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- Apr 24, 2017
That's insane... Uliana knows not only how to fly on the ice, but also how to fly in the air...
Top Prospects of Russian ladies
- Thread starter puremagic
- Start date
I guess the team is focused exactly on her jumps, and that's why they give her weak PC's content, to be more involved in the jumps. She has nice potential, I'm sure if they will directly work on her PC during one season - she will show many improvements. As for the quads, for now, it seems like she will have pretty stable quads, maybe not lower than 80% of successful attempts.
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- Nov 2, 2013
Haha, I found myself pausing exactly there, too. She jumps so high with that split!
Aand a bit early to announce Akatieva quad success rates, isn't it~ Though yes, if all goes well I do expect her to become the best jumper amongst ladies.
Yeah, let's hope they do work on these things. And give her some better programs. But even so, you either have it or you don't to some extent - I doubt she'll ever be a master of artistry.
Aand a bit early to announce Akatieva quad success rates, isn't it~ Though yes, if all goes well I do expect her to become the best jumper amongst ladies.
It's quite rare, very rare, to find a girl who has everything. But statistics shows that better to have good jumps and not great artistry, than on the contrary.
That will be our secret!
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- Apr 24, 2017
I like Berestovskaya, but she's not even close to Akatieva, regarding future potential.
She reminds me Mukhortova with her amazing presence, lovely smile, overall adorableness and micro jumps.
Short legs with no real spring in them, few Russian Cup medals at KMC level and see you my dear. Hopefully we're gonna see lovely Nastya in pairs. :thumbsup:
You gotta look at their silhouettes: shape of legs, torso, width of hips. Every coach does, it's also well-known inside fact they check out moms' figures sooner rather than later to see the future.
PS. Of course, as I've mentioned before, any of these 10-11yos may develop some inner Midori Ito in them, but it's unpredictable at this point in time and rare.
She reminds me Mukhortova with her amazing presence, lovely smile, overall adorableness and micro jumps.
Short legs with no real spring in them, few Russian Cup medals at KMC level and see you my dear. Hopefully we're gonna see lovely Nastya in pairs. :thumbsup:
You gotta look at their silhouettes: shape of legs, torso, width of hips. Every coach does, it's also well-known inside fact they check out moms' figures sooner rather than later to see the future.
PS. Of course, as I've mentioned before, any of these 10-11yos may develop some inner Midori Ito in them, but it's unpredictable at this point in time and rare.
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- Nov 2, 2013
Hrm, my family makes this quite the waste of time in my eyes... I look at my sister who even as an adult is very petite and chronically underweight and just cannot gain weight no matter what and my mom who's... Well, almost the opposite. Torso : leg proportions can also change quite a bit until / during puberty. I guess you can consider this but I'm not going to put a whole lot of weight on it. Saying this as someone who grew up with 5 sisters.You gotta look at their silhouettes: shape of legs, torso, width of hips. Every coach does, it's also well-known inside fact they check out moms' figures sooner rather than later to see the future.
This, though... What are you even saying? Mukhortova? Come on... Berestovskaya got a higher score than Gubanova at the Russian championships of the same level at the same age. Akatieva did as well, of course(though 3 points lower). Mukhortova was... where? While one and a half years older than Berestovskaya, she still got 10 points less. Some sense of perspective...
Anya at 10 and half years of age had Lutz air time of ~9/24 frames, or ~0.375 seconds - It also was a double. Berestovskaya at 10 years of age has Lutz air time of ~14/30 frames, or ~ 0.4666... seconds. Akatieva for instance has ~15/30 frames of air time, or 0.5 seconds. Anya's Lutz right now has air time of ~16/30 frames, or ~0.5333... seconds. You really think this is a disastrous amount of air time for her age? I think that that's pretty ridiculous. Something to consider is that Beresotvskaya is actually learning the proper Lutz technique! How rare is that these days? A proper Lutz tends to get quite a bit more more height, distance and air time than the ones done with worse technique. I actually went and checked, just for you. Mukhortova while almost 12 years old(1 and 9 months older than Berestovskaya) had ~10/30 frames of air time on her UR 3Flip or ~0.333... seconds. Sorry but this comparison was dead from the start. Not only does she get much lower air time than Berestovskaya, she rotates far slower, too. Berestovskaya's peak rotation has been shown to be faster than Trusova's, who has 2 quads. It also is closer to Shcherbakova's than Trusova's.
