Top 10 Men in Skating History

[janetfan]

David Jenkins in 1957 does a triple axel on outdoor ice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2unFSmlNjI

Reports on David Jenkins' 1960 Olympic FS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esMOC6coY8U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD-iqzaKvxo&feature=related

Hayes Jenkins & David Jenkins (commentator Dick Button)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRUhIHaEXCo

Thanks Doris - very good clips for that era.

Both Jenkins bros looked very good. But I have a question. If David could do a 3A in 1957 why didn't he ever do them in 57, 58. 59 or 60 competitons?

That seems very odd, to have a jump and not use it for four years??

Or did he try and not land them? I thought Brian O was the first to land 3A's in competition and the first in the Olympics in '84

 

[Olympia]

Vern Taylor, 1978. I just looked it up. I vaguely remembered something about Gordon McKellen, Jr., and when I looked it up, I found that McKellen performed the first triple axel in public, in an exhibition, a few years earlier. Taylor completed the triple axel in competition at the Worlds.

McKellen was the U.S. champion for a year or two in the early seventies. Taylor was never ranked higher than second in Canada, and 12th or so in the world. But he's in the history books! Funny how things work out.

When you see a statistic like that, it makes someone like Browning even more impressive, because it's plain that just one jump can't make a skater into a champ. Browning landed the first quad in competition, but that's almost the least significant thing he's done. He's got extraordinary other skills, including footwork and what I can only call electricity. The same is true with people like Stojko and Hamilton.

 

[janetfan]

ASIA has only recently become very competitive in Men's figure skating. This coming Olympics will be the first time for the Men where it can be said that North America, Europe, and Asia will ALL have a strong "teams".

Does this mean that whoever wins 2010 Olympics should be regarded as the greatest Male figure skater ever? After all, none of the Champions in the past had to face this amount of competition from all different parts of the World.

That is an interesting question........

First we have to wait and see the level of skating - will the men's competition be red hot and full of great performances - or will it be more like Torino where mistakes and sloppy skating was on display.

Here are some thoughts about 2010:

If Plushy wins he will prove he belonged on the list and a case can be made he is the greatest of all time.

If Joubert wins, it would be good for skating as he is very popular with skating fans. But he will not make the list thanks to seniorita

If Evan wins it would be interesting. I think it would make the strong statement that figure skating is a SPORT because Evan can only win by out competing the others. It would show that skating isn't only about who is the most stylish or popular but a sport where hard training and the will to win matter just as much as other sports. But a medal, even Gold will, not earn Evan a spot on the list.

If Patrick wins and continues in the sport until 2014 he would be on his way to earning a spot on the list. His artistry stands out in an era of big jumpers.

If Jeremy or Tomas win....it would be a miracle......because two clean programs will probably be necessary in Vancouver. No spot on the list for either of these two but a win or a medal in Vancouver would feel good.

If Lambiel wins he earns a spot on the list.
And Stephane's artistry and stylish skating deserves to be remembered.

If Johnny wins it would feel like a big upset. I don't think it would earn him a spot on the list as his international record over the years is not impressive and could be considered disappointing. For him to win any medal would be the highlite of his career and a nice way to go out.

If Takahashi wins it would be very memorable. Coming off major reconstructive knee surgery would be inspirational and being the first Asian man to win the OGM would also earn him a spot in skating history. If he stuck around for a few more years and won a few other international medals he could make the list.
He is a case of the skater good enough to win - who under performs when it matters most.

If Oda wins it will be historic and the whole world will be smiling watching his Chaplain program. I think ISU wants happy programs and Oda may be given very good marks for his happy program. But Oda hasn't been successful enough in international events to make the list.


Whoever wins the OGM in Vancouver will be remembered for winning in one of the deepest and most talented fields in Olympic history. It will have more significance because for the first time ever we don't know which geographic region the winner will come from. It will feel different than winning in the 50's because it is different.

Does it prove the winner is one of the best skaters ever? Not really, but it might feel that way - and depending on the outcome it may also be true.

