Triple-Triple penalty under CoP | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Triple-Triple penalty under CoP

wallylutz

Medalist
The Proposition does not hold

Let's start with practical layouts that are actually realistic and make certain reasonable assumptions such as excluding the use of Triple Axel and ignore the 10% bonus for 2nd half. You posted in the other thread the following layouts and I quote:

Krislite said:
In particular, I have the following examples in mind since it has been claimed to be Yu-na's jump layout at worlds:

3Lz+3T
3F
3S+2T
2A+2T+2L
3Lz
3S
2A
----------
3Lz+2T
3F
2A+3T
3S+2T+2L
3Lz
3S
2A

The two jump layouts above are identical in jump contents, but the second one omits the triple-triple combo. In fact, the second layout is slightly higher in base value once we take the 1/2 mark bonus into account. Add in the maximum GOE potential, and you get a jump layout that has higher base value and higher GOE potential.

We agree to ignore the 1/2 mark bonus so the "higher base value" claim is disregarded for the moment for reasons stated previously. Both jump layouts you provided above come up to a total Base Value of 41. In terms of GOE potential, layout 2 has, all things considered, only merely 0.2 higher GOE potential on paper than layout 1, out of 7 jumping passes. I will talk about why it is not advised to go for layout 2 in lieu of layout 1 if higher GOE potential is truly the goal later, since that discussion is more qualitative than pure math, hence am not surprised Yu-Na Kim would not be doing layout 2 that many of you have hoped.

wallylutz

Medalist
Counter Measure

In your view and I quote:

Krislite said:
The Proof is rather trivial. Substitute a double axel as the first jump in both triple-triple combinations. If the same type of jump is used as the first jump in both triple-triples, then substitute that triple jump into the 3-2-2 combo to comply with the Zayak rule. Now you have a seven-triple layout with no triple-triple combination at all, but exactly the same base value and higher GOE potential since every jumping pass has a triple.

Unfortunately, your methodology will not work with the following CoP-compliant seven-triple jump layout with two triple-triple combinations, one 3-jump combination and two double axels using no Triple Axels or Quads and realistically doable by an elite lady today:

1) 3Lz+3T
2) 3F
3) 2A
4) 3Lz
5) 2A+3Lo+2Lo
6) 3S+3Lo
7) 2Lz

Total Base Value = 46.3

As you will note, the total base value is much higher than the one you provided, 46.3 - 41.0 = 5.3 = base value of an additional Triple Flip

Most importantly, you will not be able to achieve an equal or higher base value layouts using your stated methodology and I quote again:

<<Proposition: For any CoP-compliant seven-triple jump layout with two triple-triple combinations, one 3-jump combination and two double axels, there is another layout consisting of exactly the same jumps but with both triple-triples removed such that:

1. The base value of the jump layout is at least the same.
2. The GOE potential is higher.

(We disregard the 1/2 mark bonus of 10% without loss of generality)>>

wallylutz

Medalist
Rearrangement?

You may be able to rearrange it a little bit but you will always need at least one 3/3 combo on its own or part of a 3 jump combo in order to achieve equal or higher total base value. Let me re-arrange the layouts a little bit with risk minimization as the purpose in mind:

1) 3Lz+2Lo
2) 2A
3) 2Lz+3Lo
4) 3F
5) 3Lz
6) 2A+3T+3Lo
7) 3S

As you can see, you may be able to knock out one of the two 3/3 combos but it doesn't quite reduce the overall risk of the program since the re-arranged combos remain quite tricky and some would say trickier than keeping the 3Lz+3T combo, which is more straightforward. And if you insist on taking out the 3/3 combo, you will end up short of one jumping pass and the cost is 2.1 Base Value + possibly up to 0.9 in GOE for a total of up to 3.0 in value, which again validates my earlier statement that one of the key advantage of 3/3 combo is the freeing up of jumping passes.

wallylutz

Medalist
Theoretical discussion if a lady can do 8 Triples

One can even extend this idea to the ultimate layout for a ladies free skate (with no quad). Consider this 8-triple jump layout with two triple-triples and one triple-triple-double (!).