I really don't get your analysis regarding jumps and jump potential sometimes. As we can see, skaters able to skate 7 triple programs are dime a dozen. In fact, over a dozen skaters could probably do that in the Nationals this season. That's not what I believe makes a skater a real talent. And especially when you try to see into the future regarding puberty when it's about 10-year-old girls - Did you see Radionova at 10 and see her now?
The only thing that really matters to me regarding jumps is whether they've got quad/3A potential. For talented skaters below the age of 11, you just have to assume that they're going to be able to perform 7 triple free skates unless their jumps are a complete train wreck. That's not the case for someone like Berestovskaya who actually has some of the best jump technique.
If you seriously think she's a Mukhortova level talent and she's "just going to have a few KMC russia cup appearances" I can only shake my head.
Thanks for your post, Shayuki! 
But about the legs, not so while ago I posted a riddle. Maybe tars already saw it, but I guess you didn't. Who do you think she is?
In Berestovskaya's case, I guess she'll be fine. But exactly the proper technique of the lutz is bother me. How many skaters do we know with good lutz technique? Tuktamysheva, Chen and Chistyakova? And how successful they are on it? They're victims of their technique. So many failed attempts with falls and pops. No one of these girls has a stable lutz jump. Except Tuktamysheva's 2014-2015 season. And even then, she didn't have a 3-3 combo with lutz. Only 3-2-2.
But about the legs, not so while ago I posted a riddle. Maybe tars already saw it, but I guess you didn't. Who do you think she is?
In Berestovskaya's case, I guess she'll be fine. But exactly the proper technique of the lutz is bother me. How many skaters do we know with good lutz technique? Tuktamysheva, Chen and Chistyakova? And how successful they are on it? They're victims of their technique. So many failed attempts with falls and pops. No one of these girls has a stable lutz jump. Except Tuktamysheva's 2014-2015 season. And even then, she didn't have a 3-3 combo with lutz. Only 3-2-2.
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2017
Well, Mukhortova was actually quite petite at 13-14, there is no guarantee that Berestovskaya will be that lucky.
Listen, Gubanova was the best novice skater of all times - I think we agree on this.
At 10-11, she had all the air time you can measure, high vertical, was nice, artistic jumper and lovely, proportionally built girl and you see how puberty hit her and destroyed her jumps.
Since then, when I see proportionally built 10-11yo without extra high jumps, I go into
mode. I agree techinique is important and the better it is, the bigger chances of post-puberty adjustment, but it's secondary question to physical features in ladies division imo. Sorry, but this is a sport for physical freaks like Yuna Kim, Mao Asada and Medvedeva on one side (body shape) or Midori Ito, Higuchi and Osmond on the other (vertical jump). Since you can't quite assess the latter on pre-puberty girl, you gotta take the earlier under the consideration, when grading a talent. Slender figure, narrow hips, long but agile legs, quickness, etc..
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- Nov 2, 2013
Wakaba Higuchi has a stable Lutz jump with proper technique and it's absolutely gorgeous. Maria Sotskova has proper Lutz technique and she's one of the most consistent skaters around. She also retained everything post puberty almost without issues, has she not? Think about the general talent level of these girls you listed - I really don't think the technique is the issue. Karen for instance has serious trouble with her jumps in general. Who knows if she could perform any sort of a triple Lutz with weaker technique? Tuktamysheva is even doing 3T-3T - would Lutz technique really be the issue there? That signifies unreliable jumps in general.
Sorry about the riddle but uh, I really cannot guess off just that.
I made this video with Berestovskaya rotation comparison. Of note is that it's just a triple but even so, it's very close to Anya's quad rotation speed. And very clearly faster than Trusova's quad.
Medvedeva's more the exception to the rule in my eyes. Take a look at Sotskova who to me always had limited talent in comparison to Proklova and Medvedeva, Radionova, Lipnitskaya, who have you. She didn't get by puberty almost at all even though her body shape changed a lot. She has proper jump technique. Radionova, Lipnitskaya had such body types as well, by the way. Traditionally, a stick figure body type still isn't optimal for figure skating and even if Medvedeva is successful, that doesn't make me change my opinion. By the way, Berestovskaya did out-score the equivalent-age Gubanova at last season's championships and she does not have Gubanova's massive jump tech issues(I think I've talked about this). I don't see why you'd expect her to end up like Gubanova(Who isn't even in a terrible state) rather than Sotskova(another girl with proper technique whose jumps didn't get hit by puberty at all despite body shape changing a lot).Well, Mukhortova was actually quite petite at 13-14, there is no guarantee that Berestovskaya will be that lucky.