 

[seniorita]

How Joubert will end up with Olympic Gold AND Olympic Silver in Vancouver, I would like to see this
And Plush belongs on this list no matter how he does in Vancouver, he has nothing to prove.
But lists are stupid anyway.

 

[janetfan]

How Joubert will end up with Olympic Gold AND Olympic Silver in Vancouver, I would like to see this
And Plush belongs on this list no matter how he does in Vancouver, he has nothing to prove.
But lists are stupid anyway.

Thanks - I will fix it. It was before my coffee and I confused Lambiel's silver from Torino with Joubert. But thanks to you Joubert is removed from "the list."

 

[dorispulaski]

I imagine the 3A was a relatively risky element for Jenkins--which, he did not need to win as his competitors were not even able to do more than 3T, 3Lp, 3S at most. It might even have been considered 'showing off' of a sort and brought on a reaction like Elaine Zayak landing 6 triples in a program.

Just to put a level set on this:

When the 1964 Olympics was held, the first after the 1961 crash, the only skater there in men's to do any triple jump was Scott Ethan Allen, who finished 3rd.

The first 3Lz was done by Don Jackson in 1962.

Terry Kubicka did the 3F in the 1970's in competition. I don't know who did the first one.

 

[janetfan]

I imagine the 3A was a relatively risky element for Jenkins--which, he did not need to win as his competitors were not even able to do more than 3T, 3Lp, 3S at most. It might even have been considered 'showing off' of a sort and brought on a reaction like Elaine Zayak landing 6 triples in a program.

Just to put a level set on this:

When the 1964 Olympics was held, the first after the 1961 crash, the only skater there in men's to do any triple jump was Scott Ethan Allen, who finished 3rd.

The first 3Lz was done by Don Jackson in 1962.

Terry Kubicka did the 3F in the 1970's in competition. I don't know who did the first one.

Thanks again for sharing some important perspectives Doris.

It is something to consider what a skater can do in practice and what they can do or are wiling to try in competition.

I think of Chan's practice quad, even Sasha's practice quad.
Rumors about Plushy mention he is working on some quad combinations never seen in competition before.

For me, there is an big distinction between what can be done in practice and what can be done in competition. One is valid and counts and the other is interesting to wonder about.

Will Miki show a quad in Vancouver? It would be historic but failure could also cost her a medal.

Will Plushy show these 3A-4T-4S or 4t-3A-4 combinations in Vancouver?
I will believe it when I see it and like Miki, Plushy could win or lose with his jump content.

I believe both will do what they are confident they can land on Olympic ice - and not what they may have pulled off in practice.

 

[seniorita]

Interesting the stuff you mention about who did first which jump, is there a source I can read this, because I love that kind of stuff.

Will Plushy show these 3A-4T-4S or 4t-3A-4 combinations in Vancouver?

Next question: Will Plushy be green and land with a spacecraft?
Oh you give him way too much credit. What combos are these?

I believe it when I see it , it is an expression that has been used many times about Plush. It is nice to dream sometimes too In any case if Plush for example is 10th after the short with respectable gap between 1st and 10th, and no much hope to medal he will probably try his combos if he can by then. If you cant go down to history one way, you can go the other. Or he will do a saltoà la Bonely But thats too much speculation.
For Ando I think she wont if she has even a long shot at podium.

 

[mycelticblessing]

Just one thing to add to postwar deficiency. I can only say that in Germany a deficit in Men skating definitely existed. Jutta Müller, Kati's coach, often told about how she had to compete in Pairs (She was a 1949 GDR Pairs champion with another woman) with another woman because there were virtually no and certainly not enough male skaters arround at that time because of the war.

Two women pair teams were allowed? That's interesting!

 

[janetfan]

Interesting the stuff you mention about who did first which jump, is there a source I can read this, because I love that kind of stuff.

Next question: Will Plushy be green and land with a spacecraft?
Oh you give him way too much credit. What combos are these?

I believe it when I see it , it is an expression that has been used many times about Plush. It is nice to dream sometimes too In any case if Plush for example is 10th after the short with respectable gap between 1st and 10th, and no much hope to medal he will probably try his combos if he can by then. If you cant go down to history one way, you can go the other. Or he will do a saltoà la Bonely But thats too much speculation.
For Ando I think she wont if she has even a long shot at podium.

