Top 10 Men in Skating History

[Mafke]

a fail? and by all means massive? surely only if you add Stephen Cousins to it too

Toller Cranston was one of the most creative and influential male skaters ever. Without him, it's entirely possible that John Curry wouldn't have made the impact he did. The only post WWII skater that's for sure more influential was Uncle Dick.

Plushenko shouldn't be on the list because he's still competing. An unspoken rule of this kind of list is that current competitors are left off.

 

[janetfan]

Toller Cranston was one of the most creative and influential male skaters ever. Without him, it's entirely possible that John Curry wouldn't have made the impact he did. The only post WWII skater that's for sure more influential was Uncle Dick.

Plushenko shouldn't be on the list because he's still competing. An unspoken rule of this kind of list is that current competitors are left off.

The list is from 2008 and Plushy actually was retired when the list first came out

 

[evangeline]

Elvis had a long career, and won 7 international medals to Illia's 2.
Ilia was more like a one trick poney. One great skate in his whole career.

I was never a big Elvis fan but would never count him out either.

Ilia Kulik had much more than one great skate in his whole career (if you mean besides 98 Olympics):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9e5WU_mevQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8V1eJQLEJ4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKJt9Rh28Xs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UWn_CHUhdk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOJYWm0fNNg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KOr627KB94&feature=related

Ilia had amazing jumps (in terms of a quad and the sheer quality of his jumps) and great presentation and choreography--to call him a one trick pony is a bit too much. OK, maybe he was missing the consistency bit until the 97-98 season, but Ilia was Olympic, European and Champion Series Final (i.e. GPF) champion despite being in the senior ranks for only one Olympic cycle. True, Ilia's not the most decorated skater out there, but he definitely won more than 2 international medals.

Anyways, I was just referring to a single event in my previous post--1998 Olympics. Based on the marks Ilia was getting all season leading up to the Olympics, I have little doubt in my mind that the judges would give the gold to Ilia if both Ilia and Elvis skated clean. And I would agree with the judges in that scenario.

 

[Blades of Passion]

He was and he did, IIRC Brian was buried in figures and made up ground in the SP and the long... and Scott's LP had one popped jump, hardly a disaster.

Scott's LP didn't have just one mistake.

He singled his Flip, fumbling the landing, and then doubled his Salchow.

The program was already highly inferior technically to what Orser and Boitano were doing at the time (and not that interesting artistically).

Color me unimpressed.

Orser should have won that Olympics. He was stronger in the SP and far stronger in the LP. Hamilton deserved to be marked 4th in the LP but the judges held him up.

When someone skates the best SP and best LP (Orser) at a competition and doesn't win, something is very wrong. It's not like Orser couldn't hold an edge and fell every 5 seconds during his school figures.

 

[janetfan]

Scott's LP didn't have just one mistake.

He singled his Flip, fumbling the landing, and then doubled his Salchow.

The program was already highly inferior technically to what Orser and Boitano were doing at the time (and not that interesting artistically).

Color me unimpressed.

Orser should have won that Olympics. He was stronger in the SP and far stronger in the LP. Hamilton deserved to be marked 4th in the LP but the judges held him up.

When someone skates the best SP and best LP (Orser) at a competition and doesn't win, something is very wrong. It's not like Orser couldn't hold an edge and fell every 5 seconds during his school figures.

Orser unfortunately fell or he might have won.
Your problem is a problem that happened over and over at the Olympics and WC's too.

If all skating events had fair and honest judging you would have a great point. But they are not all fair and honest and your point gets washed away because it is the norm you are complaining about and not the exception.

It goes on exactly the same way in the CoP era and reputation still gets you enough points to win just about any close competition.

Why all the fuss about 1984?

 

[Tonichelle]

so blame the judges it's not like Scott did it himself.

people need to remember to not take bad judging out on skaters that may have benefitted from it. It's not like Scott parades himself around as someone who beat the system. he freely admitted in his book that he knew he'd lost teh gold to Orser that night and it was only because of his three world titles that he was olympic champion...

still it was his moment, and Orser's two silvers ain't nothin to sneer at either.

 

[Blades of Passion]

If all skating events had fair and honest judging you would have a great point. But they are not all fair and honest and your point gets washed away

This makes no sense at all.

Why should we not judge skaters objectively just because the judges decided not to?

Varying opinions would be more valid if the judges had always been fair?

Really not sure what to make of this.

so blame the judges it's not like Scott did it himself

I'm also not sure what you're trying to say. The mistakes Scott made are certainly his fault.

This thread is about who we feel are the 10 best male skaters of all time.

I think Scott does not deserve to be among the 10 because he never gave a performance that was especially amazing. He was a great skater and deserved his 4 World Titles (just not the Olympic title), but he doesn't stand out to me when considering everyone across all time.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Also:

They were very good at beating the other US skaters and the Canadians. Who else did they beat?

