Top 10 of all time per event post Pyeonchang

[stolbovadivas]

With the Olympics now behind us and people like Hanyu and Savchenko setting historic marks what is now your top 10 of all time in each event. Mine would be.

Pairs:

1. Gordeeva & Grinkov- unquestionably still the pairs GOATs.
2. Irina Rodnina- not a pair, just Rodnina herself.
3. Protoppopovs- Still the inventors of modern day pairs skating and the standard of all for artistry and unision in pairs.
4. Aliona Savchenko- again not a pair, just the women. No disrespect to her partners but her legacy is mainly her own first and foremost.
5. Shen & Zhao- still an iconic team.
6. Volosozhar & Trankov- not a big fan but they totally dominated 2-3 years together at the most difficult technical time of the sport.
7. Artur Dmitriev- read what I said for Rodnina and Savchenko.
8. Underhill & Martini- Due to their pro career mostly.
9. Valova & Vasiliev- Underrated and outstanding pair.
10. Totmianina & Marinin, Pang & Tong, Duhamel & Radford- three way tie. Think they all deserve it so I am cheating a bit here to include each.

Men:

1. Hanyu- his back to back Oly wins at a time of unprecedented depth make him mens GOAT
2. Button
3. Yagudin- a far more complete and dominant skater than his arch rival Plushenko
4. Chan- credentials dont really put him there but has best skating skills of all time.
5. Browning- nobody matches the sheer genuis and personality of his skating, and combined with very high technical level.
6. Boitano- not just due to amateur but also pro career.
7. Grafstrom- only man with 3 Olympic Golds still.
8. Stojko- trailblazer for mens quad skating into the new millenium.
9. Plushenko- behind Stojko for being less of a trailblazer.
10. Lambiel, Curry, and Fernandez tied- two for artistic impact on sport, the other for being an amazing trailblazer for country.

Dance:

1. Virtue & Moir- IMO now bar none #1 with nobody close. I wouldnt have had them #1 before the Games but now almost undeniable.
2. Torvill & Dean
3. Klimova & Ponomarenko
4. Gritschuk & Platov
5. Papadakis & Cizeron- could be #1 by end of career.
6. Davis & White- since anyone who could beat the GOATs V&M in their absolute prime that often must be pretty great themselves.
7. Ludmila Pakhomova- like several pairs individuals more about her greatness than a pair.
8. Anissina & Peizerat- most innovative team ever perhaps
9. Duchensays- Due to how revolutionary they were for the sport, love them or hate them.
10. Bestiamanova & Bukin- purely on their medals.


Ladies:

1. Kim- Still the GOAT with Medvedeva's failure to win Olympic Gold.
2. Witt- Best competitive record ever.
3. Henie- Still only women with 3 Olympic Golds.
4. Lynn- Best artistic skater ever.
5. Ito- Best jumper ever.
6. Asada
7. Yamaguchi- Best pro career ever, along with amazing amateur career, ultimate professional.
8. Medvedeva- Failure to win Olympic Gold drops her from 1st to 7th.
9. Zagitova- Already the strongest overall technical skater ever.
10. Kostner, Slutskaya, Kwan- 3 way tie for last spot

 

[Anyasnake]

Your list is odd and suggests that the more medals or the more Olympic Gold, the higher the rankings on the GOAT lists

I agree with Hanyu but this has NOTHING to do with OGM. He could have been 10th at these Olympics and I would still think he is GOAT.

Kim isn't the best because Medvedeva didn't win OGM, she's the best because of her skating. And I put Mao right up there with her, her skating was out of this world. And certainly not always rewarded.

Virtue/Moir have the most medals, but how Torvill/Dean pushed Ice Dance as a discipline and the artistic side, it's litterally the Pacific Ocean between them.
Saying Davis/White are great because they beat your GOATs is even weirder. Like I said, gold medals don't do everything. But in Ice Dance, it's longevity : Torvill/Dean are still the best because of what they did AFTER their competitive career too. What's unfair today is that we don't have pro circuit anymore. IJS doesn't always do justice to Dance.

EDIT : A ranking of programs would be much more fun though. Nobody would agree but still !

