The Underrotated Jumps of Evgenia Medvedeva

[Meoima]

Isn't that exactly the problem people are discussing here and other threads?
Because that's the fault of the current scoring system (and how judges/tech panel use it) that people are having issues with.
Skaters will try to work around the current rules (or lack thereof) to win. And as a result, we have skaters with less than ideal technique being rewarded equally or more than those who have better/more correct technique.

After Sochi, there was so much debate about Flutzes and Lips. I remember that edge call deductions became harsher after the Olympics that skaters avoided Lutzes and Flips and instead, tried other 3-3 combos to avoid big deduction. I believe when excessive pre-rotation is given an appropriate deduction, skaters and their team will try to fix it. And skaters with better technique will be rewarded more as they should be.

Yeah. I am kind of fed up with jumps with excessive Pre rotation get huge GOE the same with jumps with almost no pre rotation. And people go around calling this kind of technique as "correct" and "phenomenon jumps". :roll9: of course you're on the air less than other skaters with better technique, you're more consistent than them.

 

[Dr. Jenn]

Turning 180 degrees (1/2 turn) on the takeoff is fine, it's when people go further that it needs to start being deducted. Medvedeva does 3/4 of a turn on the ice on her toeloops, or even more sometimes. She often isn't landing perfectly backwards after doing that either. I don't want to be to ultra-strict about it, but it's simply unavoidable. You can't give full credit to a jump that has barely more than than 2 rotations in the air, such as on her 3S+3T combo. Give benefit of the doubt to her "good executions" even though they aren't textbook, sure, but don't give huge +GOE and don't ignore her blatantly flawed executions.

Other people have put a lot of hard work into their skating and are showing a better athletic display in their jumps, using their legs and the blade, not just by having ultra-slim bodies and dragging their toepick around to squeeze out somewhere between 2.1 to 2.2 rotations in the air and thinking it's actually a Triple jump.

I completely agree with this. Even if you can't notice the extra rotation on the ice (which some people can, even without slow-mo replays), it is very obvious that Evgenia really muscles her jumps using her upper body. She is essentially jumping with her arms, rather than her legs (in contrast to someone like Liza). I am not a skater, but I am pretty sure that this technique only works because she is so slim. I can't imagine that such a technique would work for someone like Kaetlyn or Ashley, for instance.

 

[plushyfan]

I completely agree with this. Even if you can't notice the extra rotation on the ice (which some people can, even without slow-mo replays), it is very obvious that Evgenia really muscles her jumps using her upper body. She is essentially jumping with her arms, rather than her legs (in contrast to someone like Liza). I am not a skater, but I am pretty sure that this technique only works because she is so slim. I can't imagine that such a technique would work for someone like Kaetlyn or Ashley, for instance.

This is the reason why starves her Eteri....

 

[MiaMalina]

This is the reason why starve her Eteri....

Eteri is actually duct taping their mouths to starve them. Then she teach them cheating jumping technique. And then she pays all isu judges to make them overscore. Yep.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I can't imagine that such a technique would work for someone like Kaetlyn or Ashley, for instance.

https://youtu.be/_z2Dk46VCjA?t=1m42s

I actually think Ashley PR more than Zhenia on the 3t and she also does it on both jumps about as bad as anyone. I also think people are going way to far with this. I thought the jumpamatron I made of Zhenia's 3f-3t a few pages back showed very expclitly that Zhenya was doing two triple jumps. Maybe a stingy judge would give it -GOE and that's fine but let's not kill the entire sport here over 15 degrees of rotation.

TBH I kinda wish the tech panel would flag any jump they felt deserved UR or PR and replayed it for the judges. From here it should prompt the judge to select whether or not it gets downgraded with the majority winning. It should also prompt the judge to reassign GOE. I'd rather a lot of judges get in on the process than the smaller tech panel and I'm sorry but other than -GOE I see no reason Zhenia shouldn't be getting full credit. Heck other than a few circumstances I feel the same about Satoko. It should be reflected in the GOE and I'd go as far as to say it should effect the PCS scores

 

[Dr. Jenn]

https://youtu.be/_z2Dk46VCjA?t=1m42s

I actually think Ashley PR more than Zhenia on the 3t and she also does it on both jumps about as bad as anyone. I also think people are going way to far with this. I thought the jumpamatron I made of Zhenia's 3f-3t a few pages back showed very expclitly that Zhenya was doing two triple jumps. Maybe a stingy judge would give it -GOE and that's fine but let's not kill the entire sport here over 15 degrees of rotation.

TBH I kinda wish the tech panel would flag any jump they felt deserved UR or PR and replayed it for the judges. From here it should prompt the judge to select whether or not it gets downgraded with the majority winning. It should also prompt the judge to reassign GOE. I'd rather a lot of judges get in on the process than the smaller tech panel and I'm sorry but other than -GOE I see no reason Zhenia shouldn't be getting full credit. Heck other than a few circumstances I feel the same about Satoko. It should be reflected in the GOE and I'd go as far as to say it should effect the presentation scores

I apologize if I was unclear: I was referring to jumping with one's arms. I don't think that particular technique would work for anyone other than particularly petite skaters.