Listen, Gubanova was the best novice skater of all times - I think we agree on this.
At 10-11, she had all the air time you can measure, high vertical, was nice, artistic jumper and lovely, proportionally built girl and you see how puberty hit her and destroyed her jumps.
Since then, when I see proportionally built 10-11yo without extra high jumps, I go into
Sorry, but this is a sport for physical freaks like Yuna Kim, Mao Asada and Medvedeva on one side (body shape) or Midori Ito, Higuchi and Osmond on the other (vertical jump). Since you can't quite assess the latter on pre-puberty girl, you gotta take the earlier under the consideration, when grading a talent. Slender figure, narrow hips, long but agile legs, quickness, etc..
If you think about very talented skaters who got hit hard like Serafima Sakhanovich, even Lipnitskaya - Both had terrible jump technique. Lipnitskaya had your ideal body type, but technique is poor. Sotskova? Good technique - No issues despite her body looking like it does and her being very tall. Radionova - Poor jump technique and no height. She's almost always had trouble with her jumps.
I also don't agree that Medvedeva's body type is optimal for the sport - At least traditionally it isn't so and I don't agree that long legs are exactly an advantage. In my opinion, her strengths lie elsewhere. Sure, if you're going to get through puberty like she did that's great but I would not predict that to happen.
Without getting stuck on that "proportional" thing(I'm not buying that it's a negative), take a look at the other qualities regarding Berestovskaya that I've talked about. I think you're underestimating how many girls will be able to jump 7 triple programs. All sorts of random skaters with limited talent do it already. It really makes no sense to predict a skater to lose all their jumps unless the jump technique is horrible. Maybe they'll lose their quad or triple axel. But apart from that, I'll continue to look for skaters who could become something incredible rather than skaters who are likely to become "7 triple jump skater #14 out of 27".
But just so my main points are clear, Berestovskaya's body type isn't poor, her jump technique is good, her jump height is fine for her age, her rotation speed is incredible and talk of her potentially losing her jumps is completely unfounded.
The answer to the riddle is on the next page - Daria Panenkova. At age of 10 that was already visible that her legs are a bit bigger than other girls'. And I'm glad that no one of 2007' stars has the same legs as she has, they're all thinner. But really interesting how they will grow in 2-3 years. I'd say Akatieva will have the same body as Shcherbakova has, maybe with not so long legs. Samodelkina probably will have the same body as now, but the question is about her growth (I still think she is from Tarakanova's camp, some kind of earlier pre-puberty, but different relatively to Panenkova or Gulyakova), and about Berestovskaya it's hard to say, but anyway I wouldn't expect big changes.
I don't expect any of the girls with very good technique to retain their jumps during and post-puberty unless they control their weight and add a lot of fitness.
I suspect Sostkova, despite her height, managed to keep the jumps because she did these, whereas Gubanova not so much.
I suspect Sostkova, despite her height, managed to keep the jumps because she did these, whereas Gubanova not so much.
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- Nov 2, 2013
Berestovskaya and Anya:
https://i.imgur.com/DcdrZnr.png
Anya's about 7 months older there so things can change until we can have a more accurate comparison. What I tried was to get the skate and head sizes about equal to get a good comparison(Berestovskaya seems to be taller), though I don't think this still is quite perfectly scaled. Still, I think it's good enough. I really don't see what the issue could be if this body type comparison is some reason to doom-and-gloom regarding Berestovskaya. She's thinner if anything, and are her legs even that much thicker? She also has longer legs, I believe.
But really, Medvedeva's body type being used as somehow "optimal" is in my opinion not very accurate. She has fallen in plenty of competitions as well, her major success has mostly been due to separation by artistry(Which is far more difficult to "get later" and with skating skills the most important thing in my opinion[Being able to jump triples is nothing special]).
Wow! They look almost the same! The difference is in the length of the dresses, Anya's dress is just a little shorter.
Okay, I rewatched two Liza's programs: This and this one.