I tried to list Plushy's new jump content based on reports from the famous Plushy thread. Isn't the info there reliable :scratch:

I did not list Plushy's new 5T-4A-3F because even with Mishin's magic vest this would feel impossible.

Plushy might be able to these jumps if he were to borrow Scott's famous aero-dynamic blue jump suit.

 

[jennylovskt]

Let's see:

Here are some thoughts about 2010:

If Plushy wins he will prove he belonged on the list and a case can be made he is the greatest of all time.

Like Seniorita said. Plushenko has nothing that he needs to prove. Along with his long, long list of medals, he was a child star. He landed a quad in a competition at age 15. At age 20, he had the first ever successful 4/3/3 in competition. How many have succeeded his accomplishment?

If Joubert wins, it would be good for skating as he is very popular with skating fans. But he will not make the list.

True.

If Evan wins it would be interesting. I think it would make the strong statement that figure skating is a SPORT because Evan can only win by out competing the others. It would show that skating isn't only about who is the most stylish or popular but a sport where hard training and the will to win matter just as much as other sports. But a medal, even Gold will, not earn Evan a spot on the list.

If Evan wins a gold (I mean a gold, not a medal), it means that figure skating has had a huge sat back. It means that every skater who has great artistry and/or great athletic abilities has faltered that day. Sorry, but that is true. Evan's skating skills and artistry are improving impressively, but he is not outstanding on anything except the mental toughness.

If Patrick wins and continues in the sport until 2014 he would be on his way to earning a spot on the list. His artistry stands out in an era of big jumpers.

We don't know about that yet.

If Jeremy or Tomas win....it would be a miracle......because two clean programs will probably be necessary in Vancouver. No spot on the list for either of these two but a win or a medal in Vancouver would feel good.

Again Jeremy has to prove that he could have a spot on US Olympics team first. Medal at this Olympics? I don't see they have any chance. There are only three spots on the podium.

If Lambiel wins he earns a spot on the list.
And Stephane's artistry and stylish skating deserves to be remembered.

I don't know about that. But I will be very happy if he wins the gold in Vancouver. His artistry is indisputable. The question is whether he could still jump like he did in 2006 Worlds or not?

If Johnny wins it would feel like a big upset. I don't think it would earn him a spot on the list as his international record over the years is not impressive and could be considered disappointing. For him to win any medal would be the highlite of his career and a nice way to go out.

Sorry, no chance. If he is as sharp as he was in 2005, I would think he has a chance.

If Takahashi wins it would be very memorable. Coming off major reconstructive knee surgery would be inspirational and being the first Asian man to win the OGM would also earn him a spot in skating history. If he stuck around for a few more years and won a few other international medals he could make the list.
He is a case of the skater good enough to win - who under performs when it matters most.

He won't get onto the 10 list but it will be a very nice result if he wins the gold.

If Oda wins it will be historic and the whole world will be smiling watching his Chaplain program. I think ISU wants happy programs and Oda may be given very good marks for his happy program. But Oda hasn't been successful enough in international events to make the list.

Really? Why? Oda's LP is great but it's a little childish. I would laugh at it (I do like it, but don't love it), not smile.

Whoever wins the OGM in Vancouver will be remembered for winning in one of the deepest and most talented fields in Olympic history. It will have more significance because for the first time ever we don't know which geographic region the winner will come from. It will feel different than winning in the 50's because it is different.

Does it prove the winner is one of the best skaters ever? Not really, but it might feel that way - and depending on the outcome it may also be true.

I pray that the result from Vancouver won't turn out to be a dreadful one, such as won by Evan.

Will Plushy show these 3A-4T-4S or 4t-3A-4 combinations in Vancouver?
I will believe it when I see it and like Miki, Plushy could win or lose with his jump content.

I tried to list Plushy's new jump content based on reports from the famous Plushy thread. Isn't the info there reliable :scratch:

Where is that in Plushy thread? You'd better find out and give us a link. Or we will hold you accountable for irresposible speculations.