EDIT 2 : Is Alina the strongest Tech skater ever ? I remember Mao when young, her tech arsenal was bonkers too. But it's just a question of time before 3A and Quads with Ladies.

 

[stolbovadivas]

Well those are my personal lists, feel free to make your own. That is what I want everyone to do.

IMO greatness isnt entirely on medals. Notice I put Chan as 3rd or 4th best all time, and Lynn and Ito in or around the top 5 when their achievements wouldnt put them anywhere near that. However medals and titles are and still always will be a big part of greatness, especialy records like 2 Olympic Golds. And in Kim's case since literally everyone regards her the rightful winner of the 2014 Olympics I basically consider it as if she won the historic 2nd gold anyway (this isnt just your run of the mill controversy you have to admit, but something at a whole other level altogether). So if you are saying medals or title counts should be completely dismissed from all time rankings I completely disagree. If you are saying they shouldnt be the only factor, I agree to some extent.

 

[stolbovadivas]

EDIT 2 : Is Alina the strongest Tech skater ever ? I remember Mao when young, her tech arsenal was bonkers too. But it's just a question of time before 3A and Quads with Ladies.

It is subjective of course but I doubt anyone could beat her TES under IJS. Ito at her peak would have the best shot but while her jumps could do it, I doubt she could do the high spin and footwork (and most of all spiral as her spirals sucked) under IJS to get the needed points to do it.

 

[Ballade88]

How can one even compare across eras considering how many rule changes figure skating has undergone since the beginning? I am also confused with the inclusion of Alina and Med, and how Med's failure to win OGM disqualifies from her being first. I wouldn't consider them to be on a list of all time greats especially Alina, since her career just started. If she is included, then I don't see why Tara isn't for accomplishing something similar.

Because figure skating is so subjective, it's pretty challenging to come up with a standard list. It's not like track & field, where you get a record of who's the fastest. I also think that there should be a waiting period before adding any recently retired skaters to an all-time list. For many of the legends, we remember them due to the influence they left on the sport, which is only truly felt a decade or so after they retire. Janet Lynn is one prime example. Trixi Schuba was the dominant skater in that era because she was amazing at figures, but Lynn is the skater that people remember to this day. In this case, I believe skaters like Michelle Kwan and Peggy Flemming should be among the top of the list for how much their styles have influenced ladies skating.

 

[stolbovadivas]

How can one even compare across eras considering how many rule changes figure skating has undergone since the beginning? I am also confused with the inclusion of Alina and Med, and how Med's failure to win OGM disqualifies from her being first. I wouldn't consider them to be on a list of all time greats especially Alina, since her career just started. If she is included, then I don't see why Tara isn't for accomplishing something similar.

Because figure skating is so subjective, it's pretty challenging to come up with a standard list. It's not like track & field, where you get a record of who's the fastest. I also think that there should be a waiting period before adding any recently retired skaters to an all-time list. For many of the legends, we remember them due to the influence they left on the sport, which is only truly felt a decade or so after they retire. Janet Lynn is one prime example. Trixi Schuba was the dominant skater in that era because she was amazing at figures, but Lynn is the skater that people remember to this day. In this case, I believe skaters like Michelle Kwan and Peggy Flemming should be among the top of the list for how much their styles have influenced ladies skating.

Tara could be included too of course but prime to prime Alina would destroy Tara in a head to head battle under either system. Equally consistent, harder jumps (even considering the era), technically much cleaner jumps (than Tara who had a huge flutz and underrotated some jumps), much stronger spins, and while both had some artistic weakness, Alina has far better and more complex choreographed programs, even if some of that is the new scoring system which demands more transitions. So Alina makes far more sense.

Also Tara wasnt ever dominant. She didnt even win a regular grand prix event in her 2 Championship seasons, going 0-5, she couldnt even beat a subpar Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, or Hubert to win one. She did a good job rising for the big events except 98 Nationals, and outside of the 98 Olympics benefitted from Kwan, Slutskaya, and others making a lot of mistakes for her gpf-National-world wins, but she wasnt dominant. Contrast that to Alina who has atleast 1 totally dominant season like Tara never had, and dominated everyone but Medvedeva last year when she was age ineligible for a lot of senior events.

