs just said, oh well, that's a touchdown.

But the problem with giving Irina the gold medal in 2006 in place of the one they gave improperly to Sarah in 2002 is obvious. If Sasha is the true winner in 2006, but they give her medal to Irina, then they will have to reserve the 2010 gold medal for Sasha, robbing Mao Asada.

MM