Should skaters receive "clean program" bonuses?

[4everchan]

It depends.
Imagine that a skater makes a mistake at the beginning of the program and knows that he/she is not getting the clean bonus. Then he/she will be, quite contrary, encouraged to do the most difficult jumps to make it up.

which actually may be relatively dangerous... don't you think so ?

 

[Anna K.]

which actually may be relatively dangerous... don't you think so ?

Figure skating is relatively dangerous all the time. Don't you think so?

 

[4everchan]

Figure skating is relatively dangerous all the time. Don't you think so?

of course, so why add danger.... I can see some young athletes, having lost their chance at a bonus, trying a quad again, in the second half, because they popped the first one... and then, get injured because they are even more tense and tired than earlier...

Look, I am in agreement with you when it comes to wanting cleaner programs. Splat fests are far from being exciting to watch. I have shared my opinion in this thread : there is no need for a bonus if the Performance PCS score was properly evaluated, not linked to composition and skating skills and definitely not linked to TES.

The problem resides there. If judges were more generous when a skater does well and on the opposite more strict when there are blatant mistakes, we wouldn't be talking about bonuses..

BTW : I am sure you are aware of this but in earlier categories, for instance in novice, did you know that in some feds, there are bonuses given, not for being clean but for landing bigger jumps Canadian novices will get a bonus for a 3-3 combo or a hard triple ... don't quote me on the rules I just see bonus in the score cards and I know they are given not for being clean but for including harder content.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Bonus points is too difficult. I think a fall on an element should result in zero points. There's so much emphasis lately that figure skating is a sport - well you don't get points in high jump when the bar falls down, even if you've almost made it. It's a failed element.

Those are two very different sports. There's no "grade of execution" on a high jump. The bar falls or doesn't - it doesn't matter how ugly or perfect form it looks.

It definitely shouldn't be based on GOE being positive because a telegraphed triple lutz that has zero transitions, musicality, bad air position, poor height/distance, might still be landed perfectly cleanly. A spin can be a level B and "clean" with 0 GOE versus a level 4 spin travels or slows down. Both are considered "clean". A pairs SBS spin or jump is done completely out of unison but both skaters execute the spin/jump cleanly. And the reality is - judges give lower/negative GOE to 'inferior' skaters who land their elements cleanly and they'll give positive GOE to skaters who have a stepout or put a hand/foot down on a jump.

A fall being zero points is WAY too harsh (i.e. so a clean single axel is worth more than a fully rotated triple axel fall?). You're already losing half the points of base value, losing 1 point deduction -- and often a fall is UR or q or << which is an even greater loss of points. Plus, if the judges are judging correctly (you know, because they always do that!), the program components (presentation especially) will be accordingly reduced. The PCS maximums are still WAY too high for multiple falls - and are used to 'save' popular skaters.

 

[Anna K.]

of course, so why add danger.... I can see some young athletes, having lost their chance at a bonus, trying a quad again, in the second half, because they popped the first one... and then, get injured because they are even more tense and tired than earlier...

Young skaters are taught how to fall safely after a rotation jump very early in their carriers. Once they have learned that, I honestly don't see how falling from one more jump "adds danger".

there is no need for a bonus if the Performance PCS score was properly evaluated, not linked to composition and skating skills and definitely not linked to TES.

Currently, there are no "Performance PCS"; PCS consists of Composition, Presentation and Skating Skills.
Presentation is defined as "the demonstration of engagement, commitment and involvement based on an understanding of the music and composition", so it can hardly become separated from Composition. The Presentation bullet points are:

• Expressiveness & projection
• Variety and contrast of energy and of movements
• Musical sensitivity and timing
• Oneness and awareness of space (Pair Skating, Ice Dance, Synchronized Skating)

I can't see how fair judging on these separately from Composition and Skating Skills and separately from TES could put the end to splat fests.

 

[4everchan]

Young skaters are taught how to fall safely after a rotation jump very early in their carriers. Once they have learned that, I honestly don't see how falling from one more jump "adds danger".

well... it's not because you are taught to do something that you will always manage... otherwise, everyone would land all their jumps

Currently, there are no "Performance PCS"; PCS consists of Composition, Presentation and Skating Skills.
Presentation is defined as "the demonstration of engagement, commitment and involvement based on an understanding of the music and composition", so it can hardly become separated from Composition. The Presentation bullet points are:

• Expressiveness & projection
• Variety and contrast of energy and of movements
• Musical sensitivity and timing
• Oneness and awareness of space (Pair Skating, Ice Dance, Synchronized Skating)

I can't see how fair judging on these separately from Composition and Skating Skills and separately from TES could put the end to splat fests.

I meant presentation... it used to be performance/ execution
In any case, if you cannot see how evaluating presentation/performance/execution separately from composition and skating skills, then we have to agree to disagree because for me, that's possible and one clear path into rewarding clean programs. I don't believe in bonuses... I don't believe that people will stop trying hard things and risky things if they are not penalized harder... I don' t want base values to be lowered just for the sake of a bonus... if a skater opts to do this on their own, because they want to skate clean, that's their prerogative.

As people have mentioned, the judging system is already rewarding clean execution with GOE. That's pretty much a bonus on the base value.

Also, keep in mind that it could lead to a lot of problems : how many times have we said in competition thread : OMG.. that time violation deduction or that extended lift deduction just caused that team to be off the podium... I am not too sure a bonus rule would be well- perceived if, in the end, it created situation that seemed unfair.

Let's not play the ISU game of changing rules because we think the system is broken, and by doing so, creating new rules that leave the system broken

 

[Karoltyna]

Bonus points is too difficult. I think a fall on an element should result in zero points. There's so much emphasis lately that figure skating is a sport - well you don't get points in high jump when the bar falls down, even if you've almost made it. It's a failed element.

In skijumping you get points for "style" and it is possible that shorter jump with good landing will get more points than longer jump but with fall or ugly landing. But it applies only to jumps of similar length, 100 m perfect jump will never be awarded more than 120 m jump with fall. So I don't think that awarding "clean overall" makes sense but I also don't think that an element performed but with mistake should be invalid. A popped but landed 2T will be awarded and 4T with touchdown or stumble on the exit will be 0? Yup, here you've got me defending quads...

 

[4everchan]

In some sports, if your run is not "clean" you are out... for instance in slopestyle or in halfpipe

In diving, if you can get a 0 if you don't dive head first or if you "pop".

Figure skating, in that sense, is closer to gymnastics. At the same time, their code of point is also very complicated and as we saw at Paris games, the judging can be iffy ...

It is clear the OP wants to reward clean skating and who doesn't like clean skating ? However, who won 4CC this weekend ? In all pairs, men and women, the cleanest skaters won. What else do we want ?

 

[Anna K.]

I meant presentation... it used to be performance/ execution
In any case, if you cannot see how evaluating presentation/performance/execution separately from composition and skating skills, then we have to agree to disagree because for me, that's possible and one clear path into rewarding clean programs.

Before I agree or disagree, I need to know what you are talking about. Do you talk about Presentation how it is currently defined by ISU? Or, do you have/propose your own definition/concept?
If the latter, I'd like to learn more before I agree or disagree.

 

[4everchan]

Before I agree or disagree, I need to know what you are talking about. Do you talk about Presentation how it is currently defined by ISU? Or, do you have/propose your own definition/concept?
If the latter, I'd like to learn more before I agree or disagree.

My first post in this thread is clear...

 

[Anna K.]

My first post in this thread is clear...

Well, whatever. Thanks for posting in this thread!

 

[4everchan]

Well, whatever. Thanks for posting in this thread!

Good discussion!

 

[Mathman]

which actually may be relatively dangerous... don't you think so ?