I guess I understand what tars meant, but I think he's missing the main point: Anya was jumping mostly doubles that time, not triples. Liza already is jumping triples. But her triples, in the first program which I mentioned above, looked URed, even if some of them are not, also her height on the jumps seem low. In the second program all triples almost the same, but 3Lo and 3S look more less fine and nice. I mean, let's imagine these programs without triples, if Liza is jumping only doubles.
And of course at Akatieva's background she might seem weak, because Akatieva's jumps just are so nice, and her rotation speed is insane, but if we leave Sofia aside, Liza's jumps are very nice for her age. In 1-2 years she will gain more power and will be even more amazing.
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- Nov 2, 2013
Well that's the thing - Akatieva's the most talented jumper of all time, so of course Berestovskaya's would not look as impressive next to her. But they still aren't bad, in fact they're very good. The Lutz was 14 frames or airtime and the rest are 11-13 from what I've seen.
Few skaters even had her jump arsenal at her age so a very limited amount of comparables exist. If we look at Gubanova's FS while 4 months older than Berestovskaya right now, she in fact did not have a 3-3 combo, something Berestovskaya has(With limited success, admittedly). She did not even have a 3Lutz at all. Gubanova has about 1 frame more air time on most of her jumps(Though the 14f Lutz air time is equivalent to Gubanova's flip), though she did backload much less. So if you ignore what Akatieva's doing, you see Berestovskaya is executing significantly more difficult content than -the best Russian novice skater ever-. See this 2A entry at the very end of her FS. It's an actual difficult entry that you rarely even see at the highest senior level.
Medvedeva for instance was doing 3Lo and 3S in her SP even when she was a year older than Berestovskaya is right now(She at the time had 1-2f better air time but clearly slower rotation speed, although there's not too much material).
I looked back at Berestovskaya from 2017 spring, about 9 months before her most recent skates. See how she's clearly improved - Air time's become better, jumps more difficult and compare the 2A entry I linked above to the stalked entry here. A 10-year-old skater is in no way a finished product.
Only one skater EVER has been ahead of her in jumps at the same age - Akatieva. And while it's easy to forget or ignore, she actually is 4 months younger than Akatieva. See Akatieva 3 months before this December performance of Berestovskaya's here. Only a 3-2 and a fall on the 2A-3T. The 3T was UR. Skaters at such a young age can make several improvements to their program layouts during the course of a single season.
On the topic of that UR 3T combo by Akatieva that she fell on, once again take a look at this 3T after the first Lutz of the recent FS. That air time, off a standstill, no UR. So it'd be good to recognize her rotation speed as well, finally. It's not some massive advantage Akatieva has(Maybe like 5% faster)
Few skaters even had her jump arsenal at her age so a very limited amount of comparables exist. If we look at Gubanova's FS while 4 months older than Berestovskaya right now, she in fact did not have a 3-3 combo, something Berestovskaya has(With limited success, admittedly). She did not even have a 3Lutz at all. Gubanova has about 1 frame more air time on most of her jumps(Though the 14f Lutz air time is equivalent to Gubanova's flip), though she did backload much less. So if you ignore what Akatieva's doing, you see Berestovskaya is executing significantly more difficult content than -the best Russian novice skater ever-. See this 2A entry at the very end of her FS. It's an actual difficult entry that you rarely even see at the highest senior level.
Medvedeva for instance was doing 3Lo and 3S in her SP even when she was a year older than Berestovskaya is right now(She at the time had 1-2f better air time but clearly slower rotation speed, although there's not too much material).
I looked back at Berestovskaya from 2017 spring, about 9 months before her most recent skates. See how she's clearly improved - Air time's become better, jumps more difficult and compare the 2A entry I linked above to the stalked entry here. A 10-year-old skater is in no way a finished product.
Only one skater EVER has been ahead of her in jumps at the same age - Akatieva. And while it's easy to forget or ignore, she actually is 4 months younger than Akatieva. See Akatieva 3 months before this December performance of Berestovskaya's here. Only a 3-2 and a fall on the 2A-3T. The 3T was UR. Skaters at such a young age can make several improvements to their program layouts during the course of a single season.