I see your point on Fleming, but I dont think Michelle influenced anyone outside the U.S, and even the U.S only to a moderate extent. She was a strong champion of course, but you dont see any American or Asian skaters emulating Kwans style or moves or naming her as their inspiration. Asians all name Ito and younger ones Asada or Kim, and Europeans mostly name Witt, Slutskaya, or Kostner. Even in America many more emulate Cohens signature moves than anything of Kwan, and Cohen didnt even win a major title. If anything the ISU coming up with an all but anti Kwan IJS skill set of rules for the ladies which all but retired Kwan, shows her relative lack of influence or impact beyond some memorable performances and an impressive career.

 

[Ballade88]

Many of the top skaters of the recently retired generation have listed Kwan as an inspiration, including Kim, Jeffrey Buttle, and Akiko Suzuki. Carolina Kostner has also named her as a big inspiration. I agree the IJS has unfortunately moved further and further away from Kwan's style in recent years but she is still considered by many to be one of the standard bearers for artistic skating. Just because current skaters don't name Lynn or Witt as an idol anymore doesn't mean they no longer have influence.

 

[stolbovadivas]

Many of the top skaters of the recently retired generation have listed Kwan as an inspiration, including Kim, Jeffrey Buttle, and Akiko Suzuki. Carolina Kostner has also named her as a big inspiration. I agree the IJS has unfortunately moved further and further away from Kwan's style in recent years but she is still considered by many to be one of the standard bearers for artistic skating. Just because current skaters don't name Lynn or Witt as an idol anymore doesn't mean they no longer have influence.

Many skaters do still name Lynn and Witt (who are much older and further in the past than Kwan), and more than do Kwan. I think you greatly overestimate Kwan's influence, especialy outside the U.S, but you are entitled your opinion, and me mine. And if Kwan was that influential the ISU would not design the ladies singles discipline new scoring system protocal so far away from a Kwan esque type skater. Sorry. Like I said more young Americans copy Cohen's signature moves than any of Kwan's (well actually there wasnt even any really come to think, the Kwan smiral, that is about it), and Cohen didnt even win a major title of any kind.

 

[lappo]

Tara could be included too of course but prime to prime Alina would destroy Tara in a head to head battle under either system. Equally consistent, harder jumps (even considering the era), technically much cleaner jumps (than Tara who had a huge flutz and underrotated some jumps), much stronger spins, and while both had some artistic weakness, Alina has far better and more complex choreographed programs, even if some of that is the new scoring system which demands more transitions. So Alina makes far more sense.

Also Tara wasnt ever dominant. She didnt even win a regular grand prix event in her 2 Championship seasons, going 0-5, she couldnt even beat a subpar Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, or Hubert to win one. She did a good job rising for the big events except 98 Nationals, and outside of the 98 Olympics benefitted from Kwan, Slutskaya, and others making a lot of mistakes for her gpf-National-world wins, but she wasnt dominant. Contrast that to Alina who has atleast 1 totally dominant season like Tara never had, and dominated everyone but Medvedeva last year when she was age ineligible for a lot of senior events.

I see your point on Fleming, but I dont think Michelle influenced anyone outside the U.S, and even the U.S only to a moderate extent. She was a strong champion of course, but you dont see any American or Asian skaters emulating Kwans style or moves or naming her as their inspiration. Asians all name Ito and younger ones Asada or Kim, and Europeans mostly name Witt, Slutskaya, or Kostner. Even in America many more emulate Cohens signature moves than anything of Kwan, and Cohen didnt even win a major title. If anything the ISU coming up with an all but anti Kwan IJS skill set of rules for the ladies which all but retired Kwan, shows her relative lack of influence or impact beyond some memorable performances and an impressive career.

https://www.olympic.org/news/yuna-kim-who-is-your-hero
She also skated this performance with Kwan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7POGxxrSEA

 

[Barb]

It is so weird that you speak so high about Yuna, but you dont know that Michelle was her biggest inspiration. She copied/imited her choreo and movements when she was a kid. And being senior, her Sherezade was a homage to Michelle's program. Michelle inspired to Maia Shibutani too.

 

[skateluvr]

can be done because of a hundred years of skating.