I agree that both prerotations and underrotations should be reviewed and penalized accordingly.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I completely agree with this. Even if you can't notice the extra rotation on the ice (which some people can, even without slow-mo replays), it is very obvious that Evgenia really muscles her jumps using her upper body. She is essentially jumping with her arms, rather than her legs (in contrast to someone like Liza). I am not a skater, but I am pretty sure that this technique only works because she is so slim. I can't imagine that such a technique would work for someone like Kaetlyn or Ashley, for instance.

Er, using your arms to generate torque is a critical aspect of jumping technique, especially in the ladies where it is physically harder to generate enough height to get sufficient rotation. And ironically, in doing tanos, Medvedeva is relying less on using her arms to get more stability and a tighter rotation. I know you're referring to her 3T, but unless you've got the speed/height of a Kim or Kostner or Osmond, using your arms will be more critical in smaller frame skaters (see Lipnitskaia).

I don't think it's particularly attractive torquing your arms like that, but I don't think it diminishes the jump. The same way I don't find Mao's flip entry or Kovtun's quad entries particularly graceful but it's not "wrong" either.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I actually think Ashley PR more than Zhenia on the 3t and she also does it on both jumps about as bad as anyone. I also think people are going way to far with this. I thought the jumpamatron I made of Zhenia's 3f-3t a few pages back showed very expclitly that Zhenya was doing two triple jumps. Maybe a stingy judge would give it -GOE and that's fine but let's not kill the entire sport here over 15 degrees of rotation.

One degree of difference can make a huge impact in the scoring of the element because the penalty for < and << is very severe. I just think that if the tech panels are going to be sticklers about rotation at the end of the jump, they should be at the beginning as well. A skater should be airborne for the entire duration between 180 degrees after the start to 90 degrees from the end. If they are not in the air at any point in that range, the jump is deficient.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Er, using your arms to generate torque is a critical aspect of jumping technique, especially in the ladies where it is physically harder to generate enough height to get sufficient rotation. And ironically, in doing tanos, Medvedeva is relying less on using her arms to get more stability and a tighter rotation. I know you're referring to her 3T, but unless you've got the speed/height of a Kim or Kostner or Osmond, using your arms will be more critical in smaller frame skaters (see Lipnitskaia).

It is possible to get great height with a small frame. Here is a 3F at ice level by an 11 year old prodigy named Adelina. You can pause the video at the peak of the jump and see she clears the entire yellow part of the boards in the background:
https://youtu.be/sAz8bwqhcTI?t=53s
So the young, slender skaters can do it, they just aren't because it impacts consistency.

 

[gmyers]

There is no ethnic based attack going on. I criticize people equally from everywhere. You simply have a huge problem with Russian skaters being criticized and blatantly wrong judging in favor of Russians being pointed out. Continue to bury your head in the sand if you want; trying to use Sotnikova as an example of bias on my part will get you nowhere. Her underrotated jump, flutz, and step sequence mistakes at the Olympics (in addition to an inaccurate step sequence call for her competitor) still haven't changed and everyone knows it was wrong.

But why ignore everyone else? Judges didn't make mistakes with anyone else? You only care to look at sotnikova and medvedeva because of an agenda. You find mistakes where you want them to be.

 

[plushyfan]

Eteri is actually duct taping their mouths to starve them. Then she teach them cheating jumping technique. And then she pays all isu judges to make them overscore. Yep.

Sure.:hslap:

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Her underrotated jump, flutz, and step sequence mistakes at the Olympics (in addition to an inaccurate step sequence call for her competitor) still haven't changed and everyone knows it was wrong.

You are the only person I've ever seen to advocate:
1) Adelina's step sequence was assessed wrong
2) Yuna's step sequence was wrong
3) Yuna's second lutz was not under rotated. In fact, you invented a position that it wasn't because she had enough pre-rotation to offset that she was short on the landing. You did not once in your history of previous posts ever advocate for rotation to be assessed this way, because it is not how the rule is written. You argued this simply to uphold your opinion that the outcome was wrong.

You can continue dragging up Sochi but "everyone does not know it was wrong" for the reasons you state, but merely because the favorite didn't win. Basically any objective observer agrees that Adelina was "e" and < on the combo, and Yuna was < on the second lutz.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

One degree of difference can make a huge impact in the scoring of the element because the penalty for < and << is very severe. I just think that if the tech panels are going to be sticklers about rotation at the end of the jump, they should be at the beginning as well. A skater should be airborne for the entire duration between 180 degrees after the start to 90 degrees from the end. If they are not in the air at any point in that range, the jump is deficient.

