Two Clean Programs | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Two Clean Programs

-- OR a short program where every year the tempo of the music is selected, the kinds of jumps, and, say, spin levels -- but everyone takes those rules and makes their own music selection and choreographs the SP accordingly (so, kind of like compulsary dance) and a LP.
That's a pretty cool idea, too. Only I would say make it more like an OD. Choose the tempo and the type of music, and then leave it up to the skaters which elements to use in order to express their choreographic conception.

To me, the biggest disappointment in CoP-friendly programs is that the technical elements are rarely part of the program. There is some skating. Then that stops and you do a triple/triple combination, a level three flying Camel combo spin and a double Axel. Then you go on with your program for a while until it's time to do the next jump.

Emma's plan would put the emphasis back on the program, with the technical elements supporting the program instead of the other way around.

Maybe nostalgia makes things seem rosier than they really were, but I miss those programs where the technical elements seemed like part of the program. Check out John Curry's 1976 Olympic LP, for instance, or Michelle Kwan's Red Violin.
 
Maybe nostalgia makes things seem rosier than they really were, but I miss those programs where the technical elements seemed like part of the program. Check out John Curry's 1976 Olympic LP, for instance, or Michelle Kwan's Red Violin.

Don't forget to check out Vladimir Kovalev's 1976 Olympic LP and Irina Slutskaya's Don Quixote as well.

Then compare to the 2006 or 2007 medalists and get back to us. ;)
 
What I was thinking of is the opposite. Like a football game. There is the first half. Then there is the second half. Whoever scores the most points in both halves combined wins.
Is there a reason to allow, say, only fieldgoals in the first half and only touchdowns in the second? Or a required number of running and passing plays in one half or another? Or an exhibition of blocking and tackling technique?
I do not see any purpose in a "basic skills" contest. If you don't have basic skills, like jumping, spinning, etc., why are you out there?


And football players aren't restricted in the number and kinds of ways they can score and skaters are.

Skating is, after all, a discipline which means that there's a right way to do an element and a wrong way. The SP was more about doing things the right way (substance over style) while the LP was more about derring do (style over substance).

The purpose for a 'basic skills' contest is that the basic skills are really hard to do properly (observe preponderance of lipping and flutzing profusion of crappy spins in whatever class isn't fashionable or being stressed by the judges, currently that would be camel spins, which are mostly awful nowadays).

Let's look at history again, the short program began as a way to increase the importance of free skating while maintaining a three-day competition format (figures were reduced to one day rather than spread over two days).

Since mini-medals began at the same time, there was probably a plan to eventually split the three days of competition into three medals somehow (probably figures, free-skating and combined) but this never really got anywhere.

The original SP had requirements because the free skate did not (one of the reasons it was called a free skate) and it was a way to make sure that individual skaters didn't completely neglect spinning in favor of jumping or vice-versa. Restrictions and requirements though slowly began accruing for the LP mostly in reaction to individual skaters that the establishment did not want other skaters emulating (Zayak, the 80's skater whose LP had almost no spins, etc).

With the elimination of figures, the SP essentially became the way that skaters were seeded for the final (figures had served to seed skaters for the SP).
And since all other judged sports have a 'compulsory' phase and a 'free' phase that made some sense.
But the requirements for the SP began to be loosened for no good reason (except to give the audience a chance to see more triples from the ladies) so that it resembled a compulsory round less and less.
The advent of the qualifying round and it's eventual inclusion in scoring were the real death knell for the SP serving any real purpose (I used to think that the SP had a purpose longer but there was no earthly rational reason to have both a qualifying round that counted _and_ an SP.

With COP it's just padding, a way to stretch the drama out over two days and since both programs are all about the big tricks now, it also gives the skaters more opportunities to injure themselves to appeal to the schadenfreude demographic.

In that case, for practical reasons relating to promotion of the sport, I'd prefer to have two sets of medals for different kinds of skating rather than one set. The drama can be maintained though perhaps in a different way:

"Tommy Toeloop took gold in the compulsory event, can he repeat in free skating or will Sammy Sitspin overcome him?"

"Betty Biellmannspin finished out of the medals in compulsories, can she find redemption and go for gold in free skating or will Denise Deathdrop repeat her golden ways?"

"Frannie Flutz the compulsory winner had to withdraw from free skating, who can take advantage of her absence?"
 
red violin

I loved Michelle's Red Violin program. it didnt look as like she was completing a list of elements, it was a well-balanced, whole, great program. My favorite of all time, to be completely honest.
 
