US figure skating is a big joke

[chrissy51]

jenaj
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 137 Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissy51
I was also surprised that Flatt won, but after looking at the reason behind it I now realize that she indeed won fairly. It puts me in the mind of Tara and Michelle at the Olympics. Michelle skated beautifully but Tara had harder content and skated with a lot of speed and joy
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I think that if Tara and Michelle had been judged by COP standards, Michelle would have won easily. Tara flutzed and may have underrotated one of her 3-3s. Her spirals were very weak. Her PCS would have been well behind Michelle's.
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Had they been using COP standards, Tara would still have won because they judge speed and Michelle skated very slow and with too much caution.

 

[Layfan]

jenaj
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Had they been using COP standards, Tara would still have won because they judge speed and Michelle skated very slow and with too much caution.

I agree. Normally Michelle wiped the floor with Tara on artistic marks but not this time. The reason was twofold: 1. Tara pulled out all the stops and upped her artistry considerably. 2. Michelle held back and in this competition her artistry was not enough to give her the edge. There is a difference between the way Michelle skated at nationals that year and the way she skated at the Olympics.

 

[silverlake22]

WHAT THE HELL? Say what you want about about your favorite skater but stop with the specious theories for everyone else, eh?
That's really hurtful and IMO Mirai does not look like she has anorexia.

Totally agree. I just read an article, it said Mirai's 5'4" and 110 pounds which is a very healthy height and weight for a 16 year old japanese girl who is likely to fill out more. She weighs 7 pounds more than Mao and Yuna, who are about an inch taller, and even they are healthy looking. If she was anorexic, she wouldn't have grown from 4'11" to 5'4" in a year like she did. Sasha's really skinny but she is most likely fine too. I don't think an anorexic lady would be able to skate like either of them do.

This is why I get annoyed, people always say that skaters like Rachael and Emily are "heavy" and need to lose weight, and then they go say that thinner skaters like Yuna and Sasha and now Mirai are "anorexic". Are there any skaters who you do think are at a healthy weight? All these girls are beautiful and fit and shouldn't feel any need to lose/gain weight unless it's needed to fix jumps or whatnot.

 

[Tigger]

I miss seeing original programs. I miss creativity. I miss seeing what skaters put together with choeographers. It just seems like, we are seeing almost the same programs with diffrent themes, and that technical merit rules over artistry. Yes a skater should be able to perform the difficult jumps and spins but that's not what skating is all about.

And *this* is what I despise about COP!! Yes, there are programs out there that manage to be creative, but those are very far and few between.

I remember the reaction Denis Ten's SP got at Skate Canada. We were all amazed that a skater actually managed to put a program out there that wasn't only creative, but had footwork that actually went w/the music!! Imagine that!!

Sorry for the sarcasm guys, but I'm so tired of seeing this beautiful and difficult edgy flowy footwork, being paired w/fast powerful music or something like Riverdance. I mean...If it doesn't match the music, then what's the point!?!

Personally, I didn't think Mirai had any underrotations last night and I watched it twice. Once on Detroit NBC and again on Seattle NBC. Sure, Rachel's base mark was higher than Mirai's, but considering the 3/3 wasn't done w/the quality she usually does it w/ and her spins, footwork and inbetweens aren't really the same as Mirai's and...

Even w/the UR's, and w/no slo mo's showing them to us I'm skeptical about that, Rachel shouldn't have won w/the margin she did.

I still think Mirai should be introduced as the Two Time United States Champion today and it's a shame that's not happening.

 

[silverlake22]

She won by 12 points. Mirai underrotated 3 of her jumps. That was the difference. Even if Mirai had been scored higher on PCS, it wouldn't have been enough.

3lutz - 6 points + 3t - 4 points + 3t - 4 points = 14 points

Mirai would have won by at least 2 points and probably more like 5 when GOE is accounted for if all her jumps were clean and that's with one less triple and less jumps in the second half meaning if the jumps hadn't been dinged meaning if they had the same jump setup she would have won by about 7 or 8 points which is substantial and I think accurate.

 

[silverlake22]

Oh wait nevermind I don't know the values of doubles....

 

[Kindertotenlieder]

It seems that the most inconsistent people are the ones here on this forum who, for months and months and months and months going back to the Kimmie Meissner era, complained that this skater or that skater was overscored because she underrotated her jumps or flutzed this jump or that jump and weren't downgraded for this or that "cheat" or her jumps and so on and so forth, and this went on and on and it was always the skater this or that poster didn't like to begin with that should have been penalized for this or that.!!
And now some of you same people are wailing and whining about YOUR preferred skater being downgraded for underrotating or flutzing or poor edges and this or that because the judges are paying more attention to detail and they still can't do anything right in your eyes!!

You can't have it both ways, people. Grow up.

Oh what a difference a year makes. Remember 09 Nationals when Alyssa was raked over the coals because Rachel "wuzrobbed" and had earned her title due to her superior long program? I wonder if the same people dumping on Flatt now were infuriated by her silver medal last year . . .

 

[MK's Winter]

Maybe. It's an interesting point to consider. By the standards of 6.0. Tara's spirals were fine. They were at least pleasant to look at. I think Tara would have worked on her spirals to meet the standards of CoP and I think she would have achieved it. The better question for me is why Rachael gets level 3s or sometimes even level 4s for her spirals. I don't get it.

I am plauged by the same question. I think the same for her spins as well. They are just not nice to look at. I'm wondering what her levels were on spins.

 

[Mathman]

I don't think levels are about looking pretty. I think you get levels by how many changes of edge you do, how many different positions, etc.

Rachael spiral was level four, two of her spins were level 4 and one level 3.

 

[reynycpr]

Oh wait nevermind I don't know the values of doubles....

Heres a quick jump reference (hope I got it right):

Base Jump Value:
4T = 9.8
3A = 8.2
3Lz = 6.0
3F = 5.5
3L = 5.0
3S = 4.5
3T = 4.0
2A = 3.5
2Lz = 1.9
2F = 1.7
2L = 1.5
2S = 1.3
2T = 1.3

Base Jump Value (Bonus Section):
3A = 9.02
3Lz = 6.6
3F = 6.05
3L = 5.5
3S = 4.95
3T = 4.4
2A = 3.85
2Lz = 2.09
2F = 1.87
2L = 1.65
2S = 1.43
2T = 1.43

Feel free to help me out if I got any of these wrong

 

[MK's Winter]

Rachael spiral was level four, two of her spins were level 4 and one level 3.

I don't understand how Rachel can get level 4's on her spins...

 

[gfskater]

Rachael spiral was level four, two of her spins were level 4 and one level 3.

I don't understand how Rachel can get level 4's on her spins...

IJS rules for spirals

Spirals on each foot, forward & backward, inside & outside mandatory for Levels 3-4
Number of features for Levels : 2 for Level 2, 3 for Level 3, 4 for Level 4

1.A difficult variation of position
2.A difficult variation of position on a different foot significantly different from the first variation
3.Change of edge in a spiral
4.Unsupported change of free leg position or direction of skating maintaining the spiral (3 seconds hold before and after the change)
5.Free leg in a total split position, one or both arms hold possible
6.Holding spiral position (without any interruption) for 6 or more seconds without changes in position/variation

http://gofigureskating.com/skills/spirals/compete.html

Rachael spiral was level four, two of her spins were level 4 and one level 3.

I don't understand how Rachel can get level 4's on her spins...

IJS Rules for spins

http://gofigureskating.com/skills/spins/compete.html

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Exactly. Levels are about difficulty and complexity, not quality.

 

[gfskater]

Exactly. Levels are about difficulty and complexity, not quality.

And GOE is about quality.

 

[MK's Winter]

Exactly. Levels are about difficulty and complexity, not quality.

That's the problem, it should be about all the above. :banging::scowl:

 

[gfskater]

That's the problem, it should be about all the above. :banging::scowl:

Actually the combination of Levels and GOE are intended to cover it all.

Levels are based on difficulty and complexity
GOE is about quality.

If you look at the scale of values, a
Level 3 spiral with with +1 GOE (3.1+0.5 = 3.6)
is worth more than a
Level 4 spiral with a -1 GOE (3.4-0.7=2.7)

in fact, a level 2 with a +3 GOE beats a level 4 with a -1 GOE

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Precisely. Now, someone (gkelly?) suggested that it should be more benefical to raise the quality by one GOE as opposed to one level (so level 3 + 1 GOE point > level four with 0 GOE), and I'd be interested in seeing how that helps/hurts.

 

[MK's Winter]

Actually the combination of Levels and GOE are intended to cover it all.

Levels are based on difficulty and complexity
GOE is about quality.

If you look at the scale of values, a
Level 3 spiral with with +1 GOE (3.1+0.5 = 3.6)
is worth more than a
Level 4 spiral with a -1 GOE (3.4-0.7=2.7)

in fact, a level 2 with a +3 GOE beats a level 4 with a -1 GOE

COP makes me crazy, I feel l should brush up on Math before I try to understand anyones marks.

 

[Tonichelle]

COP makes me crazy, I feel l should brush up on Math before I try to understand anyones marks.

you know, it's funny, I absolutely HATE math, but I LOVE the CoP... it makes sense to me! go figure

 

[gfskater]

COP makes me crazy, I feel l should brush up on Math before I try to understand anyones marks.

I had to learn CoP so I could be sure my daughter's intermediate program was planned right. Imagine working with non elite coaches and expecting them to know the system. There are so many moving parts. Some coaches think only about levels and not the quality and we can see by the examples above, in these rules GOE is very important.

Better to do the jump, spin... that you are really good at then to try a higher level that you are just OK at.