Also 6.0 and IJS cannot be compared as the sport is all about the technical now and artistry isn’t really very impt even in ladies. Only in ice dance do we see what skating is and was even tho there are so many lifts etc now.

So what era?

Artistry or Technician?

Hardware or who you liked the most which usually takes in your national Bias?

Maybe break it down to one discipline and use the above as guideposts in selection perhaps?

I’ll do ladies.

The olden days Sonja Henie because she was incredible and her spins would be level 10 if they went beyond level 4. She brought skating to Hollywood and the masses. No one could touch her and she has the medals as well. Unique and ahead of her time.

Tenley Albright, Carol Heiss Jenkins and the skaters we didn’t get to see mature like Laurent Owens. Of tehnfidties early sixties thatnwent crashing down.

Maribel Vincent Owens of ancient times was amazing. But the sport was in its infancy really.

I think the modern 6.0 era began with Fleming who was athletic and very balletic. Lush skating skills and all the hardware. I think she was rivaled by Janet Lynn. Dorothy was an athlete and eventually developed a more artistic side in the pro years. Witt has two Oly golds and dominated those 4 years. One of the best competitors and so consistent. But I way preferred little Liz Manley skate in 88. Awesome program and a spitfire. Also Roz became a lush skater as a pro and was really the equal of Witt but Witt was the best competitor. She had confidence and they played her beauty to the hilt. I preferred in every way Debi Thomas who clearly was trying to do too much at once.

Then came the pack that included Kristi. Kerrigan and Harding. I liked Nancy as she seemed a woman out there and Kristi was very girlish until she hit her pro with SOI. Harding was a shameful waste.

How would one rank these skaters by every twenty years or every decade? Every generation didmore basically technically anyway.

Next come Kwan Lipinski then fast Hughes and Sasha on their tail. I loved Bokek who for me was the most artistic skater of them all. And I’m not even putting in Irina the only worthy one to challenge the American dominance in the 90s and early two thousands. We had blips of great skaters with Ito who was an athlete not graceful. It took til 2006 for Japanese ladies like Arakawa and Asada to break through. And eventually Carolina always incredible finally learned to compete. No European comes close.

Then we have the cop point counters under Eteri and it is incredible tho not always lovely to see the Russian girls dominate the last several years and two Olympics.

We had Yuna and Joanie one of my faves. thismsport is crazy technical and jumps jumps jumps in the second half likely the next next quad with Russians likely dominating. The Japanese are far more lovely. They try for balance. But they don’t win unless they start backloading all jumps and I don’t think they will sacrifice balance which is so Japanese and beautiful.

So top ten ladies of all time?

Henie
Fleming
Kwan
Yamaguchi as pro
Lipinski the youngest ever with thenhardware then and very good presentation for a little girl
Sarah Hughes could have stayed in and won but she got sidetracked. We will never know.

IJS era
Yuna Kim
Mao Asada
Caro K for her ability to combine all at times
sotnikova
Medvedeva
Zagitova for pure athleticism
Satoko Miyahara she defines artistry with consistently high technical content
Wakaba Higuchi under rated but future Japanese star I hope -my fave for athleticism and choreography.

There are many more but 10 or maybe 11 of all time is the goal but there are really 3 distinct eras to be judged since skatingas a world sport began.

 

[Ballade88]

It is so weird that you speak so high about Yuna, but you dont know that Michelle was her biggest inspiration. She copied her choreo and movements when she was a kid and being senior, her Sherezade was a homage to Michelle's program. Michelle inspired to Maia Shibutani too.

ITA. I listed four skaters of different nationalities who listed her as an inspiration but that was ignored with a vague statement of American bias and many more current skaters listing Lynn or Witt than Kwan although no names were provided. :sarcasm:

 

[EyesOfLove]

It is so weird that you speak so high about Yuna, but you dont know that Michelle was her biggest inspiration. She copied her choreo and movements when she was a kid and being senior, her Sherezade was a homage to Michelle's program. Michelle inspired to Maia Shibutani too.

Interesting. Could you perhaps flag up a specific instance? Having watched the programs of both skaters multiple times, the only case I can think of in which Kim could be perceived to have "copied" Kwan's signature moves/choreo was in Scheherazade, when she did an arabesque spiral with the highlight of the music, which, IIRC, had already been rehashed by others who skated to the same warhorse piece (e.g. Ando's 06-07 SP).