I think I'm to the point where I don't trust the panels to make fair and consistent calls so I just want to remove power from them anywhere possible. I think they should simply flag what gets reviewed and let the judges watch the review and decide whether carrots or - GOE is appropriate. Majority wins. I think people are really getting carried away with this.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think I'm to the point where I don't trust the panels to make fair and consistent calls so I just want to remove power from them anywhere possible. I think they should simply flag what gets reviewed and let the judges watch the review and decide whether carrots or - GOE is appropriate. Majority wins. I think people are really getting carried away with this.

It's not an exact science, but the scoring system tries to treat it like one. I do like the idea of judges reviewing it for GOE and the tech panel making a rotation deduction.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

It's not an exact science, but the scoring system tries to treat it like one. I do like the idea of judges reviewing it for GOE and the tech panel making a rotation deduction.

I think the TP should make the call for rotation issues but I still think the majority of judges need to confirm the call upon review. In that case the TP would make recommendations but the judges must agree. It would really be common sense check and balance.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think the TP should make the call for rotation issues but I still think the majority of judges need to confirm the call upon review. In that case the TP would make recommendations but the judges must agree. It would really be common sense check and balance.

The drawback, of course, is how much it would slow down the scoring of the event, especially for a skater like Mirai who can have almost every one of her jumping passes reviewed.

 

[TGee]

I think the TP should make the call for rotation issues but I still think the majority of judges need to confirm the call upon review. In that case the TP would make recommendations but the judges must agree. It would really be common sense check and balance.

How long are folks willing to wait for scores?

From my experience at lower levels of competition (as an announcer sitting beyond the data folks at the end of the stand), the tech controllers can spend significant time looking at different angles of an element while the skater is on the ice, but have to move on and come back after the skate.

Others have mentioned that the callers can be so focused on assessing and calling the elements that they are not aware of the performance. I can certainly attest that they are very focused on making the call, and flagging questionable elements for further review at the end of the skate.

I can't imagine the judges getting the GOE assessed if they also had to make that level of scrutiny on the technical calls as well unless a large proportion of the evaluations were left to reviews after the skate.

We've discussed this on other threads that more thorough tech reviews hold up what are already long live competitions. Some have suggested holding all the scores until the end. I don't think that it would be welcomed by skaters or their coaches, let alone the audiences.

Here's another idea.....what if there were more technical callers, especially for the pairs and dance where the technical team has to follow two skaters? Say 5 total?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Can't we make better use of the Jumbotron and just get the scores right? If more time brings fairer results I'm all for it and I'll even offer to make some video entertainment for free for the ISU to play during the in between skater moments. Some cool personal stories of the skaters would be really interesting and maybe bridge some of the gaps in fans who tend to only support one skater or nation. Even some interviews from skaters in the event could give the judges and TP time to assess everything and would in turn be a fun way for fans to get to know the athletes. I don't know.....just a trying to turn a negative into a positive type of thing.

 

[Meoima]

How long are folks willing to wait for scores?

From my experience at lower levels of competition (as an announcer sitting beyond the data folks at the end of the stand), the tech controllers can spend significant time looking at different angles of an element while the skater is on the ice, but have to move on and come back after the skate.

Others have mentioned that the callers can be so focused on assessing and calling the elements that they are not aware of the performance. I can certainly attest that they are very focused on making the call, and flagging questionable elements for further review at the end of the skate.

I can't imagine the judges getting the GOE assessed if they also had to make that level of scrutiny on the technical calls as well unless a large proportion of the evaluations were left to reviews after the skate.

We've discussed this on other threads that more thorough tech reviews hold up what are already long live competitions. Some have suggested holding all the scores until the end. I don't think that it would be welcomed by skaters or their coaches, let alone the audiences.

Here's another idea.....what if there were more technical callers, especially for the pairs and dance where the technical team has to follow two skaters? Say 5 total?

We can look at the mark on ice to identify pre-rotationan and UR right? But judges and tech specialists don't do that as they don't want to waste too much time. Maybe we need more HD camera and very good sensors for biggest events?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The drawback, of course, is how much it would slow down the scoring of the event, especially for a skater like Mirai who can have almost every one of her jumping passes reviewed.

Not just Mirai/Murakami/etc. Even skaters who aren't prone to underrotations would have to have their takeoffs and landings all scrutinized. #LongestKissAndCryWaitsEVER

Really, every skater should skate, and the judges provide their PCS, and then we'll have the tech panel spend the next 2 hours scrutinizing landings, the judging panel reconvenes to apply their grade of execution on each jumping panel now that they know what is and isn't pre/under-rotation, and 3 hours after the competition scores will be released to the general public, along with accompanying screenshots of each takeoff/landing, and this will ENSURE the system works.

That's totally feasible and amenable to audience enjoyment of the event, right?