3A+3L
3A+3L
3Lz+3T+2L
3F
3S
2A
2A

Now rearrange it like this:

2A+3L
2A+3L
3A+3T+2L
3A
3Lz
3F
3S

Exact same jumps, exact same base value, and higher GOE potential. But it's much easier in comparison, since I don't think that we've ever seen a 3A+3L combo even from the men's competition.

Isn't it a travesty that first jump layout is not higher in base value than the second, and can earn less GOE points in total?

In this theoretical example, your layout 1 is illogically difficult. Notwithstanding the fact that no women have attempted or will attempt such layout anytime soon, I also note that your example still includes a 3/3 combo, which defeats the claim partially that Triple-Triple combo can be replaced. In any event, the supposed higher GOE potential is theoretically possible but in practice, repeating 2A+3Lo twice is not a good mental game plan that would be well regarded. Similarly, as I mentioned earlier, doing a 3Lz+2T in lieu of 3Lz+3T, while the former is easier and the spread of Triples across all jumping passes increase theoretical GOE potential by a mere 0.2 but you can see why Yu-Na Kim is reluctant to embark on such venture because doing 3Lz+2T is unlikely going to score higher GOE from judges than 3Lz+3T. Why? 3Lz+3T has become such a trademark for her and very few ladies do it in the senior circle. It sets her apart and make it more likely that judges will award her higher GOE on that element than 3Lz+2T which gazillion number of other women do as well. So it is doubtful whether following your proposition would necessarily lead to higher GOE overall in practice. If I have to an educated guess, I'd say no since the 2A+3T combo, while easier in theory, rarely ever impresses the judges to a point where the performer - whether it's Mirai Nagasu or Miki Ando, gather anything more than +1 with rarely some +2. Kim also gets more speed out of her Triple Lutz than her Double Axel such that it is likely easier for her to put the Triple Toe behind the 3Lz over the 2A. Bottom line, I think it would be unwise for Kim to follow her fans' advice and change the layout of her jumps to exclude the only 3/3 in her FS since the supposed higher GOE potential is only a theoretical possibility, too small and doesn't take into account other important qualitative consideration in the construction of a program.

wallylutz

Medalist
Triple/Triple combo has another advantage besides freeing up jumping passes

Last but not least, I have come up with my own theoretical jump layout using your 7 jumping passes and 2 Triple Axels example, that provide a higher base value to make a final important point that I want to emphasize. Please look at this:

1) 3Lz+3T
2) 3A+3Lo
3) 3F
4) 3A
5) 3Lz
6) 2A+2Lo*+3S
7) 2A

*: Denotes a Double Loop landed on opposite foot, allowing a combination to flow into a Salchow or Flip type of jump

By the way, once can generalize the proposition to the following statement:

For any n-triple jump layout where n=7 or n<7 consisting of one 3-jump combination, two double axels and at least one triple-triple combination, there exists another layout such that:

1. It contains exactly the same jumps (hence identical base value).
2. It contains no triple-triple combination (hence easier).
3. It has greater GOE potential (hence a disincentive to perform the triple-triple).

I'm not going to bother to prove the case where n < 7 since it's even more trivial than the above.

After this discussion, you will need to revise your proposition since it has been shown that it no longer holds. I am impressed by your effort however, I thought what you did is commendable regardless even though your theory is not yet applicable in practice. As someone who is in favor of giving jump combo a 10% bonus as proposed last year, I am hoping that the continuous discussion on this subject will persuade others to agree to such change.

gkelly

Record Breaker
realistically doable by an elite lady today:

<snip>5) 2A+3Lo+2Lo

I'm not sure how doable that is, since I don't recall ever seeing a 2A+3Lo combination in competition. Who am I forgetting? And was it strong enough for the skater realistically to put a double loop afterward?

Even 2A+3T was always rare before the current rules. I'm not sure that it's any easier than 3T+3T, but it's a better allocation of resources for a skater who wants to do 7 triples in 7 jump passes and also to repeat her two hardest triples and meet the "axel-type jump" requirement in today's free skate rules. Even so, it's not uncommon for the 3T after the 2A to be called as underrotated.

Similarly, I think 3S+3Lo might be easier than 2A+3Lo.

My opinion is based on what elite skaters have actually done, which admittedly is influenced by what they think the judges will reward more highly (under 6.0) or what they know will allow a higher base mark or predict they can earn higher GOEs for (under IJS), and also my own experience doing single jumps, which admittedly have very different physics, especially waltz jumps vs. any kind of axels.

Wicked Yankee Girl
Zayak and Witt had 2A3T at various points in their careers, AFAIR.

As to the 3A3Lp, other than Hollander, I don't remember anyone, but Boitano, Orser and Petrenko all did 3A2Lp at the 1988 Olympics.

Record Breaker
In terms of GOE potential, layout 2 has, all things considered, only merely 0.2 higher GOE potential on paper than layout 1, out of 7 jumping passes.

Did you mean .6 higher GOE potential? 'Cause that's what it is. 2.1 - 1.5

And it's not just the potential, it's a scale of value (SOV). A +++ on the SOV of a 2axel is only .1 more than a ++ on the SOV of a triple. As I pointed out before, that means that a skater who gets +++ on a 3lutz/3toe and +++ on a 2axel will get only .1 more in total score than a skater who gets a ++ on a 2axel/3toe and a +++ on a 3lutz, even though skater 2 did easier jumping passes and did them with less quality! The SOV is an important consideration and makes a huge difference in score.

gkelly

Record Breaker
Zayak and Witt had 2A3T at various points in their careers, AFAIR.

Yes, and I can name a couple more from the 1990s. Off the top of my head, Kyoko Ina at 1997 US Nationals, which might have been her only clean triple there (in the singles competition).

But it was rarer than 3T+3T, which to me suggests either that 2A+3T is more difficult than 3T+3T or else that skaters thought judges would be more impressed by the idea of a triple-triple combination so it was more worth it to try 3T+3T even if that was slightly more difficult than 2A+3T.

As to the 3A3Lp, other than Hollander, I don't remember anyone,

Scroll back, I linked to a video of Alexander Abt doing it at 1998 Nation's Cup and also mentioned that Jayson Denommee had done it in Canada.

but Boitano, Orser and Petrenko all did 3A2Lp at the 1988 Olympics

Yup. Kurt Browning and others have also done it since, including Mao Asada. It was Hollander's go-to combination in the mid-90s.

However, I was stating that I can't remember ever seeing 2A+3Lo in competition from a man or a woman. I probably saw it in practice from Hollander when he was working up to the 3-3 (which I never saw from him in competition).

wallylutz and Krislite seemed to be arguing that 2A+3Lo would be a relatively easy combination for a good female jumper to include. I'm asking, if it's easier than a triple-triple, how come I can't remember anyone ever doing it?

FlattFan

Match Penalty
However, I was stating that I can't remember ever seeing 2A+3Lo in competition from a man or a woman. I probably saw it in practice from Hollander when he was working up to the 3-3 (which I never saw from him in competition).

wallylutz and Krislite seemed to be arguing that 2A+3Lo would be a relatively easy combination for a good female jumper to include. I'm asking, if it's easier than a triple-triple, how come I can't remember anyone ever doing it?

Rachael Flatt just did it last month. First jumping pass around 1:10

jenaj

Record Breaker
I apologize if this has been answered one of these highly technical posts, but isn't there a limit on the number of combos that can be done in a LP? What is it? Are three combos really allowed? Leaving that aside, I think that three jump combos are pointless. They don't show a great deal of skill, since most elite skaters can do them, and the third jump is usually pretty weak. I would not assign any points to the third jump.

wallylutz

Medalist
But it was rarer than 3T+3T, which to me suggests either that 2A+3T is more difficult than 3T+3T or else that skaters thought judges would be more impressed by the idea of a triple-triple combination so it was more worth it to try 3T+3T even if that was slightly more difficult than 2A+3T.