ETA: Here is a link to Worlds medalists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Figure_Skating_Championships#Medalists

It is easy to see that Europe was not a factor in the years that followed WW2

Many men's podiums had all three spots taken by Americans or North Americans from Button's era through to the Jenkins bros era ending in 1959.

Looking in the 80's we can see that Scott was competiting against much tougher international competition.

The only competition Scott Hamilton had from outside of North America was Norbert Schramm, who had problems with his jumps and wasn't amazing artistically either.

It's a non-argument in the first place, though. The country that the competition comes from does not matter. If there are (for example) 10 amazing skaters in North America, then it means the competition is stronger than if there were 6 amazing skaters distributed throughout all parts of the World (discounting the limited slots per country for the World Championships).

Jenkins was further advanced for his time than Hamilton was.

 

[Enthusiast]

My list:

01. Alexei Yagudin
02. John Curry
03. Dick Button
04. Kurt Browning
05. Stephane Lambiel
06. Evgeny Plushenko
07. Brian Boitano
08. Hayes Alan Jenkins
09. David Jenkins
10. Brian Orser

Stephane? Really?

 

[Tonichelle]

Stephane? Really?

anyone but Hamilton

 

[seniorita]

To put Evgeny ahead of Alexei is just not right!!!!

Ahhh dont complain Dee that Plush is just one place ahead of Yag, wait until February, then he might place far ahead.
dont take me too seriously these days

 

[janetfan]

It's a non-argument in the first place, though. The country that the competition comes from does not matter. If there are (for example) 10 amazing skaters in North America, then it means the competition is stronger than if there were 6 amazing skaters distributed throughout all parts of the World (discounting the limited slots per country for the World Championships).

Jenkins was further advanced for his time than Hamilton was.

It is much different - and to deny WW2 impacted European skating for the decade that followed is to deny history itself.

It is only your opinion that Jenkins was more "advanced for his era" than Scott.

I enjoy reading your posts but to think Jenkins and Button were beating Europe at full strength may be one of the strangest things I have ever read at GS.

It is the same as giving Euro skaters too much credit in the 60's.
We won no titles until Peggy in 68' because of the '61 air disaster.

So Euro skaters won the most in the 60's just as North Americans won almost everything in the 50's.

WW2 impacted every single aspect of European society and it took years for them to recover. To say it doesn't matter ....:scratch:

 

[Blades of Passion]

I enjoy reading your posts but to think Jenkins and Button were beating Europe at full strength may be one of the strangest things I have ever read at GS.

I never said this? What I said is that the country the competition comes from doesn't matter. If there are 3 amazing Canadian/American skaters to compete against, how is that any different than if there were instead 3 amazing European skaters to compete against?

And, again, Scott Hamilton didn't have strong competition from Europe anyway. Norbert Shramm is the only European who was ever a threat and he wasn't an especially great skater.

Jenkins defeated 2 Frenchman at the 1960 Olympics who became future World Champions, in addition to defeating Canadian Donald Jackson (future World Champion) and all of the American competition.

If Robin Cousins had stuck around after 1980 then Hamilton would have had some real competition. That wasn't the case, though.

I think Jenkins was definitely more advanced for his era because he was performing better (or at least as good as) everyone who came before him. After 1980, the artistry within Men's skating actually degressed a bit. Hamilton was not as great as Robin Cousins. His performances had speed, energy, and sureness, but he didn't interpret music as well with his arms.

Perhaps 80's culture can be blamed as well, but the skating during this time period was more superficial than what we saw in the previous decade from John Curry, Toller Cranston, and Robin Cousins.

This is why Scott Hamilton does not make my all-time list, even though I do think he deserved 4 World Titles - he didn't move the sport forward in any way at all. Other men were doing Triple Axels during his time period, which he never attempted, and his artistry was not so memorable that I find myself wanting to re-watch his performances.

 

[Olympia]

I completely agree about the effect of World War II, Janetfan. One need only look at the 1948 Summer Olympics. Even when Europeans won an event, the speed or distance dipped way below what was recorded for the same event in 1936. And I think the Winter athletes probably had a harder time catching up because practice facilities for things like bobsled and figure skating (even in days when a lot of the competition was in outdoor rinks) were more elaborate and expensive. For track and field, all you need is a track, a discus, a javelin, and so on. Also, a huge proportion of the countries specializing in winter sports were German-speaking countries, and they were just devastated. The Eastern European former specialists, such as Hungary and Czechoslovakia, were behind the Iron Curtain as well as wrecked by the war. (The Soviet Union wasn't really a factor in those days in terms of the Olympics. I think they didn't show up until a few cycles later.)

