The "wrong edge" call in JGP events

[antmanb]

About men versus ladies, I might be wrong about this, but here is my opinion anyway. Certainly there are many ladies of present and past that could take off from the correct edge and do a lovely double or triple Lutz jump.

However (reserving the right to be wrong), it seems to me that they tend to come in on a straighter line than men typically do, especially at the end of the approach, which somewhat mitigates the effect, even when they manage a secure outside edge all the way to take-off.

When the top men do it, to me it seems like they have a tighter clockwise arc and a more pronounced lean right up to the second of launch, so that they seem to explode into the air in a way that violates the laws of physics (conservation of angular momentum, for instance, LOL).

If you blink it looks like a miracle that one instant they are gliding backwards on a clockwise circular arc without a care in the world, then suddenly, with a pick of the toe and a swing of the arms they are hurtling through the air spinning like a top in the other direction.

(The only thing better is Ilia Kulik doing a triple Axel.)

I'm not so sure about the men usually approaching from the sweeping BO edge. Since the early to mid 90s the triple lutz has been the staple jump from footwork for any leading contender (from the staple 3A/3 (or 2)T, 3Lz, 2A jump layout before quads were allowed in the SP) right through to the mandatory axel becoming an optional double or triple, the most difficult triple after the axel being the lutz has usually meant a high number of them from steps in the SP. That being the case it was always straight line steps into the 3Lz which usually means some form of mohawk or turn with a cross in front for a short edge take off on the lutz to not lose marks for leaving too much space between the steps and take off of the jump. I always thought most men also used their steps in to triple lutz in the LP (off the top of my head Yags and Plush usually did). The man who i always think of doing a very strong outside edge into his lutz was Todd Eldredge - now that was a very pronounced BO edge with a very high pop up into the jump.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Ye gods a flawed statement on the internet. Who'da thunk it?

I always bow to you, your highness.

As well you should

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Ant - A learning lesson for me: 8 jumping passes:

Axel; Lutz; Flip; Toe loop; Loop; Salchow = 6 passes for the ladies.

1 combo: 3Ltz/3toe loop = 8.

and that's it. Another combo of two triples would be illegal.

However, a female skater could leave out the problematic loop jump and tack it onto a combo making it a 3combo which would still give the skater 8 passes.

No way can she do 9 legal passes. Am I correct?

Joe

Yes, sorry my wording was not clear and could cause confusion. The zayak rule simply says you can repeat two triples provided you do them in combination. I should have then separately said that if the women are only legally allowed 7 jumping passes (one juming pass may be a three jump combination or sequence and up to two more may be two jump combinations and/or sequences) and one of those jumping passes has to be an axel type jump then a lady could get 8 triples provided that she does one each of every triple and then does one 3/3 combination - exactly like in your example above Joe.

If a skater didn't want to try the solo triple loop but preferred to put it on the back half of a combination then in your example above - she would have to put it on the back of the triple lutz that you currently have with a triple toe on the back. With the coimbination the maximum of two triple jumps would then have been repeated so the only thing the skater could do is fill the one empty jumping pass with a double jump (preferably the axel to get the most points).

If a lady ever did 8 or 9 jumping passes then the technical panel would ignore them and no points would be recieved for those jumps...so if one of the ladies every wanted to include a nice high open axel for the sheer beauty of it, so long as she did it as her 8th jumping pass then it would count for the PCS but not the technical mark...i hope someone does this!

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Well one problem with figure skating judging (perhaps the biggest right now) is judging down to the audience. Since 1973 a huge amount of effort has gone into creating competitions whose results will be understandable to tv viewers who know and care nothing about the mechanics of skating. Is it any surprise that the basic technique of most skaters has deteriorated?

Audiences like lots o' jumps (and pretty girls) and mostly don't care about things like edge control anymore than they cared which skater could do a better paragraph loop.