Depending on who you ask, 2A+3T is not necessarily easier than 3T+3T. An Axel jump can be rather tricky when used as a first jump in combination. However, logically, most people would see 3T+3T as having a higher value and certainly under the 6.0 system, it was still a Triple-Triple combo that carried somewhat of a psychological weight on the audience and people watching.

However, I was stating that I can't remember ever seeing 2A+3Lo in competition from a man or a woman. I probably saw it in practice from Hollander when he was working up to the 3-3 (which I never saw from him in competition).

Maybe not in your experience but recent examples have demonstrated that more and more ladies have tried and will likely try combination jumps that include Triple Loop in the near future as demonstrated by skaters named already.

wallylutz and Krislite seemed to be arguing that 2A+3Lo would be a relatively easy combination for a good female jumper to include. I'm asking, if it's easier than a triple-triple, how come I can't remember anyone ever doing it?

Sorry, that's not what I said. I do think it's realistic combination to include for elite ladies today but it's not necessarily easier than a triple-triple. Krislite was the one who suggested, in his/her example, that replacing triple-triple with 2A+3Lo makes the jumping layout easier. I don't entirely agree.

wallylutz

Medalist
I apologize if this has been answered one of these highly technical posts, but isn't there a limit on the number of combos that can be done in a LP? What is it? Are three combos really allowed? Leaving that aside, I think that three jump combos are pointless. They don't show a great deal of skill, since most elite skaters can do them, and the third jump is usually pretty weak. I would not assign any points to the third jump.

The limit is 3 combos. As for your comment re 3 jumps combo, I beg to differ. They are far from gimmicks. Depending on what's in the jump combo and how it was executed. There are people who do 4T+3T+3T, that's a 3 jump combo. Or someone who did Triple Lutz/half Loop/Triple Salchow, the 3rd jump is harder than the 2nd jump. So it wouldn't be a good idea to generalize.

wallylutz

Medalist
The 2A 3T combination is the biggest cop out there is and your right, there is no way that it should score the same as a proper triple triple combination

I am sorry, what makes you think 2A+3T equals even the most basic 3/3?

2A+3T = 3.3 + 4.1 = 7.4
3T+3T = 4.1 + 4.1 = 8.2

Differential = 0.8, almost equal to the difference in value between a Triple Loop and a Triple Lutz, and about 4 times more than the super mega GOE earning differential that the thread starter and other Yu Na fans have been going gaga about in the last few days.

wallylutz

Medalist
I'm not sure how doable that is, since I don't recall ever seeing a 2A+3Lo combination in competition. Who am I forgetting? And was it strong enough for the skater realistically to put a double loop afterward?

Even 2A+3T was always rare before the current rules. I'm not sure that it's any easier than 3T+3T, but it's a better allocation of resources for a skater who wants to do 7 triples in 7 jump passes and also to repeat her two hardest triples and meet the "axel-type jump" requirement in today's free skate rules. Even so, it's not uncommon for the 3T after the 2A to be called as underrotated.

Similarly, I think 3S+3Lo might be easier than 2A+3Lo.

My opinion is based on what elite skaters have actually done, which admittedly is influenced by what they think the judges will reward more highly (under 6.0) or what they know will allow a higher base mark or predict they can earn higher GOEs for (under IJS), and also my own experience doing single jumps, which admittedly have very different physics, especially waltz jumps vs. any kind of axels.

One of my favorite double jump into a Triple Loop combo of all time by a lady:

I know a few posters have since reminded you of a couple of recent ladies who did the 2A+3Lo combos but I agree it's rather rare. So I have since re-arranged the jumping layout a little bit, to show a different perspective. It still doesn't change the fact you need the 3/3 combo in order to pack that many content into a FS, and the proposition of thread starter still does not hold.

