US Selections for Junior Worlds

[oleada]

Aren't junior programs shorter than senior ones? And have jump restrictions?

The short program has the same number of elements. I don't think you can do a quad, but you can do a 3A. The solo jump has to be a 3Lo. As for the long programs, it has the extra choreographic step sequence with a value of 2.00, which wouldn't mean much in terms of the difference in scores.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

So being generous, the juniors operate with about five points less than the seniors (assuming that the seniors do both the lutz and the flip and the choreostep).

 

[oleada]

So being generous, the juniors operate with about five points less than the seniors (assuming that the seniors do both the lutz and the flip and the choreostep).

Well...yes, but only in TES. Some would argue that the PCS is held down for juniors. Brown and Zahradinacek were attempting the same amount of triples, but Alex Z doubled his second 3Lz. But Brown's spins and steps received higher levels and his elements received higher GOE.

But in any case, Brown's score was over 25 points higher, and having watched both, personally, I don't think there's any comparison between skating quality or presentation.

 

[ivy]

I remember looking at the protocol sheets for the LP about a week ago. After removing the extra step seq. Keegan had the highest TES, Max the 2nd highest and Jason Brown the third, all three were pretty close and about 20 points Alex Z. IIRC. Did not check out the SP

Anyone know if another age eligible male skater that skated in Srs. got a total score above Max's 188 (or an Sr. adjusted 192)? If so, should that should that skater be on the team? I believe Dornbush (Miner too?) is still eligible for ISU Jrs. - was he asked if wanted to skate in JW? He could do both conceivably - though I doubt he'd want to

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think the consensus of the Board is to OK what the USFS says. No one will say that the selection should be the same as the Seniors.

I would draw from that, that there is no Junior Team based on the results of the Nats if there are junior skaters who skate in seniors. Amen, and all praise the system.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

We're not blindly supporting the system. We're recognizing the complexities that exist and agreeing that the system does its best to make it work.

 

[Sylvia]

We're not blindly supporting the system. We're recognizing the complexities that exist and agreeing that the system does its best to make it work.

Hear hear!

In recent years USFS has usually selected their Junior national champion men for Junior Worlds more often than the Junior national champion ladies -- I think one reason may be because ladies tend to move up to Senior in the US faster/earlier than the men do.

USFS used to held a Junior Worlds selection competition in September to which certain age-eligible skaters would be invited. Russia and Japan currently hold separate Junior Worlds selection competitions (Junior Nationals in early February and late November, respectively) -- should the US do the same again? What are the pros and cons of this?

 

[Mathman]

*Never mind*

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Hear hear!

In recent years USFS has usually selected their Junior national champion men for Junior Worlds more often than the Junior national champion ladies -- I think one reason may be because ladies tend to move up to Senior in the US faster/earlier than the men do.

USFS used to held a Junior Worlds selection competition in September to which certain age-eligible skaters would be invited. Russia and Japan currently hold separate Junior Worlds selection competitions (Junior Nationals in early February and late November, respectively) -- should the US do the same again? What are the pros and cons of this?

I'm not all familiar with the background of how the system was worked out. The flaw I see is that some age-elligible juniors are permitted to skate in the senior division. Those skaters have an incredible experience skating with the elite. The only reason they can switch back to juniors is because of their age, and they can do the same thing next year if still within the age limitation, and maybe a third year. (thinking of Chen, but then he may win seniors.)

To me, and only to me, there is no real junior level at present. It is part of a non-placing senior comp who is still eligible for juniors. To me, if a junior skater is eligible to compete at the senior level and does so, he is no longer a junior. It's his option. Why not?

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

1. Right now, the reason the ISU uses age restrictions is to limit the amount of stress/expectations placed on children. This, in my mind, is absolutely, 100% correct. I, personally, have an issue with the amount of hype/pressure surrounding the junior performers in general and think internationally, this makes sense.

2. Further to that, I think that national federations should implement age restrictions as well. But they won’t, so this is the next best thing - using testing, etc to see if you qualify as a senior.

3. Because there are two different systems in place: internationally with age, and nationally with testing (in most nations), I don’t think using two different systems is inherently illogical or unfair. In fact, I’d argue the opposite.

4. Let’s take an extreme example. Adelina Sotnikova has won two Russian (senior) championships and was 4th the other time. She is not age eligible for seniors and will not be until the 2012/2013 season. So should she be allowed to go to junior worlds?

 

[ivy]

1. Right now, the reason the ISU uses age restrictions is to limit the amount of stress/expectations placed on children. This, in my mind, is absolutely, 100% correct. I, personally, have an issue with the amount of hype/pressure surrounding the junior performers in general and think internationally, this makes sense.

2. Further to that, I think that national federations should implement age restrictions as well. But they won’t, so this is the next best thing - using testing, etc to see if you qualify as a senior.

3. Because there are two different systems in place: internationally with age, and nationally with testing (in most nations), I don’t think using two different systems is inherently illogical or unfair. In fact, I’d argue the opposite.

4. Let’s take an extreme example. Adelina Sotnikova has won two Russian (senior) championships and was 4th the other time. She is not age eligible for seniors and will not be until the 2012/2013 season. So should she be allowed to go to junior worlds?

I agree with this, and I really support the idea of keeping the youngsters out of Srs at the international level to help them develop emotionally, as well as physically, before they face the rigors of Sr competition.

I have no problem with Adelina competing at Russian Srs and JW. If she wins JW though will she then be eligible for Senior Grand Prix? and Senior Worlds? I would have a little hesitation if she moves up to Senior Grand Prix, but then back down to Juniors for Worlds, but I'd probably get over it...

