The Underrotated Jumps of Evgenia Medvedeva

[ks777]

Carolina 3F: http://i.giphy.com/l3vR6XG6G9Wc5w092.gif
Tara Lipninski 3F: http://i.giphy.com/3oriOcxY8t9PyvFlx6.gif

Where is the 180 degree?

Please read my post carefully. I said her 3 toe.

 

[Meoima]

Well it should be 180 degrees as the set amount, not 90. Although if someone can do toepick jumps with just 90 degrees pre-rotation (mainly the Lutz and Flip, it's not exactly ideal for the Toeloop), that's great. It's not hard to teach either, every skater with correct technique already does this. The skater needs to be taught to stay straighter during the takeoff and vault with the free leg, rather than dragging around to spin off the ice. 90 degrees as the minimum could be taught even for toepick jumps, but I don't think that much restriction is necessary, even if it is how the Lutz and Flip should really be done.

How many degrees is this?
http://i.giphy.com/3o7TKJs5F0reh3xR0A.gif

 

[Meoima]

Please read my post carefully. I said her 3 toe.

Second jump in combination always gets more lenient call. If it's the first jump in combination, it's another story.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Well it should be 180 degrees as the set amount, not 90. Although if someone can do toepick jumps with just 90 degrees pre-rotation (mainly the Lutz and Flip, it's not exactly ideal for the Toeloop), that's great. It's not hard to teach either, every skater with correct technique already does this. The skater needs to be taught to stay straighter during the takeoff and vault with the free leg, rather than dragging around to spin off the ice. 90 degrees as the minimum could be taught even for toepick jumps, but I don't think that much restriction is necessary, even if it is how the Lutz and Flip should really be done.



Eric Millot 3Lo+3Lo

Kurt Browning 3S+3Lo

These were the first ones ever done in competition and they managed to do it back when there wasn't extra technology to help take apart and analyze jumps.

There still seemed to be prerotation going on. Browning's loop seemed almost 180 turn. Are those acceptable in loop jumps?

Bestolen proposes that less than 180 should be acceptable for edge jumps. Do you think that's reasonable? Also, Kurt's Salchow seems really prerotated to me, but it looks very similar to most skaters I've seen who use that Salchow entry.

 

[ks777]

How many degrees is this?
http://i.giphy.com/3o7TKJs5F0reh3xR0A.gif

180 degree. why are you so obsessed with pre-rotation? you should post every skater's jump in slo-mo instead of a certain skaters to nitpick.

 

[ks777]

Second jump in combination always gets more lenient call. If it's the first jump in combination, it's another story.

You can't make your own rules if you are going to criticize. It needs to apply to every jump.

 

[Meoima]

180 degree. why are you so obsessed with pre-rotation? you should post every skater's jump in slo-mo instead of a certain skaters to nitpick.

I have posted so many gifs of so many skaters from time to time, it's not my fault you only focus on a certain skater ok?
And please it's 270 degrees.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

How many degrees is this?
http://i.giphy.com/3o7TKJs5F0reh3xR0A.gif

It seems less than 180 before the toe picks in and then becomes 180 right at launch shortly after the toe hits the ice. Or are we differentiating before and after the toe pick sets in and saying what really matters is the prerotation after the toe picks in? Does it start from 0 from where the blade is placed right when the toe hits the ice and we're measuring from there?

 

[Meoima]

You can't make your own rules if you are going to criticize. It needs to apply to every jump.

I do not make my own rules, it is known that the second jump in combination is less scruntized than the first jump in combination or the solo jump. I am merely stating it.

 

[ks777]

I have posted so many gifs of so many skaters from time to time, it's not my fault you only focus on a certain skater ok?
And please it's 270 degrees.

you have only posted a certain skaters. and it's not 270 degrees. It's 180 degrees.

 

[ks777]

It seems less than 180 before the toe picks in and then becomes 180 right at launch shortly after the toe hits the ice. Or are we differentiating before and after the toe pick sets in and saying what really matters is the prerotation after the toe picks in? Does it start from 0 from where the blade is placed right when the toe hits the ice and we're measuring from there?

I don't know but this poster's obsession with Shoma and Satoko is getting ridiculous.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I remember reading that a lot of Arakawa's doubles were heavily pre-rotated, especially in her 3/2/2 combos.

 

[Blades of Passion]

There still seemed to be prerotation going on. Browning's loop seemed almost 180 turn. Are those acceptable in loop jumps?

Yes that is normal. It's just when it is more that it becomes an issue. They also landed completely backwards too, which Medvedeva is not doing, especially in that 3Sal+3Toe where she was a full 1/4 turn short in addition to being nearly a full extra 1/4 turn pre-rotated.

How many degrees is this?
http://i.giphy.com/3o7TKJs5F0reh3xR0A.gif

At least 225 pre-rotated (5/8 of a turn). This is a perfect case example of how pre-rotation needs to be dealt with. The skater is "cheating" an extra 1/8 turn on the entrance, which means there needs to be 1/8 less allowance on the landing of the jump. At Skate America his Quad Flips were within that amount, so it's "okay". Not a great 4Flip, but a sufficient one nonetheless.

 

[TGee]

There still seemed to be prerotation going on. Browning's loop seemed almost 180 turn. Are those acceptable in loop jumps?

Bestolen proposes that less than 180 should be acceptable for edge jumps. Do you think that's reasonable? Also, Kurt's Salchow seems really prerotated to me, but it looks very similar to most skaters I've seen who use that Salchow entry.

We've been looking at the rotation on the pick itself.....or at least I have. The jump rotations ideally should all take place once the pick is out of the ice.

 

[Meoima]

you have only posted a certain skaters. and it's not 270 degrees. It's 180 degrees.

This http://i.giphy.com/l3vR6xIeO9dCfgy4g.gif
vs this http://i.giphy.com/3o7TKJs5F0reh3xR0A.gif

 

[riminin]

I read some interesting reports of a recent lecture on FS judging near Tokyo held by an international judge (a Japanese professor) . According to him the judges don't basically call prerotations on jumps and they certainly don't use slow motions to check them. They'd only DG a jump if the prerotation of the upper body is apparently visible when observed at the actual speed. Underrotations are easy to spot for experienced judges and their suspicions are almost always confirmed by video replays (slow-mo, revers slow-mo, super slow-mo) . If the UR is just at 90 degrees it'll be decided in favor of the skater. Technical judges are so totally absorbed in judging the technical details they are sometimes not even able to remember what music a skater was skating to in what costume.

 

[gotoschool]

I read some interesting reports of a recent lecture on FS judging near Tokyo held by an international judge (a Japanese professor) . According to him the judges don't basically call prerotations on jumps and they certainly don't use slow motions to check them. They'd only DG a jump if the prerotation of the upper body is apparently visible when observed at the actual speed. Underrotations are easy to spot for experienced judges and their suspicions are almost always confirmed by video replays (slow-mo, revers slow-mo, super slow-mo) . If the UR is just at 90 degrees it'll be decided in favor of the skater. Technical judges are so totally absorbed in judging the technical details they are sometimes not even able to remember what music a skater was skating to in what costume.How

I appreciate the insight about how urs are measured. I realize you are giving information that is not necessarily your opinion, so I am just commenting on my thoughts about that information. I am no expert but in the name of accuracy of measurement I think it is erroneous to call a jump under-rotated if the actual rotation of the jump isn't measured from take off to landing so to my mind the term easy to spot an under-rotation is completely non-sensical and mathematically inaccurate since they never even look at the take off. That's why I view the ur calls on Mao's 3F in her SP and 3 lutz in her LP along with negative GOE as totally unjust when some skaters who have a lot more pre-rotation end up having less less total rotation (sometimes a lot less) than Mao yet are getting no ur calls and positive GOE. Rika also seemed to be judged harshly since she got full downgrades as well. To get an idea of what the actual score should be with under-rotations measured accurately, I feel that I am left to either ignore tech scoring on jumps completely or to calculate them myself based on looking at the actual take off and landings which isn't hard to see in instant replay and counting anything with less than 2 1/4 as ur and anything 2 1/4 or more as rotated (180 degrees for pre-rotation and the permissible 90 degrees short of total rotation anywhere along the circumference of rotation so as not to discriminate against those with less pre-rotation which is a highly aesthetic feature of a jump that should be rewarded not punished). Under this more accurate assessment of actual total rotation, Mao's 3F and 3 lutz at Skate America both had more than 2 1/4 rotations, with the 3F having close to 2 1/2 rotations, while Evgenia's backend 3F / 3T and 3S / 3T had about 2 rotations, so the ur calls and GOE should be reversed.

In addition, Mao's deflation is extended to her step sequence and PCS scores, which I believe should be higher instead of considerably lower than Evgenia's and other skaters like Ashley's, so the contradictory rulings on the ur calls are part of a pervasive pattern of Mao's underscoring all while she has a left knee injury.

 

[mish]

topic:

I found an interesting picture of Zhenya:
https://pp.vk.me/c636518/v636518712/2f77c/fdJ5_1YaS8s.jpg

Look at the shape of her calf - seems like she has the same fast-twitch muscle fibers as Jamaican sprinters and athletes in high jumping sports (basketball, long jump, high jump etc..)

 

[OS]

Geez... is that what we come to now? the shape of calf determines jump rotation? (looks at own calf and shook head)

 

[gmyers]

Criticisms of the tech calls (or the lack thereof) and judges' decisions do not equal to attack to a skater. I have not seen one post in here that attacks Evgenia on a personal note and I do, personally, think that she is a great person and a very very hardworking athlete. She has been praised for her good qualities (consistency, charm, great talent, dedication, etc) in here and other threads. I don't get the "hater" accusations. No one hates her. She is in fact adored by many including myself. Unfortunately, her flaws are, a lot of times, overlooked. Not only her but whoever the judges favor at the moment. While other skaters get nitpicked to death and gets questionable calls and low GOEs for some reason. It's unfair to those who work just as hard. This isn't about Evgenia. It's about the ridiculous scoring as it has always been.

The problem is when only one skater is used to point out a system failing and the op doing the same thing to sotnikova. There is an ethnic based attack going on.