On the topic of that UR 3T combo by Akatieva that she fell on, once again take a look at this 3T after the first Lutz of the recent FS. That air time, off a standstill, no UR. So it'd be good to recognize her rotation speed as well, finally. It's not some massive advantage Akatieva has(Maybe like 5% faster)
That's my point. And yes, the rotation speed of Akatieva's jumps is not miles ahead of Berestovkaya's, but overall mix of rotation speed + height of the jump + air time + longer legs - give another impression. But if we'll go to the each case - the difference is not so big at all. And serisously, we should take a look at Berestovskaya's skating in sport suit. I think she has quite nice body for the skating, but her dresses may fool us.
I also looking forward to see a progress of this girl. How fast her rotation speed here? It looks very impressive. And also let's not forget Anastasia Zinina. To me she's another Kanysheva or Sinitsyna, but has almost all triples at age of ten as Akatieva/Berestovskaya/Samodelkina, and will be interesting to look at her in 2-3 years too.
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- Nov 2, 2013
Plakhotnaya? Yes, I recalled she also had lvl 3 steps and that seems to be the case as I re-check the protocols. That certainly is a good thing, but the issue is that she's only 2 months older than Berestovskaya and not so much older than Akatieva and the comparison there... Does not land her in the same tier at all overall, truly. But she still is rather interesting. Her height and air time are both excellent. Those would already have her close to the average for seniors. But her rotation speed is very slow, perhaps even slower than Tsurskaya's. She definitely has some promise and it's reasonable to expect her to have very impressive triple jumps in the future, but I just don't think the rotation speed is enough for her to have any serious hopes of 3A / quad. I look at her first 2A which had great air time and height and it's borderline UR(wasn't called but I'd have given it UR).
I guess she might be similar to a Daria Panenkova or so. Probably not a top skater for her age group but still a very competent one. She certainly compares favorably to most 2008s. I wonder how easy it is for skaters to increase their rotation speed significantly? If she got hers up to even the Zagitova, Medvedeva, Miyahara tier she would already be so much stronger.
I guess she might be similar to a Daria Panenkova or so. Probably not a top skater for her age group but still a very competent one. She certainly compares favorably to most 2008s. I wonder how easy it is for skaters to increase their rotation speed significantly? If she got hers up to even the Zagitova, Medvedeva, Miyahara tier she would already be so much stronger.
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- Apr 24, 2017
These are what I call "extra jumps". Whatever happens to this girl in puberty, she will always have those high-flying legs to rely on.
Very impressive and promissing.
Yeah, I again confused air time and height with rotation speed, agree it's not so fast. Interesting comparison to Panenkova regarding body type, but I hope not. I also see the reference in her legs to it, but still you never know. For now I'd say it's 50/50 - or Panenkova's body type, or another (like Samodelkina's or so). About increasing rotation speed, remember you said that at age of 10 you didn't see Anna as a good jumper or something like that? Can we know the difference in rotation speed of her at age of 9-10, 11-12, and 13? Were it progressing? Something has changed. Secret Eteri's trainings, her legs or something else.
That's for sure. She is like a rocket!
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- Nov 2, 2013
Usually the thing with rotation speed is you don't know when the skater is going all out. Do they have no UR issues? Then you just don't know if they could go even faster as they're going to rotate in a way that makes landing the jump comfortable for them. Do they UR or get close to URs frequently? Then you have to assume they're rotating as fast as they can because it would make no sense to UR if you could avoid it by rotating faster. That's what made me wonder about Plokhatnova, because she got called for UR on 3S and also had that 2A for example which one really should have no issues rotating more fully around.
This is Anya's 3Lutz as a 10-year-old and the first sign of a triple jump by her, at least one that I've seen. The rotation already is pretty good, in the Zagitova/Medvedeva/Miyahara tier that I mentioned judging by that video. It's super fully around and the air time is very good. But no, I wouldn't think that this girl is going to be jumping quads 2 and a half years later. But her triple jump rotation speed really hasn't increased all that much from that Lutz(Has a little). She just has another gear in store. It's tough to know when a skater might have that if they never need to show it - But if they do have UR issues despite having comfortable height, then you probably can assume they don't have it.
To be honest, it makes no sense how much she struggled with triples at the time considering she had something like this in store. Why would she have a Lutz like that and struggle massively with rotating Salchows or Toes? Weird...
I guess it's because of different technique or some specifically difficult jumps for skaters. For example Berestovskaya, her 2A, 3Lo and 3S already look fine to me, but still some problems with flip and lutz. And Plakhotnaya - nice lutz, but struggles with other jumps. Different technique, different skaters.
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