I can not use the football analogy to satisfy the use of a Short Program. In football the purpose of the plays of the two 'halves' are exactly the same to make the same goals. If, however, one wants the two programs of figure skating to be just another exercise for point gathering with insignificant differences in its plays other than duration, then so be it. This is what we already have. We also have SOI and all those Holiday Shows to keep those fans who want figure skating any which way it is presented to be happy. Some, of course, want it only as a Sport.

I can only speak for myself, and for me, the SP as it is now included in the competitive scheme has little interest in the 'art' of figure skating not covered by the LP, and it doesn't have to be. Nothing wrong with changing it to give it additional judging skills not covered in the LP except hidden somewhere in the CoP. (Let's face it, 'Skating Skills' is such a broad term, and how can they change from the SP to the LP?). The SP could compare contestants' skating skills up front, and with those scores not only assist in picking out the 'best' skater but improving the artistic sport as well in future.

The present set-up of the SP does not do that. There isn't even the term Technique in the PCS glossary. Prerotation take offs, sloppy edge take offs, travelling spins, undefinable rockers, counters, brackets and 3 turns all could be examined in the SP as specific and not mixed up with the number of rotations in a jump.

However, those fans who must have the programs as is, why not lengthen the SP to that of the LP and call it Skate 1 to be preceded by Skate 2. We could all sit back and watch the show and not the sport. Pagaents are quite popular.

Joe
 
I loved Michelle's Red Violin program. it didnt look as like she was completing a list of elements, it was a well-balanced, whole, great program. My favorite of all time, to be completely honest.

Do I say something stupid, if I say that 99% of all MK programs were great, well-balanced, whole, elements in relation to the music, original programs? :love:
I do like also the Bolero program.

Red Violin was a great program, very pleasant to watch. :love: The only problem was IMO the boring music. But one of the thing that made MK great was the fact that she could make great programs also to boring music.
Red Violin is not my kind of music, but the program, choreography, elements, all were :love:

MK, you are the Kween of FS. :bow: :bow:
 
I do not see any purpose in a "basic skills" contest. If you don't have basic skills, like jumping, spinning, etc., why are you out there?
I would agree with that statement but there is too much sloppy basics and very noticeable with the top tier skaters. Others just want to see pretty skating and they are getting that. Oh that ballet-like style and those Ina bauers, etc really close the door for many fans regarding basic skills (without quotes).

Can anyone explain what the component called Skating Ability is all about if it has no purpose? In fact can anyone explain what is Skating Ability? or are you stuck on Kwan's spiral? Or a quad lutz?

I really think posters who do not want to judge basics should just say, leave the SP the way it is.

Joe
 
Do I say something stupid, if I say that 99% of all MK programs were great, well-balanced, whole, elements in relation to the music, original programs? :love:
I do like also the Bolero program.

Red Violin was a great program, very pleasant to watch. :love: The only problem was IMO the boring music. But one of the thing that made MK great was the fact that she could make great programs also to boring music.
Red Violin is not my kind of music, but the program, choreography, elements, all were :love:

MK, you are the Kween of FS. :bow: :bow:

I disagree with Red Violin being the most balanced etc. By Worlds, the first half was stroke jump stroke jump stroke spin. It wasn't until the second half where she really started to blend everything amazingly well and come alive with choreography. The second half was a work of art, the first half was stroke-jump-fest 2000. Taj Mahal, now that's a seemless masterpiece.

Bebe Liang's programs have always been very well-balanced and seemless in the way she blends jumps with choreography (and very hard triple jumps at that). See her Nationals 2005 performance. Too bad she just can't pull herself together.

I think the idea of a compulsory program for the skaters is quite intriguing. But alas, the compulsory gymnastics programs eventuallyh got the axe, because they weren't drawing the crowds and didn't make for good tv. It's unfortunate that today's sps all have become mini-lps. Maybe if they have the sp as it is but as previous posters said before assign levels to the elements that they have to perform, so Yuna Kim has to do a triple-double with a double loop or a double flip included, and a level 2 spiral sequence, and a level 2 or 3 step sequence. Kinda like what they did in the 80s. I thought it was cool how different skaters incorporated the required elements, e.g. Ito did 2R-3R, whereas other skaters chose a different combination. And while I'm tired of today's spiral sequences (COE-catchfoot, back inside catch...) I prefer them to the mid 90s where everyone would hold their mediiocre spirals for half a second before dashing across the ice in what they mistakenly believed to be step sequences.
 