I don't think the danger level would be any higher than it already is. Never mind bonuses, if you miss some elements early you have to pour on the coal at the end to try and catch up. If a skater plans a triple-triple as the first element, but is to get off the second jump, he might try tacking it onto a planned solo jump at the end. (Sometimes with disastrous consequences for unintentional Zayacking, especially since the skater can't be sure how the first attempt was scored by the tech panel.)

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't think the danger level would be any higher than it already is. Never mind bonuses, if you miss some elements early you have to pour on the coal at the end to try and catch up. If a skater plans a triple-triple as the first element, but is to get off the second jump, he might try tacking it onto a planned solo jump at the end. (Sometimes with disastrous consequences for unintentional Zayacking, especially since the skater can't be sure how the first attempt was scored by the tech panel.)

This is great for skaters who can think on their feet, but sometimes with an error or lack of experience you might forget. One of the best "thinking on your feet" examples was Zagitova's clutch FS to win the Olympics where she had an iffy triple lutz landing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlXCk1LDlC0&t=160s), but rather than go for the -3L on that lutz, she saved it for her second lutz attempt and nailed it. You knew it was an "error" if you knew her layout and saw how she landed the first lutz, but after saving it she saved the gold medal and ended up being a clean skate.

But it also goes the other way.... Zhiming Peng (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXJUJfO516Q) for example cost himself a lot of points by not doing a 4S in combination in the FS leading to a +REP reduction in BV, even though the 2nd quad attempt was stellar. https://results.isu.org/results/sea...------FNL-000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf. That being said I would consider it a "clean skate" had he done all the other jumps cleanly, even if he forgot to do a jump in combination.

I do miss the pre-IJS where a skater might throw in a jumping pass or crazy combo to 'redeem' themselves, like Midori Ito (her second triple axel attempt) or Lu Chen (her "3-3" attempt). Now however, it makes more sense for a skater to stick to a game plan. Judges now don't give brownie points for "having guts". But to me, it is more impressive when a skater tries harder difficulty even though it puts a clean program at risk.

Savchenko/Szolkowy ending their program on a throw (which would be utterly disastrous if there was a fall, as a final impression, and ending off the music) showed such confidence (ironically it was the footwork where the error was!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARZ_c2hRs28

 

[Zora]

A fall being zero points is WAY too harsh (i.e. so a clean single axel is worth more than a fully rotated triple axel fall?).

I disagree, I don't think it's too harsh. First of all, skaters with lower difficulty already experience this, because they get the GOE deduction and the fall deduction, so for example a 2T is basically worth less than doing no jump at all, so it's already happening. The fall deduction is relatively a lot bigger on less difficult jumps. Second, yes, I think a clean single axel should be worth more than a fall on a 3A. A 1A isn't worth a lot, it's completely unrealistic that a skater with little difficulty would suddenly beat a top skater that way. Third, I think it makes the sport more viewer-friendly and easier to understand. A fall = zero points. If we take Yuzuru Hanyu's Cup of China performance from 2014 and eliminate all points of elements he fell on (and no additional fall deduction), he would have still been in 5th place, but not on the podium.

A popped but landed 2T will be awarded and 4T with touchdown or stumble on the exit will be 0?

No, I was just talking about falls.

 

[gkelly]

I disagree, I don't think it's too harsh. First of all, skaters with lower difficulty already experience this, because they get the GOE deduction and the fall deduction, so for example a 2T is basically worth less than doing no jump at all, so it's already happening. The fall deduction is relatively a lot bigger on less difficult jumps. Second, yes, I think a clean single axel should be worth more than a fall on a 3A.

But should a single axel with a fall be worth the exact same amount (i.e., nothing) as a triple axel with a fall?

Also, how would this work in short programs where single axels are not allowed at junior and senior levels?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I disagree, I don't think it's too harsh. First of all, skaters with lower difficulty already experience this, because they get the GOE deduction and the fall deduction, so for example a 2T is basically worth less than doing no jump at all, so it's already happening. The fall deduction is relatively a lot bigger on less difficult jumps. Second, yes, I think a clean single axel should be worth more than a fall on a 3A. A 1A isn't worth a lot, it's completely unrealistic that a skater with little difficulty would suddenly beat a top skater that way. Third, I think it makes the sport more viewer-friendly and easier to understand. A fall = zero points. If we take Yuzuru Hanyu's Cup of China performance from 2014 and eliminate all points of elements he fell on (and no additional fall deduction), he would have still been in 5th place, but not on the podium.


No, I was just talking about falls.

That Cup of China result was also attributed to ridiculously high PCS — 84.02 (the highest of all the skaters!!!!) with FIVE falls. He got 9’s from multiple judges and scores as high as 8.75 for performance and execution. It was arguably the worst PCS judgment ever.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpchn2014/gpchn2014_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

Also back then the deduction (-3 for a fall) wasn’t as severe. Had falls cost 50% on the GOE deduction his tech score would have been way lower, including mandatory cumulative-fall deductions.

In 2014 for those 5 fall passes Hanyu got 27.65 - 5.0 = 22.65 points (original base value of all of them was 40.71). So his falls got 68% of the base value and a -1 for each of the five falls.

If the 50% deduction off base value and incremental fall deductions (-1 for the first two falls, -2 for each of the next two falls, -3 for 5th fall), he would theoretically got 20.35 (50% - maybe slightly higher because some judges awarded -2’s instead of -3s so they might have given -4s instead of the usual -5). But then a mandatory -9 deduction. So his points would have been around 11-12 points. Which is about half of the points he was given under 2014 CoP… difference of about 10-11 points.

Couple that with the gross PCS judging (also way high PCS in the SP given he did just a triple toe instead of a quad, and stepped out of the lutz and this no combo). Unquestionably his FS PCS should have been sub-80, and if we are being fair to the field and treating him as an absolute instead of a favourite, low 70’s PCS. The falls completely detracted from the program’s interpretation and transitions (no exit transitions on falls), and of course performance and execution. If he was an newbie/unknown skater the judges would have buried him and put his PCS in the mid-60’s.

I don’t think Hanyu should have had zero points on those 5 passes which would have negated a whole 40 points. But definitely his PCS was too high and the fall deductions being not as severe back then (on GOE and there not being incrementally higher deductions after more than 2 falls) did help him.

Under today’s scoring deductions on falls Hanyu would have been 3rd no matter how much the judges tried to save him on PCS. And if the PCS were actually fair (no higher than 70-75 with 5 falls) he’d have been 18-20 points lower, 5th behind Ge, as you said. Which TBH is still a good GP result for any skater with 7 major errors - 5 FS falls, and giving up the equivalent of about 15 points of base value+GOE on the triple quad and the no-lutz-combo SP errors.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

But should a single axel with a fall be worth the exact same amount (i.e., nothing) as a triple axel with a fall?

Also, how would this work in short programs where single axels are not allowed at junior and senior levels?

I was about to ask the same thing… why should a singled/popped jump with a fall be worth the same as a triple/quad with a fall?


And in the SP if a solo triple lutz is turned into a clean double lutz (worth zero), that’s the same as a quad lutz with a fall if falls are worth zero.

 

[rabidline]

why should a singled/popped jump with a fall be worth the same as a triple/quad with a fall?

Because we want clean programs. Don't fall.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Because we want clean programs. Don't fall.

Skaters want clean programs too. But audience members aren’t entitled to see clean programs.

Are you going to be satisfied if every skater does only doubles in their programs and level 1 spins and footwork to avoid falls? You can always go watch exhibitions or ice dance if falls bother you so much.

I actually remember being in a job interview in my teens when I mentioned I’m a figure skater. And the interviewer was like “Oh, I like figure skating! But I don’t get how they could fall after practicing so much.” And I was a bit affronted but rather sassily retorted, “Well, basketball players miss free throws, football players fumble the ball… what’s your favourite sport?” She said tennis - I said “Some of those pro tennis players make millions of dollars, and practice daily. And yet they still make thousands of unforced errors every year.” I think she got the point… and somehow I still got the job lol.