 

[plushyfan]

With the Olympics now behind us and people like Hanyu and Savchenko setting historic marks what is now your top 10 of all time in each event. Mine would be.

First of all I'm Plushenko fan and I don't understand why he is only on 9th place..

Your list:
Men:

1. Hanyu- his back to back Oly wins at a time of unprecedented depth make him mens GOAT -maybe he is, maybe he will be the GOAT.

2. Button -mybe, he skated in very different era..

3. Yagudin- a far more complete and dominant skater than his arch rival Plushenko - Why is he on this good place? Because you think he was better than Plushenko? Well, when they had that great rivalry Yagudin was 18-22 y.o. Plushenko was 15-19.y.o. When Yagudin retired Plushenko was only 19.! Do you think Plushenko didn't improve after his 19?? And Yagudin wasn't better in anything and he wasn't clearly dominant skater because he lost to kid Plushenko many times. Plus Plushenko has much more medals than him.

4. Chan- credentials dont really put him there but has best skating skills of all time.- that is just one viewpont.

5. Browning- nobody matches the sheer genuis and personality of his skating, and combined with very high technical level.- true, he was very good but he has no Oly medals, he hasn't too many medals, he wasn't a real dominant skater

6. Boitano- not just due to amateur but also pro career.- and these are your reasons and the one Oly gold??? He had very short career with less medals

7. Grafstrom- only man with 3 Olympic Golds still.-very different era

8. Stojko- trailblazer for mens quad skating into the new millenium.- great champion but after Yagudin and Plushenko's appearance he couldn't win

9. Plushenko- behind Stojko for being less of a trailblazer.- LOL! check his wikipage! He was the first who landed in 4-3-2, in 4-3-3, 3A-1/2 lo-3F, Bielmann spin, donut spin. Plushenko beat Stojko from his 15 years of age. Stojko lost to him all the time!!!

10. Lambiel, Curry, and Fernandez tied- two for artistic impact on sport, the other for being an amazing trailblazer for country. - Curry is only on 10th place???

I agree with @Blallade 88 "Because figure skating is so subjective, it's pretty challenging to come up with a standard list. It's not like track & field, where you get a record of who's the fastest" Plus everybody is biased. Me too. Thus there is never a perfect list of all aspects, perfect list for everybody.
I tried to cellect many viewpoints and maybe we can go closer to the good list. But I know that will be wrong for many posters.

-who has more medals, titles ( on different competitions, not only Oly title, medals)
-who had impact on FS
-who had innovations
-who is the most original, real personality, charisma
-who has own style
-who had versatile performances, who can skate different programs
-who inspires the other skaters
-who could be on the top of the sport for years,not just a comet but a standing star- longevity
-who is great in both side of skating

After this I would say : I don't know he is the GOAT or not but Evgeni Plushenko is on the 1-3 places . Undoubtedly.

If anybody disagree with me I can defend my opinion with facts. Lets go!

 

[stolbovadivas]

I knew my Plushenko ranking would get the most criticism of any of my rankings in any discipline but I rated him down there since:

1. IMO he does not epitomize the complete skater the way Hanyu, Browning, Chan, Takahashi, Yagudin, Fernandez, and many others do. Too jump oriented.

2. He was pretty much dominated in his rivalry with Yagudin until Yagudin got hurt. Worth noting Yagudin with less than half as long a career with a career ending hip injury at 21, still won more combined world and individual Olympic golds than Plushenko (5 to 4). This is telling to say the least.

3. Lets face it, not his fault, but the competition he won his major titles from 2003-2006 was pretty much a joke.

4. I cant think of any memorable contribution he made to the sport. Even technically he didnt bring anything new or elevate things to a new level beyond his consistency. Goebel was the one who did 3 quads, others were the ones to bring a quad lutz and other quads.

5. As much as he achieved, his achievements dont stand out in a record way in a historic sense either. He didnt win a 2nd OGM as Hanyu did, doesnt have a record number of world or even European titles, etc...

