The Underrotated Jumps of Evgenia Medvedeva
- Thread starter Blades of Passion
- Start date
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
The GOE is not ridiculous. You have a list of features, the skater checks those features off, they get +GOE.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2003
Carolina's 3 toe does have the so called "pre-rotation" that you guys been talking about. You can clearly see it. She turns 1/2 on the ice. I don't see the difference among the skaters you guys accuse of pre-rotating and Carolina Kostner's triple Toe.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I honestly don't mind prerotations so long as a whole rotation isn't being done on the ice. I know this may be incorrect, but I'm getting tired of how crazily and selectively obsessed we are getting with jumps. That's why I was happy when they gave some leeway by creating a new UR category that doesn't call for an automatic downgrade. I'm all about correct jump technique and think we should encourage it, but some times I think it goes way too far and becomes too much a part of the fandom. It's like people are forcing their own obsessive compulsion onto this sport to the point where the enjoyment is actually looking at and debating protocols rather than actually watching the performance. I sincerely apologize in advance if that statement offends anyone. Again, probably incorrect, I'd like to see the judges simply use their discretion to take off GOE or not. Yes it will result in more inconsistent judging and results, but I don't mind a little subjective human element in figure skating. However, if people want skating judging to be as accurate as possible rather than waste time teaching judges and callers to look out for such things, resources and time would be better spent on developing technology to measure the pre-rotation and landing rotation of every jump. That way, nobody can argue anymore. Although, I'm sure there will be some debates as to when the jump should start being measured and where the landing should actually take place and whether the measuring happened too early/late on both the start of the rotation and the end of the rotation.
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It is ridiculous because those features should be -GOE. Ugliness should not be rewarded.
But there should be a boundary.
I'm not a nitpicker.
I think pre-rotation less 90 degree for toe jumps and less 180 degree for edge jumps are reasonable.
Flutz is not "do or don't".
90 degree edge angle called "!"
Less 90 degree edge angle called "Error"
There is a boundary.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Can anyone show me a 3/3 loop combo where the second loop isn't crazily pre-rotated?
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2003
well, I agree to a point. but how are the coaches supposed to teach students not to leave your toe pick on the ice more than 90 degrees? You can't see with your naked eyes unlike flutzing or lipping, it happens so fast. I think some skaters needs that prerotation to vault to the air, like the edge jump, to be able to do the toe jumps.
I think we are just nitpicking way way too much. some people are obsessed with them.
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2015
Ashley Wagner has been beaten up and denigrated for years for her under rotations and just about everything else under the sun. Check the Ashley Wagner thread or the Skate America thread for just a few of the down right nasty comments hurled her way.
Uhm, not sure we are meaning the same thing by prerotation...
The discussion has been about pre-rotation on the toe pick itself during the take off on toe assisted jumps. We are not meaning rotation on the ice by the skating leg prior to take off from the pick
...The issue is that a toe assisted jump should ideally have a clean spike up, not a torqued one. And it's most striking on the lutzes, but toe-loops can and should be clean too...
There was considerable analysis of this regarding mens' 3Lzs recently. And on that thread we could see in slow motion there were shown to be skaters such as Yusu who had a clean unrotated launch off the pick, vs others who did not. So, the "it's just the way they learned the jump" isn't a compelling argument for many of us.
I'm not so sure about the Carolina 3T example at 1:27 ....it's difficult at the angle we have to be sure....
BOP offered Kaetlyn Osmond's FS 3T-3T from SC as a cleaner example. Look at it at 0:51.. but would be best to have a slow motion version which I cannot produce....
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OLX-1hdu7oE
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- Mar 26, 2014
I guess, you came back for more leaving out numbers in the alias this time. So there would be no point to reply to same old stuff from you. The only thing that perplexed me, though, is who Sakamoto is. I know only one Sakomoto - Kaori. And she was not around last season so that the Russians could not spend the whole last season moaning about URs. Don't bother to answer - you showed one more time your level of understanding of the FS world. Chao....