1) 3Lz
2) 3F+3Lo
3) 2A+3T
4) 3Lz+1Lo*+3S
5) 3F
6) 2A
7) 2Lz

*Denotes half Loop, explicitly allowed under the 2010-2011 season ISU rules for the purpose of jump combination construction

The base value drops to 45.2, but the only Loop jump combo is a fairly common Triple Loop with a Triple Flip, which many ladies have tried and landed, mostly the younger generation however. The Flip+Loop combo can be easily interchanged with a Triple Lutz+Triple Loop that even junior ladies are doing these days depending on personal preference. The Double Axel is now paired with a fairly standard Triple Toe Loop, nothing scandalous there. The Triple Lutz + Triple Salchow combo is inspired from men's skating but ladies having been doing 3 jump combo that uses the half Loop into Triple Salchow as the final jump for eons so nothing too demanding here either. The drop in base value stems from the loss of a Double Loop, now replaced by a Half Loop = Single Loop in order to avoid the repetition of a 2nd Triple Loop combo that many people and yourself find somewhat nasty to do and you are probably right. It is partially offset by the repetition of the Triple Flip in lieu of the Triple Loop, with slightly higher BV. Overall this layout may appear a little more reasonable and still cannot be replicated by eliminating the 3/3 combos.

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Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Talk about a thread regressing. I can't even begin to delve into the bad logic and poor points being made. What really took the cake was talking about Ladies doing 3Axel+3Loop combinations and 2Axel+2Loop+3Sal combinations, with the Loop landed on the inside edge of the opposing foot such that it actually is a combination...and then using that as an argument for why CoP is properly balanced right now?!?!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_xow_TISys7o/S_z_noAYxlI/AAAAAAAAAAs/3sUpEMfjR-M/s1600/epic-fail[1].jpg

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
As far as I'm concerned, any Lady who could do

3A+3L
3A+3L
3Lz+3T+2L
3F
3S
2A
2A

would not need to bother gaming the system for another point.

As for

2A+3L
2A+3L
3A+3T+2L
3A
3Lz
3F
3S

why not 3A+3T+3T? Or 3Lz +3T+3T in the first layout? Should impress the hell out of the judges. I would be impressed. But just which Lady do you suppose has a program with such jumps and combos?

Mathman

I think Krislite’s original claim can be revised to “a skater can always replace at least one triple-triple with a 2A-triple in such a way as to maintain the same base value while picking up the potential to grab an extra tenth or two in GOEs.”

I agree with Wallylutz that the extra GOE thing is so small as to be swamped by other considerations. However, I do believe that the current scoring system does nothing much to encourage and reward skaters who essay difficult triple-triples.

IMHO Blade of Passion’s idea is the right one. Each combination separately should be evaluated as to difficulty and given a base value as a unit. In execution, this would not make the scoring system more complicated for technical specialists and judges (although fans would have to memorize a longer scale of values ), because the arithmetic is all done in the computer anyway.

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
I think Krislite’s original claim can be revised to “a skater can always replace at least one triple-triple with a 2A-triple in such a way as to maintain the same base value while picking up the potential to grab an extra tenth or two in GOEs.”

The gaming is based on including a triple in every combo to gain GOE advantage. But the extra GOE is a doubled edged sword. It also costs a skater more when negative.

I agree with Wallylutz that the extra GOE thing is so small as to be swamped by other considerations. However, I do believe that the current scoring system does nothing much to encourage and reward skaters who essay difficult triple-triples.

Agreed. Simple combo bonus has been advocated but rejected by ISU.

IMHO Blade of Passion’s idea is the right one. Each combination separately should be evaluated as to difficulty and given a base value as a unit. In execution, this would not make the scoring system more complicated for technical specialists and judges (although fans would have to memorize a longer scale of values ), because the arithmetic is all done in the computer anyway.

It is too complicated, requiring a revamping of the entire scoring system plus change of requirements. Jumps still commend much higher points than other elements so the 3 proposed elective elements would be elected to be jumping passes.

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