The Quad question

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I can really appreciate the prowess of the above named quad landers and some of them consistently. It is a difficult trick! However, to give credit its due;

KURT BROWNING was the first skater to ever land the Quadruple Jump. ​

Who will be the first to land the Quad Lutz?

Joe

 

[antmanb]

I can really appreciate the prowess of the above named quad landers and some of them consistently. It is a difficult trick! However, to give credit its due;

KURT BROWNING was the first skater to ever land the Quadruple Jump. ​

Who will be the first to land the Quad Lutz?

Joe

Browning was indeed credited with the landing of the first quad toe. Here's the program: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE7xKCudlII it had a double three turn on the landing. Is that mistake such more less than Weiss's two footing on his quad lutz attempt in 1998 Nagaon Olympics?

Ant

 

[Hsuhs]

Who will be the first to land the Quad Lutz?

Nobody.

 

[goldenpleasures]

Nobody.

I expect people were saying that about the triple axel a while back.

 

[Hsuhs]

That was then. I believe, Nobunari Oda's been practising 4Lz for a while. The 4Lz BV is 11.8 these days. The BV of Oda's 3Lz+3T+2Lo combo is 11.5. The potential (sound) difference is in the GOEs. Why would Oda risk it all in a major competition if he's better off avoiding it?

Anyways, skating is so much more than that one overrated trick.

 

[antmanb]

That was then. I believe, Nobunari Oda's been practising 4Lz for a while. The 4Lz BV is 11.8 these days. The BV of Oda's 3Lz+3T+2Lo combo is 11.5. The potential (sound) difference is in the GOEs. Why would Oda risk it all in a major competition if he's better off avoiding it?

Anyways, skating is so much more than that one overrated trick.

I guess the gamble is that there nothing to stop Oda using the 3Lz+3T+2Lo (or the 3a+3T+3Lo he did at 2007 worlds) and attempting the 4Lz as well. Weiss came pretty close to landing the 4Lz as did Pluschenko. Certainly the quad lutz has been attempted in competition unlike the 4Lo or 4F.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Browning was indeed credited with the landing of the first quad toe. Here's the program: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE7xKCudlII it had a double three turn on the landing. Is that mistake such more less than Weiss's two footing on his quad lutz attempt in 1998 Nagaon Olympics?Ant

Good point. I'm not sure how the CoP would rate that. Transitions after landing?

Weiss should have stayed around for the CoP.:agree:

Joe

 

[Mathman]

I'm not sure how the CoP would rate that. Transitions after landing?

 

[goldenpleasures]

Certainly the quad lutz has been attempted in competition unlike the 4Lo or 4F.

I believe a Chinese skater (don't know his name) landed the 4F in a fairly minor competition a couple of years ago. No Youtube, but I'm pretty sure it was ratified. Of course it hasn't been landed in major competition, or even attempted, as you say.

 

[antmanb]

I believe a Chinese skater (don't know his name) landed the 4F in a fairly minor competition a couple of years ago. No Youtube, but I'm pretty sure it was ratified. Of course it hasn't been landed in major competition, or even attempted, as you say.

Really? I hadn't even heard that a quad flip had been attempted in competition let alone landed. Do you remember which competition?

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I believe a Chinese skater (don't know his name) landed the 4F in a fairly minor competition a couple of years ago. No Youtube, but I'm pretty sure it was ratified. Of course it hasn't been landed in major competition, or even attempted, as you say.

Come to think of it I believe Dobrin did a 4Flip but 2 footed it in a Euros.

Joe

 

[Hsuhs]

Here's a full (?) list of who attempted what, and when:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_(figure_skating)

 

[calica]

4L is practised by Lambiel and Joubert also but they do not do in competition .......... it is very risky.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

4L is practised by Lambiel and Joubert also but they do not do in competition .......... it is very risky.

They are both keen jumpers, but I could see either one skimming the ice a full turn on the ice and just make it a triple. Why not? prerotations are not penalized.

Joe

 

[goldenpleasures]

Really? I hadn't even heard that a quad flip had been attempted in competition let alone landed. Do you remember which competition?

Ant

Sorry, no. I just remember reading it somewhere reputable.

They are both keen jumpers, but I could see either one skimming the ice a full turn on the ice and just make it a triple. Why not? prerotations are not penalized.

Joe

Pre-rotations are sometimes penalised, especially if they're really blatant.

 

[mskater93]

Browning was indeed credited with the landing of the first quad toe. Here's the program: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE7xKCudlII it had a double three turn on the landing. Is that mistake such more less than Weiss's two footing on his quad lutz attempt in 1998 Nagaon Olympics?

Ant

A double three turn on the landing with an otherwise clean edge is still a clean jump, just slow on the check with the front arm that causes it (usually). Two foot is NOT a clean jump (just ask Johnny Weir at Worlds) and will likely get you a downgrade internationally, so yes that mistake is so much less than Weiss. I believe the penalty for a double three turn out of a jump landing is -1 (minimum) under IJS.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Under 6.0, double-footed jumps were not ratified. IIRC, USFS first ratified a 4Lz attempt by Michael Weiss at US Nationals, but later decided it was two-footed and "unratified" it. Under CoP (2007-8 rules), a two-footed landing on a fully rotated quad costs -2 GOE and total GOE must be negative. -2 off of 9 base points is still 7 points, or more than the base value of any triple except the 3A. Weir received 1.57 points for his quad attempts because it was underrotated and downgraded to a triple (4 base points), from which -GOE of 2.43 was deducted. Had he rotated the jump, he would have received 6.57 points, or more than a base 3Lz (6 points)

It's too bad Weiss spent so much time on the 4Lz. It may well have affected his 3Lz timing in the SP at 2003 Worlds. He had already won his qualifying round, and he lost a chance at the title with a fall on the 3Lz. Until that jump, the quality of his program was unsurpassed. I'm not a big fan of his, but I was shocked at how great he was until the fall.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^

Hockeyfan - What would Weiss' attempt at quad lz have gotten him if it were scored in CoP?

Joe

 

[gkelly]

What would Weiss' attempt at quad lz have gotten him if it were scored in CoP?

Which attempt? The one at 98 Nationals?

Note that the point values for quads -- and for the negative GOEs for those jumps -- has been changed for next year.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/200809-SP-SOV.pdf

So the actual point values would be different using the 2007-08 scale of values than using the 2008-09 values.

With not quite full rotation and touchdown by the free toe, the question is whether the jump would have been downgraded or not.

If not, then full base value for the quadruple lutz, and -1 to -2 GOE.

If downgraded, then base value for a triple lutz and -2 to -3.

Choose which year's scale of values you want to use and do the math yourself.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Which attempt? The one at 98 Nationals?

Note that the point values for quads -- and for the negative GOEs for those jumps -- has been changed for next year.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/200809-SP-SOV.pdf

So the actual point values would be different using the 2007-08 scale of values than using the 2008-09 values.

With not quite full rotation and touchdown by the free toe, the question is whether the jump would have been downgraded or not.

If not, then full base value for the quadruple lutz, and -1 to -2 GOE.

If downgraded, then base value for a triple lutz and -2 to -3.

Choose which year's scale of values you want to use and do the math yourself.

According to HF above, his attempt at a 4z was ratified and then unratified because of two foot landing. What year Nats? I don't know/

It always seemed to me that he either made the rotations or came close to them. he may have been competitive in the CoP era.

Joe