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- Feb 13, 2014
Here for you http://i.giphy.com/l0MYEqtyAnIfCoR3O.gif
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- Oct 31, 2016
My mistake but Satoko Miyahara??ring a bell ?and thats all? No more to say? You dont get FS world, it is not only for Russians. Many people here thinks like me,so?Cheers
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- Joined
- Aug 15, 2003
We are talking about the same thing. you can see Carolina's toe pick turns 180 degrees turns on the ice before taking off. You can also see Kaetlyn's 3 flip does the same if you slow down the youtube video.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2012
Are you a new poster? hm..
Not seeing rotation on the pick to the degree you claim in the slowed gif from Meioma for Kaetlyn...
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- Aug 15, 2003
watch the youtube video and slow down the speed. There is a speed control setting on youtube. you can see clearly her toe pick turns 180 degrees.
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- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
Carolina 3F: http://i.giphy.com/l3vR6XG6G9Wc5w092.gif
Tara Lipninski 3F: http://i.giphy.com/3oriOcxY8t9PyvFlx6.gif
Where is the 180 degree?
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
Well it should be 180 degrees as the set amount, not 90. Although if someone can do toepick jumps with just 90 degrees pre-rotation (mainly the Lutz and Flip, it's not exactly ideal for the Toeloop), that's great. It's not hard to teach either, every skater with correct technique already does this. The skater needs to be taught to stay straighter during the takeoff and vault with the free leg, rather than dragging around to spin off the ice. 90 degrees as the minimum could be taught even for toepick jumps, but I don't think that much restriction is necessary, even if it is how the Lutz and Flip should really be done.
Eric Millot 3Lo+3Lo
Kurt Browning 3S+3Lo
These were the first ones ever done in competition and they managed to do it back when there wasn't extra technology to help take apart and analyze jumps.
This makes no sense at all. Yes, many ladies are doing something that is WRONG. Just because something is popular, that doesn't make it right. Just because something harmful is legal, that doesn't mean it should remain that way. It doesn't take that much time to scrutinize jumps. The pre-rotations are a big issue mostly on the back-end part of jump combinations (but jump techniques from people like Satako Miyahara and Shoma Uno, who pre-rotate their Lutz and Flip more than 180 degrees, also need to be scrutinized). Moreover, if this was actually STANDARDIZED by the ISU, then it would start resolving itself.
Evgenia isn't getting extra scrutiny. EVERYONE else already gets scrutinized and the issues of UR's from people like Wagner are something that has constantly been talked about for a long time. And she is getting correct calls on her jumps, for the most part. But now with Evgenia we have a VERY clear example of a wrong call being made based on reputation and of incorrect technique being rewarded. Her 3S+3T at Skate Canada is indefensible (barely more than 2 rotations in the air) and her 3F+3T on the second part of the combination wasn't much better in terms of the rotation, it was just landed cleanly.
This is a huge problem for the entire sport because many of the Junior level skaters are doing it and it's just seen as normal. This will be a never-ending outcry until it is fixed in the ISU rules and until the tech panels start making correct calls. Bad technique like this can not be allowed to persist. Both because it is less pleasing visually and because it is unfair to other people who are actually getting MORE rotation (and amplitude) in their jumps, via their correct technique, and then getting crazily punished for slight underrotations, while the people with worse technique who are rotating less are not punished and are able to be more consistent at the same time.
Also, Medvedeva's jumps are not at all more rotated than Murakami's were. Stop your usual routine of trying to use the protocol sheets as some kind of infallible defense (and you pick and choose when to do this, which makes it entirely hypocritical). Murakami was frequently called for UR's on toeloops and loops that were within 90 degrees of fully rotated, simply because she was labelled as a skater who didn't have great overall jump technique. 2011 Worlds, 2012 Skate Canada (this competition ESPECIALLY and this jump especially being called was ludicrous), 2013 Worlds, and 2014 Worlds are all examples people can look at and see.
Look at ANY of Murakami's 3Toe+3Toe combinations from start to finish and they have equal or better rotation than any of Medvedeva's +3Toe combinations. Not to mention having more height too. The same can be said for many of Rika Hongo's jumps at this recent competition too - her 3Toe+3Toe in the SP was better rotated than Medvedeva's combination and her 2Axel+3Toe in the LP was better rotated than Medvedeva's 3Sal+3Toe, yet the calls were opposite of this. Then of course the lunacy of Hongo's 3F+3T being called as << and Medvedeva's getting full credit, when in reality Medveda's combo was only a few degrees more rotated.