So the problem is we have the two following skaters:
Sallymae Crockpot - 5 textbook triples and nice deep edges on spirals, well-centered fast spins but no contortionist moves, lots of intricate edge-based footwork
Lulubelle Skillet has 7 triples (including a Sarah Hughes style flutz and a toe-axel), Plushenko style footwork, travels at least three feet in any spin she does and can not only hold her leg over her head but bend it so that she can tuck her heel under her chin and hold that position with no hands, and she's cute as! a! bug's! ear!!!!

Judging according to traditional criteria Sallymae beats Lulubelle and the casual tv viewer is upset cause "that other little gal shore is pretty!" and "she was a lot more fun to watch!"

So the ISU retools COP so that Lulubelle and her followers can win ....

Need a new keyboard!

Ant

 

[Mathman]

I'm going from memory here but don't the GOE tables include landing on the wrong edge in the -GOE category too?

Yes, under current rules faulty landings are penalized in GOE, too, just like faulty take-offs are. Quite appropriately, IMHO.

The point I was trying to raise is that many posters feel -- quite sensibly -- that if your take-off edge is wrong, then you haven't done a Lutz at all. Why doesn't that same reasoning apply to the landing edge?

If you don't land properly on the outside edge of the opposite foot, then, by definition, you haven't done a Lutz. 0 credit for an unlisted jump that is neither Lutz nor flip nor anything else.

It seems to me that this should be the position of those who are concerned with the purity of the sport.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Yes, under current rules faulty landings are penalized in GOE, too, just like faulty take-offs are. Quite appropriately, IMHO.

The point I was trying to raise is that many posters feel -- quite sensibly -- that if your take-off edge is wrong, then you haven't done a Lutz at all. Why doesn't that same reasoning apply to the landing edge?

If you don't land properly on the outside edge of the opposite foot, then, by definition, you haven't done a Lutz. 0 credit for an unlisted jump that is neither Lutz nor flip nor anything else.

It seems to me that this should be the position of those who are concerned with the purity of the sport.

I don't think anyone doing a lutz would be comfortable not landing on a back outside edge. I would think cat-like balance would be required. Otherwise the jump would come to a standstill. It's kind of like a reverse Walley without the flow out. Can you name anyone who does this?

Coming up short of the landing, of course, meets up with the dreaded downgrade.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

I don't think anyone doing a lutz would be comfortable not landing on a back outside edge. I would think cat-like balance would be required. Otherwise the jump would come to a standstill. It's kind of like a reverse Walley without the flow out. Can you name anyone who does this?

Not on purpose. But I was just wondering, if your legs got tangled up, or you popped the jump and came down kerplunk on two feet -- it would still be called a Lutz jump.

What if you got so off balance that you landed on the wrong foot (the same foot as you took off from). Would the tech specialist call a toe-loop? (Maybe this would be impossible from a Lutz take-off?)

 

[antmanb]

I don't think anyone doing a lutz would be comfortable not landing on a back outside edge. I would think cat-like balance would be required. Otherwise the jump would come to a standstill. It's kind of like a reverse Walley without the flow out. Can you name anyone who does this?

Coming up short of the landing, of course, meets up with the dreaded downgrade.

Joe

I'm struggling to think of anyone who has done a reverse walley recently....maybe Mike Weiss doing a reverse walley/triple lutz?

As to landing on the back inside edge instead of the BO edge i can think of quite a few skaters who do this - Irina was the biggest culprit (hence the standstill landings) her triple flip was oftne prone to an inside edge landing.

Ant

 

[Mafke]

As to landing on the back inside edge instead of the BO edge i can think of quite a few skaters who do this - Irina was the biggest culprit (hence the standstill landings) her triple flip was oftne prone to an inside edge landing.

Didn't Elena Berezhnaya have a tendency to land on the inside edge too (especially on throw jumps)?

 

[antmanb]

Didn't Elena Berezhnaya have a tendency to land on the inside edge too (especially on throw jumps)?

Yes she did - i think the loop was usually ok but the salchow was quite often on that inside edge first.

Ant

 

[Mathman]

Heyday of the women's triple lutz:...