 

[Lucky Star]

I have no problem with Adelina competing at Russian Srs and JW. If she wins JW though will she then be eligible for Senior Grand Prix? and Senior Worlds? I would have a little hesitation if she moves up to Senior Grand Prix, but then back down to Juniors for Worlds, but I'd probably get over it...

Next season Adelina (and Liza) will be eligible for senior Grand Prix, but not for Euros and senior Worlds. I guess she will move to senior Grand Prix but then will have to go back to JW simply because she will not have another choice. The same was with Mao Asada in 2005-2006 season. She competed at the Grand Prix and won the final, but was too young to go to the Olympics and senior Worlds, so she went to JW

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Next season Adelina (and Liza) will be eligible for senior Grand Prix, but not for Euros and senior Worlds. I guess she will move to senior Grand Prix but then will have to go back to JW simply because she will not have another choice. The same was with Mao Asada in 2005-2006 season. She competed at the Grand Prix and won the final, but was too young to go to the Olympics and senior Worlds, so she went to JW

Good grief! There is yet another method of eligibility for Grand Prix. Who stays up all night thinking these eligibilities are jusified? Just wondering is Sotnikova ever skated in Junior Nationals. If she did, she then returns to Junior Worlds after her jaunt with Seniors as an experienced Senior. Is tha the way it works?

I reiterate, the Junior Worlds is an adjunct of the Senior Worlds, and also the Senior GPs. A certified junior skater doesn't have a chance.

 

[Chemistry66]

Good grief! There is yet another method of eligibility for Grand Prix. Who stays up all night thinking these eligibilities are jusified? Just wondering is Sotnikova ever skated in Junior Nationals. If she did, she then returns to Junior Worlds after her jaunt with Seniors as an experienced Senior. Is tha the way it works?

I reiterate, the Junior Worlds is an adjunct of the Senior Worlds, and also the Senior GPs. A certified junior skater doesn't have a chance.

Adelina usually does skate in Junior Nationals as well (as does Elizaveta, Polina S [this year, at least], Polina A, Roza, Julia Lipnitskaya [who withdrew from JN] and multiple others.). She withdrew ahead of time this year - some people said it was that she was sick but I don't know exactly if that was correct.

Japan also has it similarly sort of, with the top Junior skaters invited to compete in Senior Nationals as well. The Russian system is just a little bit opposite, with the Junior Nationals held a bit after the Senior competition, mainly as a Junior Worlds selection competition.

The US can't do this because they have the entire Novice-Junior-Senior competition in a bit more than a week. If they split it up like Russia or Japan, then maybe skaters like Jason and Keegan would be able to compete in both competitions.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^^
I salute the Russian system for having Junior skaters compete in their Junior Nationals.

And I predict that the highest placement of a US skater at Junior Worlds will be one who also competed at US Senior Nats.

Sorry. Just can't imagine an athlete switching from one level to another. Have no problem, if eligibilty exists to opt for one and only one.

 

[Sylvia]

Quite a few Russian and Japanese singles skaters compete in BOTH their Junior and Senior Nationals. They can do that because they're held a month or more apart, unlike US Nationals which combines Novice/Junior/Senior, as Chemistry66 pointed out above.

 

[mskater93]

^^^^
I salute the Russian system for having Junior skaters compete in their Junior Nationals.

And I predict that the highest placement of a US skater at Junior Worlds will be one who also competed at US Senior Nats.

Sorry. Just can't imagine an athlete switching from one level to another. Have no problem, if eligibilty exists to opt for one and only one.

The Russian and Japanese system allow them to compete at both the Junior and Senior level at Nationals due to the proximity of Russian Nationals. The highest ranking Russian lady at JWs will also have competed at Senior Nationals as well, since everyone here is picking Sotnikova to win, and she's won Senior Nationals at Russia 2 out of the last 3 years. The highest ranking Japanese man will also have competed at Senior Nationals as everyone expects Hanyu to win JWs and he was 4th at Senior Nationals in Japan.

As I said, if you can get all the federations to agree on a standard test for Junior and Senior, then you can preclude those who have passed the International Senior test from skating at Junior Worlds, but you can't get two feds to agree that blue is blue a lot of time, so that's not going to happen.

 

[Sylvia]

The highest ranking Japanese man will also have competed at Senior Nationals as everyone expects Hanyu to win JWs and he was 4th at Senior Nationals in Japan.

Hanyu will not be defending his 2010 Junior World title -- his season will end at Four Continents.
ETA: The 3 JPN men's entries for 2011 Junior Worlds are Kento NAKAMURA, Keiji TANAKA and Ryuichi KIHARA and they finished 8th, 11th and 12th, respectively, at JPN's Senior Nationals in December.

As I said, if you can get all the federations to agree on a standard test for Junior and Senior, then you can preclude those who have passed the International Senior test from skating at Junior Worlds, but you can't get two feds to agree that blue is blue a lot of time, so that's not going to happen.

Right. ALL countries (not just the USA) and athletes are just following the ISU age rules as they are currently written. The ISU doesn't care whether or not fans think their rules are wrong or unfair. If fans truly care enough to try and lobby for age rules to be changed (or not changed), they should try and DO something about it rather than just complain on a message board.

 

[mskater93]

Thanks for the correction, Sylvia, I made a bad assumption there!

The skaters are also following the rules of their federation in whether they skate at their country's Senior Nationals or as a Junior or whichever. The federations in turn decide who will skate at Senior and Junior Worlds based on the rule structure they have to work within from the ISU.

 

[Binthere]

There is also the strategy of trying to maximize an athlete's ISU rankings. Teams that may compete senior at nationals would be well served by competing at an event like junior worlds and hopefully doing well to set themselves up for a future season competing internationally at the senior level.