Can anyone explain what the component called Skating Ability is all about if it has no purpose? In fact can anyone explain what is Skating Ability?
I don’t know if this helps, but anyway, this is what the ISU thinks the Skating Skills component comprises (for singles):

1. Balance and rhymic knee action and precision of foot placement.
2. Flow and effortless glide.
3. Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns.
4. Power/energy and acceleration.
5. Mastery of multidirectional skating.
6. Mastery of one-foot skating.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152077-169293-64120-0-file,00.pdf

So the question is, do we need a separate competiton to test these skills, or can the judges evaluate them adequately in the context of a full program?

BTW, according to the scale of values,

Outstanding = 10
Superior = 9
Very good = 8
Good = 7
Above average = 6
Etc.

This is interesting, because according to this scale, no skater in the history of the CoP has ever exhibited “superior” Skating Skills (a score of 9 in the PCSs).
 
This is interesting, because according to this scale, no skater in the history of the CoP has ever exhibited “superior” Skating Skills (a score of 9 in the PCSs).

This is really interesting! I am not against COP, actually it is a good idea - but at least the skaters got a 6.0 when they were really really good (and sometimes when they were just famous / favourite or the judges were corrupt...).

The "best" skating skills mark I could find was Plushenko's: 8.46 at Olympics, 8.25 at Europeans 2006. So he was a bit better than "very good" at skating skills. The question than is how did he ever get all those 6.0? For example at the World Championships 2004 in the Free Skate he got four 6.0 at Presentation, at the second freeskate of the Grand Prix Final 2003 he got six 6.0 at Presentation. So after the introduction of COP he was never perfect again? No PCS was ever beyond 8.5 for him.

Then there is Jeffrey Buttle. His skating skills rank between "good" (Cup of Russia 2007 --> 7.0) and "very good" (Torino 2006 --> 7.79). Did he just have a decline in skating skills? In my opinion his edges are just as good as they were in 2006, as is his flow. And, the really funny thing is - at the Europeans 2007 Kevin van der Perren got a 7.04 in skating skills. I love KvdP, I love his performance he did at Europeans - but I just watched it again and compared it with Buttle's at the CoR. And there is just no way that Buttle's skating skills were worse than KvdP at the Europeans 2007.

And that Lysacek always gets skating skills as good and sometimes better than Weir and Buttle is just beyond my understanding. Of course it also says

4. Power/energy and acceleration.

but just because Lysacek moves very fast and, in my opinion, somehow frantic - he has to get skating skills as good as Buttle, Weir and sometimes even Lambiel (Cup of China 2007 Lambiel 7.25 and Lysacek 7.5).

Just thinking about it - how do they make up the mark anyway? Let's take Lysacek: he has great power/energy, but not that good flow, edges and moderate mastery of multidirectional and one-foot-skating. What do they consider? And why doesn't Lambiel get 9 to 10 in skating skills? Because in my opinion he combines lyrical skating with powerful skating. And you can say superior to every one of the six
1. Balance and rhymic knee action and precision of foot placement.
2. Flow and effortless glide.
3. Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns.
4. Power/energy and acceleration.
5. Mastery of multidirectional skating.
6. Mastery of one-foot skating.

Perhaps a separate competition for these abilities wouldn't be a bad idea...
 
I don’t know if this helps, but anyway, this is what the ISU thinks the Skating Skills component comprises (for singles):

1. Balance and rhymic knee action and precision of foot placement.
2. Flow and effortless glide.
3. Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns.
4. Power/energy and acceleration.
5. Mastery of multidirectional skating.
6. Mastery of one-foot skating.
I think we are all aware of the above, but it is never clear in the scoring that each of the 6 have actually been judged. Few skaters have all six.

No. l alludes to skating directly to the music?
No. 2 alludes to skating with a variety of good stroking?
No. 3 alludes to wrong edge take-offs, spin travelling and tripping on footwork?
No. 4 alludes to fatigue and controlled speed?
No. 5 alludes to varied choreography covering the whole ice?
No. 6 alludes to what? a one foot spin? A long pause entry into a jump?

To judge these items would take more than a few minutes of time allotted to the judges. It is probably judged by the standards of the 6.0 system for 'whole package', and grades are just spread out before times up.

Much of these items are covered elsewhere. However, I maintain that these items could be of paramount importance in judging the SP rather than scoring the quads and 3As. A jump by definition is fulfilling the basics of the jumps; A spin that has proper position and does not travel is fulfilling the basics of spins; A footwork to include three, bracket, rocker and counter turns in straight, circular and serpentine figures moving in both difrections will fulfill the stroking basics.