 

[plushyfan]

I knew my Plushenko ranking would get the most criticism of any of my rankings in any discipline but I rated him down there since:

1. IMO he does not epitomize the complete skater the way Hanyu, Browning, Chan, Takahashi, Yagudin, Fernandez, and many others do. Too jump oriented.

2. He was pretty much dominated in his rivalry with Yagudin until Yagudin got hurt. Worth noting Yagudin with less than half as long a career with a career ending hip injury at 21, still won more combined world and individual Olympic golds than Plushenko (5 to 4). This is telling to say the least.

3. Lets face it, not his fault, but the competition he won his major titles from 2003-2006 was pretty much a joke.

4. I cant think of any memorable contribution he made to the sport. Even technically he didnt bring anything new or elevate things to a new level beyond his consistency. Goebel was the one who did 3 quads, others were the ones to bring a quad lutz and other quads.

5. As much as he achieved, his achievements dont stand out in a record way in a historic sense either. He didnt win a 2nd OGM as Hanyu did, doesnt have a record number of world or even European titles, etc...

I will answer you later I have no time now But he is 7 times European champion and 3 times world champion, 10 time Russian champion and he won his second Oly gold in team 2014, plus he has two Oly silver medals... LOL!! Didn't you know??:eeking:

 

[stolbovadivas]

I will answer you later I have no time now But he is 7 times European champion and 3 times world champion, 10 time Russian champion and he won his second Oly gold in team 2014, plus he has two Oly silver medals... LOL!! Didn't you know??:eeking:

I didnt say his achievements were not great. They are just not historic the way Hanyu and his 2nd OGM (which Plushenko couldnt manage, even in the splatfest Vancouver event which produced probably the weakest Oly mens Champion in history), Yagudin having more world titles in a much shorter time and being the first in many years to hold the Olympic, European, World crowns (and first to hold all those plus the GPF) all at once, or even Browning and his 4 worlds in 5 years. That is just of the recent ones. And since his skating is not trailblazing or leaving an intangible mark in either the technical or certainly artistic categories, his competitive record would have to be really historic or record filled to merit a top 3 rank all time IMO.

 

[Barb]

Interesting. Could you perhaps flag up a specific instance? Having watched the programs of both skaters multiple times, the only case I can think of in which Kim could be perceived to have "copied" Kwan's signature moves/choreo was in Scheherazade, when she did an arabesque spiral with the highlight of the music, which, IIRC, had already been rehashed by others who skated to the same warhorse piece (e.g. Ando's 06-07 SP).

My english is not good, I should to say Imite not copy, and I should put a ( . )after ¨ when she was a kid ¨ . I meant, she said that when she was a kid she memorized Michelle´s programs and she liked imite her on the ice, not for competition, just for fun, I think . And well, everyone knows that Sherezade was homage to Michelle´s Sherezade.

 

[yexiu]

I knew my Plushenko ranking would get the most criticism of any of my rankings in any discipline but I rated him down there since:

1. IMO he does not epitomize the complete skater the way Hanyu, Browning, Chan, Takahashi, Yagudin, Fernandez, and many others do. Too jump oriented.

2. He was pretty much dominated in his rivalry with Yagudin until Yagudin got hurt. Worth noting Yagudin with less than half as long a career with a career ending hip injury at 21, still won more combined world and individual Olympic golds than Plushenko (5 to 4). This is telling to say the least.

3. Lets face it, not his fault, but the competition he won his major titles from 2003-2006 was pretty much a joke.

4. I cant think of any memorable contribution he made to the sport. Even technically he didnt bring anything new or elevate things to a new level beyond his consistency. Goebel was the one who did 3 quads, others were the ones to bring a quad lutz and other quads.

5. As much as he achieved, his achievements dont stand out in a record way in a historic sense either. He didnt win a 2nd OGM as Hanyu did, doesnt have a record number of world or even European titles, etc...

I actually agree...

 

[yexiu]

I will answer you later I have no time now But he is 7 times European champion and 3 times world champion, 10 time Russian champion and he won his second Oly gold in team 2014, plus he has two Oly silver medals... LOL!! Didn't you know??:eeking:

I think he meant individual OGM...I wouldn't put team gold in the same caliber as individual gold.