 

[seniorita]

of course plushthread is reliable but it is more like 3axel-4t we were talking about rather than 3A-4T-4S or 4t-3A-4 that you mentioned
Did you imply Plush will maybe go out of list after Vancouver?Plushy has his weight in gold medals-not his present weight, his chubby weight-and even if medals dont count, new combos, has his name with the first who many times, dominance and longevity,even his mullet is freaking consistent! With Yagudin they painted a whole era, became both household names and made the sport more popular (at least in europe cause this I know)

 

[janetfan]

Did you imply Plush will maybe go out of list after Vancouver?)

Some of my Euro fans are too quick to pre-judge my posts.

To jenny and seniorita I said almost the opposite.

Since there are always doubters about skaters I said if Plushy wins again he proves beyond any doubt he is a top 10 skater.

My second sentence was more important and said if Plushy wins again the discussion will be about if he is the greatest in history.

#1, numero uno. Capice?

I think some people will still say Plushy is not the greatest of all-time if he wins another OGM.

I said he could be the greatest of all time. That is a complimentary opinion.
But now I want to take it back!

 

[jennylovskt]

I said he could be the greatest of all time. That is a complimentary opinion.
But now I want to take it back!

If you don't truly believe it, you don't have to say it. Now what did Plushenko do to make you change your mind?

 

[skatesindreams]

Thanks Doris - very good clips for that era.

Both Jenkins bros looked very good. But I have a question. If David could do a 3A in 1957 why didn't he ever do them in 57, 58. 59 or 60 competitions?

That seems very odd, to have a jump and not use it for four years??

Or did he try and not land them? I thought Brian O was the first to land 3A's in competition and the first in the Olympics in '84

As unbelievable as it might seem now, there was a bias against appearing to be "too atheletic/showy" in programs, during that time!

 

[janetfan]

As unbelievable as it might seem now, there was a bias against appearing to be "too atheletic/showy" in programs, during that time!

Thanks for the explanation.

That might explain the skating we have seen from the Ladies this season

 

[Blades of Passion]

Two women pair teams were allowed? That's interesting!

I never knew this either. Video clips anywhere???

 

[Mathman]

Two women pair teams were allowed? That's interesting!

I never knew this either. Video clips anywhere?

No video clips, but quite true. The first national figure skating championship for the GDR (East Germany) was held in 1949. There was no men's event (because there were no men.) There was also no conventional pairs event, for the same reason. So they invented the sport of two-woman pairs, and Jutta Muller skated with partner Irene Salzmann. I don't think this was an "official championship." It is not listed in the official records of the event.

As far as I know the ISU has never recognized same-sex pairs. In any case, the GDR was not a member of the ISU in those days. Up until 1955 the Bundesrepublik (West Germany) was just listed as "GER" in ISU championship records. The first year that East Germany sent a pairs team to worlds was 1962.

By the way, that team (they finished 9th) was Irene Muller and Hans-Georg Dallmer.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...005-006,_Irene_Müller,_Hans-Georg_Dellner.jpg

(Irene Muller was the love child of Jutta Muller, named Irene after Hutta's long-time partner Irene Salzmann... JUST KIDDING! As far as I know Irene Muller is not related to Jutta Muller. Jutta Muller's actual daughter was Gabriele Seyfert, the ladies' world champion in 1969 and 1970.) :yes:

 

[Nadine]

Haven't read the entire thread, too long, will do so later, but just wanted to say that when Evgeni wins the Olympic Gold Medal he will join a select elite group of gentlemen, as follows:

Gillis Grafstrom (3-time Olympic Gold Medalist from Sweden)
Karl Schafer (2-time Olympic Gold Medalist from Austria)
Richard "Dick" Button (2-time Olympic Gold Medalist from the USA)
Evgeni Plushenko (2-time Olympic Gold Medalist from Russia)

These are my top 4 of all-time, and I will be cheering Evgeni on all the way to the podium, though as I've said from the very beginning he doesn't need it, he truly does skate with the gods.

 

[Germanice]

I agree with the initial poster, this "list" is a total joke with Stojko in and John Curry out ... :banging: