Ugly Positions | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Ugly Positions

Kwanford, but you know what? About that fan spiral of Sasha's, once you get past the fire hydrant aspect and actually look at her edge, it's pretty amazing. Spirals are edge moves, after all, and the position of the upper body is just the frosting on the cake.

In this picture, it looks like she is on a back outside edge, but she's got her skating leg twisted around so she is going forward (or is she on a forward edge in this picture, going backward?) I can see where the judges want to reward that.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/olympics/2006/02/23/fig.womens.preview.ap/p1.sasha.cohen.si.jpg

MM
 
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Mathman is on to something.

Once you get over the ______aspect, you'll notice something else that might just be _______ of "something else." This is the true beauty of Figure Skating shining thru! It's "complexity of so many different aspects of talent" thru what appears to be ugly OR beautiful on the surface. All wrapped up in ONE KICK BUTT SPORT!!!!!
And remember you are all valid in your opinions, because "ugly" is an opinion. So let's keep it going with as much constructive opinions as possible, maybe someone is reading wanting to know this information - "don't cha know?"
 
The fan spiral is ugly no matter who is doing it. It's that bent skating leg that gives it the impression of dog and hydrant. CalGal is right--there is something far more appealing about having the free leg up and behind without being jerked forward or the body being torqued around.

Any and all dance spins or lifts where the woman is in a backwards jacknife yanking her blade against her head. Looking like you're trying to break your partner's back at the lumbar vertabre is NOT pretty, nor does it create an elegant or even interesting line.

I-spins. There is no way to do that move without looking like you're flashing someone. Y-spirals are a little better because the angle between the body and the free leg make it look softer and more natural, because that can be accomplished by someone who has hips past the prepubescent stage.

Honestly, any 'twenty spins in twenty seconds' move is at best awkward. I profoundly wish for a Zayak Rule for catchfoots and a requirement that at least one spin in a program be a true classical spin--one position maintained throughout. There is very little as beautiful for women as a well-done classical layback (Alyssa and Sasha could both do this marvellously if they didn't have to whip though a half-dozen positions to rack up points) where for men I'm torn between a gorgeous camel or a REALLY fast blur spin.
 
I think it depends on the skater but the catch foot spin on a lot of female skaters looks awful. I hate it when you get tired by just watching them.
 
Mathman said:
Thanks, Skatingcanuck and CDMM. Yeah, the pancake, that's the one. My main objectin is the to the version wih the arms danglig straight down.

This position is fine.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/events/200405/campbellsclassic/photos/weir2-spin.jpg

In fact it's quite interesting. Maybe this is one of the few spins that looks better in a still photo than in motion.
Click to expand...

I have to say that in Johnny's SP he did a variation of this spin with only one hand coming up - the one with Camille on it and i thought that was one of the best parts of the Program cos it really looked like the whole swan and was so reminiscent of Matthew Bourne's Swan Lake - i loved it!

Ant
 
Mathman said:
Kwanford, but you know what? About that fan spiral of Sasha's, once you get past the fire hydrant aspect and actually look at her edge, it's pretty amazing. Spirals are edge moves, after all, and the position of the upper body is just the frosting on the cake.

In this picture, it looks like she is on a back outside edge, but she's got her skating leg twisted around so she is going forward (or is she on a forward edge in this picture, going backward?) I can see where the judges want to reward that.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/olympics/2006/02/23/fig.womens.preview.ap/p1.sasha.cohen.si.jpg

MM
Click to expand...

She's on a RBO edge in that picture and the flexibility demonstrated there is phenomenal. What its difficult to see in that picture is the depth of edge. I think the main problem with Sasha's spirals is (and i say this acknowledging that she got much much better at the edging aspect in the Olympic cycle) that she always sacrifices depth of edge for extension/amplitude in the spiral. Which is her choice to make, i'm sure if she wasn't in such an extreme position she'd be able to get greater lean and depth to the edge but she opted for the more beuaitful upper body position, which is fair enough.

Ant
 
I hate with a passion:

- fan spiral: however well done it's plainly UGLY
- ice dance lifts with man in "spread eagle with bent knees"/second position grand plie (don't know the exact term)
- butt spin
- pairs spin with girl in "Charlotte"
- 3/2/2 combos
- "shoot-the-duck entrance" into death spiral
- Y- and I-spins and spirals with bent back (it's gorgeous when the back is straight or arch)
 
antmanb said:
She's on a RBO edge in that picture and the flexibility demonstrated there is phenomenal. What its difficult to see in that picture is the depth of edge. I think the main problem with Sasha's spirals is (and i say this acknowledging that she got much much better at the edging aspect in the Olympic cycle) that she always sacrifices depth of edge for extension/amplitude in the spiral. Which is her choice to make, i'm sure if she wasn't in such an extreme position she'd be able to get greater lean and depth to the edge but she opted for the more beuaitful upper body position, which is fair enough.

Ant
Click to expand...

Look where her knee is and then look where her butt is-I think that at least says it takes a lot of control to do that move. Sasha's Olympic short program edges were the strongest and most secure that I've seen from her. Of course she was steady and confident. That always makes everything better.I actually love when Sasha does her Y-spiral to fan. I never think it's ugly.
 
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Cal Girl said:
I hate the Biellman position that Sasha does with her crotch out there for the world to see - or any skater for that matter.
Click to expand...

For what non-dedicated viewers (those that watch the olympics and not much else) think of this position I'm reminded of a comment on a political blog that described the position as "Don't point that thing at me!". (I'm temptd to add 'unless you mean business but good taste precludes....)

A thousand pardons if that's considered too crude for this board, but fans need to consider what the occasional viewer may think of some of what's going on now under COP.
 
Curse those Swiss for letting her "point that....blaa blaa blaa..

Was Denise Biellmann wrong to bring it on? Well one thing is for sure, from the early 70s on, she just made it look more beautiful. - check out her site - http://members.shaw.ca/ingridg/biellmann.html

Agreed - again, Too many do a pathetic job of it and shouldn't even be trying.

The important thing here is to "comment on the shape or form" not what section of the human anatomy is showing that you are offended by.

Not saying anyone is wrong about what they think is appropreate, but getting "hung up" on it - Look into Sigmund Freud.

Some people love and some hate the exact same thing - but if it is done like Denise did, it really doesn't resemble anything but impressively beautiful athletic position.

I guess there will be the people walking down a beach that will be giggling the whole time or have their mouth covered in "disgusted shock." But people still "freak" at ankles in middle eastern countries as well - or worse a face is showing!

Let the "for dudes that look at chicks as parts and not people" sites be, they're just a bunch of sexually repressed morons. I really don't think their opinion matters that much anyway, same with the "holly rollers" I don't think anyone would be noticing if there mind wasn't in that train of thought anyway - one foot in the gutter to begin with.

I started out liking figure skating for the adolescent boy reasons, now I appreciate it as a sport. I watch my friends go "woh!!" and then they start to "wow!!!" Give the athletics a chance and soon they will be recognized.

Let's give the Skating community some constructive input rather then just berate them on our moralistic views.

So you don't like the Beillmann, al-righty-then, what's another?
 
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I don't mind the beillmann when it is done well. I hate when skaters arch their backs to create the look that the leg is well above the head. It's more impressive, to me anyway, when the skater's body is straight, kinda forming a champagne class shape with the leg. But the fan spiral is most abused as many do not get their leg far enough up and therefore creates an ugly line. Sasha, Alissa, Shiz are about the only ones I can think of that aren't awful. If Michelle could hold the position longer, I think hers wouldn't be bad either. I also don't like when lady skaters do butt-spins.
 
Seanibu - it appears to be only you who feels the need to write huge long posts about the human anatomy on the basis that you "hope" people don't engage in this type of activity...you might try to talk a bit more about the skating or positions (like you are telling others to) rather than keep writing long posts about body parts.

Just a suggestion.

Ant
 
Linny said:
This one http://www.ice-dance.com/navka/photos/euros06/IMG_4073N&K.jpg doesn't look good from any angle. Eliminating the idea that views of specific body parts are less than desirable and just looking at the position from the idea of a living sculpture... and it still isn't pretty.
Click to expand...
I think the real reason that those spread eagle positions look so stupid is that you have to turn your feet out to the side. Since the ankle joint is capable of only a few degrees of "yaw" without the cooperation of the rest of the leg, the only way to accomplish this is to bow your knees out.

http://www.funkyfrogs.de/grafik/frog.gif

MM
 
Not My Words !!!!!!!!

"I hate the Biellman position that Sasha does with her crotch out there for the world to see - or any skater for that matter

you know how much i love it when you inject logic into my irrational rants, but ya know that butt in the air spin is just unladylike

There is no way to do that move without looking like you're flashing someone.

I'm reminded of a comment on a political blog that described the position as "Don't point that thing at me!"."

- Also that is not all that I am commenting on in any length of post, starting to loose faith in the open mind with some.
 
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Mathman said:
I think the real reason that those spread eagle positions look so stupid is that you have to turn your feet out to the side. Since the ankle joint is capable of only a few degrees of "yaw" without the cooperation of the rest of the leg, the only way to accomplish this is to bow your knees out.

http://www.funkyfrogs.de/grafik/frog.gif

MM
Click to expand...

What I find funny about this position is that it is the final position of the failed LP of the Dusanay's (sp?) from 1991 that they did at European's when they competed against Navka's husband. They even fell out of it! Both partners were in pants, which makes it a little better. I would have thought that Zhulin would have learned from their mistakes!
 
Linny said:
Ugliest one I can think of off-hand is near the end of Nav/Kos Carmen free dance where they each lean back into each other in a bent knee spread eagle. Blech.
Linny
Click to expand...


You would have hated B&B's free skate ice dance program at the 88 Olympics in Calgary - now that was filled with ugly positions just as you described and they won the gold medal - under the old 6.0 system. Go figure.

Ugliest ice dance program I have ever seen!!
 
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