ITA. Not to mention, some of the best triple lutzes have been done by women. Tanja Szewczenko, Vika Volchkova, Maria Butyrskaya, and Tonya Harding have had lutzes that were better than even Elvis Stojko's. (Tanja's was especially high and beautiful).

I'm not so sure about the men usually approaching from the sweeping BO edge.

Well, I seem to be outnumbered on the issue of the essential manliness of the Lutz jump.

*sigh* What's next, they'll start letting women smoke cigars? A woman president?

 

[gkelly]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8a2i83jBok

There's a reverse walley into 3lutz at about 3:38 in this program.

There are also several shaky jump landings throughout the program that wobble between the inside and outside edge, although it's not always clear in real time whether the first edge that touches the ice is inside or outside.
See, e.g., the solo 3axel near the beginning of the program and the last landing of the three-jump combination ~3:00.

 

[Mathman]

Sallymae Crockpot - 5 textbook triples and nice deep edges on spirals, well-centered fast spins but no contortionist moves, lots of intricate edge-based footwork.

But Sallymae got her revenge at Torino, masquerading as Shizuka Arakawa.

(Granted she won the cute-as-a-bug's-ear trophy, too.)

 

[Mathman]

So we might have 3lutz by 3loop by 3 toe loop plus solo Axel; solo lutz; solo flip and solo salchow. Would that example work?

That's a great start. She has done five jumping passes so far. Now for her last two passes she could do 3F+2Lo and 2A for an unbeatable 8 triple program!

 

[hockeyfan228]

But Sallymae got her revenge at Torino, masquerading as Shizuka Arakawa.

(Granted she won the cute-as-a-bug's-ear trophy, too.)

Excuse me, but Shizuka Arakawa got her revenge at Torino doing only FOUR triples: that third lutz didn't count at all.

And the nerve of that woman -- and Sebestyen, et al -- who can hold a beautiful outside edge in a lutz, but couldn't be bothered to learn a proper flip on an inside edge. At least the flutzers are unable; the lippers should be ashamed of themselves.

(Of course, even getting 0 points for the last lutz, Arakawa still wins the gold medal )

 

[antmanb]

And the nerve of that woman -- and Sebestyen, et al -- who can hold a beautiful outside edge in a lutz, but couldn't be bothered to learn a proper flip on an inside edge. At least the flutzers are unable; the lippers should be ashamed of themselves.

Can i just clairfy whether your last sentance is just being sarcastic?

Ant

 

[chuckm]

Looking at the Ladies FS protocol, Nakamura got the edge ding for her underrotated 3Z---but she fell on it as well, so the ding had no effect. She got a total of 0.90 for the jump, which was totally erased by the deduction for the fall.

Kang got one for her 2F 3-jump combination and it cost her 0.23 points.

Takayama got one for her 2F; but she actually got a +0.01 GOE.

 

[Mathman]

Looking at the Ladies FS protocol, Nakamura got the edge ding for her underrotated 3Z---but she fell on it as well, so the ding had no effect. She got a total of 0.90 for the jump, which was totally erased by the deduction for the fall.

But other than the wrong edge, the underrotation, and the fall, how did the jump go for her?

(OK, that was mean. Go Ayane! With a strong fourth place in Vienna and the Germany event coming up, anything can happen.)

 

[capcomop]

Looking at the Ladies FS protocol, Nakamura got the edge ding for her underrotated 3Z---but she fell on it as well, so the ding had no effect. She got a total of 0.90 for the jump, which was totally erased by the deduction for the fall.

Ok but here is the scary thing about this system IMO. She took off from a wrong edge and underrotated the jump and got .90 for the jump! What?!?
Man had she stayed on feet and only double footed it or stepped out she might have actually gotten points for something that took off wrong, was wrong in the air, came down wrong and finished wrong!
This is like getting points for putting your name on the paper!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

This thread is getting wacky.

Take the definition of a Lutz
Take the definition of a Flip
Mix it up with the definition of an Attempt

Combine all ingredients and bake in an oven @ 450 degrees.

For the Icing, take the attempt at a camel but inadvertently falls into a sitsspin.

Now that's an Olympic Cake.

Joe