So Dick Button and the Jenkins brothers may have been splendid, but they weren't really competing against a Europe at full strength. I'd certainly put Button on the list, though, because of his innovations in the jumps and his dominance--and also as a tip of the hat to his lifelong devotion to and influence in skating. For a bit of the same reason, I'd think about keeping Hamilton on. Stars on Ice was the first really influential, long-lasting artistic skating troupe (as opposed to Toller Cranston's and John Curry's limited-time shows). SOI freed professional skaters from having to dress up as lutzing Muppets or learn barrel jumps to continue their careers. They could skate in choregraphed works and even challenging ensemble pieces.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Anything outside of the actual skating should have no influence whatsoever when determining who the best skaters of all time are...

Regardless of World War II, Europe still showed more strength during the Button/Jenkins/Jenkins era than they did in the early 1980's.

Dick Button had to defeat Hans Gerschwiler, the reigning World Champion from Europe.

Scott Hamilton never defeated Robin Cousins or Jan Hoffmann.

 

[janetfan]

Anything outside of the actual skating should have no influence whatsoever when determining who the best skaters of all time are...

Regardless of World War II, Europe still showed more strength during the Button/Jenkins/Jenkins era than they did in the early 1980's.

Dick Button had to defeat Hans Gerschwiler, the reigning World Champion from Europe.

Scott Hamilton never defeated Robin Cousins or Jan Hoffmann.

Your opinions are fine with me. They are primarily opinions though and open for debate. Looking at the medals awarded in the 50's proves beyond any doubt that the Euros were nowhere near full strength. Podium after podium in the Jenkins era has three American men or two American men and a canadian. Only a few Euros and they were typically bronze medals. It is a total break from skating history and an anomaly easily explained by the consequences of the most destructive war in human history.

You are free to believe what makes you happy. I choose to believe historical fact.

 

[janetfan]

History aside guys, if it comes to the skater of the 80s, neither the Brians or Scott get my vote but Alexandr Fadeev :agree:

Unfortunately he wasn't good enough in the early 80s. He could have given Scott some real competition.

ETA: But what about 71-79, only Tickner and Toller on the podium for North America in all those years?

We lost a whole generation in the '61 air tragedy. We were lucky that Fassi and Nicks and other top Euro coaches came to the USA to fill the coaching void.

If not for Peggy, we would have won nothing until Dorothy in '76.

 

[janetfan]

But Wood, 2 Worlds, Allan and Visconti were on the Podium from
65 -70.

We had a "B" team and even a "C" team because our skating federation was so big. But our best young skaters and their coaches were lost.

I need someone to start a "happy topic."

And was wondering, are there any clips of the Jenkin's brothers? I remember their names but not their skating

I was watching Tim Goebels SLC programs earlier today and I believe they would have medaled in Torino and also in 07, 08, and 09 Worlds.

His quads, and particularly his landings look better than most I ever ever seen.

 

[dorispulaski]

David Jenkins in 1957 does a triple axel on outdoor ice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2unFSmlNjI

Reports on David Jenkins' 1960 Olympic FS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esMOC6coY8U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD-iqzaKvxo&feature=related

Hayes Jenkins & David Jenkins (commentator Dick Button)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRUhIHaEXCo

 

[Blades of Passion]

Your opinions are fine with me. They are primarily opinions though and open for debate. Looking at the medals awarded in the 50's proves beyond any doubt that the Euros were nowhere near full strength. Podium after podium in the Jenkins era has three American men or two American men and a canadian. Only a few Euros and they were typically bronze medals. It is a total break from skating history and an anomaly easily explained by the consequences of the most destructive war in human history.

You are free to believe what makes you happy. I choose to believe historical fact.

Historical fact is that the first World Champion after competition resumed following World War II was European. Dick Button lost to him and had to improve in order to win the following year.

I question why you think the Europeans not being as dominant shows some kind of deficiency in the talent of the American champions from this era, though.

Again...if an American skater has to theoretically face 3 amazing competitors from Europe and 0 amazing competitors from North America, how is that any different than them facing 0 amazing competitors from Europe and 3 amazing competitors from North America?

It's still the same amount of competition, just from different countries.

Don't you think it's possible the North American MEN were simply much stronger than usual during the time period?

After World War II, there still weren't any FEMALE American champions until 1953 when Tenley Albright won. Europe was dominant in Pairs and Ice Dancing as well. Clearly, there were still able competitors coming from that part of the Worlds.

ASIA has only recently become very competitive in Men's figure skating. This coming Olympics will be the first time for the Men where it can be said that North America, Europe, and Asia will ALL have a strong "teams".

Does this mean that whoever wins 2010 Olympics should be regarded as the greatest Male figure skater ever? After all, none of the Champions in the past had to face this amount of competition from all different parts of the World.