I'm just putting this out there as a cause for better skating through the SP. I am aware that most posters couldn't care less about them once a skater demonstrates certain pet moves that they adore.

I'm also aware that quads, 3As, 180 degree spirals are the basics now.

Joe
 
1. Balance and rhymic knee action and precision of foot placement.
No. l alludes to skating directly to the music?

Not necessarily, although stroking in time with the music should be rewarded somewhat here.

Basically it's how steady are the skaters on their feet and over their edges, how neatly do they do steps like mohawks and choctaws, etc.

For rhythmic knee action, watch the very beginning of the warmup, before the skaters start practicing tricks and are just stroking around and when there is no music (or at least no program music) being played.

The freestyle skaters who are particularly good in this area will have will be more even over both feet and will bend their knees more evenly and smoothly than the skaters who are not so good at this. But the dancers tend to be very good at this. If you just watch the stroking at the beginning of a dance warmup even at not quite the elite levels you should see some good examples of rhythmic knee action independent of music.

Dancers also tend to be a lot neater on average than freestylers in their foot placement.

2. Flow and effortless glide.
No. 2 alludes to skating with a variety of good stroking?

Yeah. Do they seem to accelerate effortlessly and fluidly, or does the stroking seem choppy or effortful? Do the turns blend in fluidly with the rest of the skating, or do they slow down, scratch or scrape, etc.

3. Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns.
No. 3 alludes to wrong edge take-offs, spin travelling and tripping on footwork?

Definitely yes on the footwork, and also spirals and other gliding moves -- both in the step sequences and spiral sequences, and also in every step, turn, and edge between the elements. Not only whether or not the skater trips, but also how securely s/he holds the edges, and how deep the edges are.
Scrapy turns or changing edge before or after counters, rockers, brackets, or choctaws so that they essentially turn into threes or mohawks would also be penalized here.

Maybe some consideration for takeoff and landing edges, but those would primarily be covered in the GOEs for the jumps -- this component is really more about the actual skating than about the jumps and spins.

4. Power/energy and acceleration.
No. 4 alludes to fatigue and controlled speed?

Yeah. Mainly to technique in generating speed, what part of the blade the skater pushes from and what part s/he glides on. Fatigue might cause the technique as well as the energy to deteriorate, which would lead to less power and acceleration.

5. Mastery of multidirectional skating.
No. 5 alludes to varied choreography covering the whole ice?

That would be part of it. Mainly: does the skater stroke in both clockwise and counterclockwise directions and perform turns in both directions?

6. Mastery of one-foot skating.
No. 6 alludes to what? a one foot spin? A long pause entry into a jump?

Again, the components are less about the elements than the in-betweens.
How much time does the skater spend gliding (or turning) on two feet? Not spread eagles/Ina Bauers, but just the basic skating. If there's a lot of time with both feet on the ice, that would be penalized here. On the other hand, if the skater can stay on one foot for a long time, generating power through edge pulls and turns, and turning several times, even in both directions, that would be rewarded here.

To judge these items would take more than a few minutes of time allotted to the judges. It is probably judged by the standards of the 6.0 system for 'whole package', and grades are just spread out before times up.

Well, the judges are taking note of these all the way through the program (in their heads, and often on paper). They also did under 6.0. The standards for what's considered good skating skills haven't changed, only the process of assigning the scores.
 
The "best" skating skills mark I could find was Plushenko's: 8.46 at Olympics, 8.25 at Europeans 2006.

The ice dancers tend to get better skating skills marks than the freestylers.

During the first year of the new judging system (2003 Grand Prix), some of the top dancers did get 9s for Skating Skills from some individual judges, although the averages were in the high 8s.

After that year there seemed to be an adjustment toward being slightly less generous with PCS scores across the board. But the top dancers still generally score well into the 8s.
 
The ice dancers tend to get better skating skills marks than the freestylers.
Indeed! That's an example of my points. With ice dancers the skating skills are quite obvious and can easily be taken into account by just looking. I just don't believe the same for the basics being judged fairly with men flying around with wow turns in the air and ladies with spirals pointing to the ceiling.

Joe
 
But, getting back to topic: It seems that few top rated skaters can execute two clean programs throughout the season. I see this as a big change since the early 90s. Of course many of the boys had splatfest during those years, but there were the medalists.

Joe
 
Back
Top