US Team: 4CCs and Worlds (updated)

[Jaana]

USA seems to have lots of talent for the Olympics next year in men... Those young guys who already now have triple axel plus one or more quads will surely improve in other areas since the jumps are there. If USA manages to get three places for men at the Olympics, hopefully those talented young guys have become the total packages and will be there.

 

[Rissa]

Nope :dev2:.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you are wrong to presume that everyone else shares it.

Seconded. Definitely not everyone shares that opinion. I'm not a Max fan and I heartliy criticized him for his last season's programs but that program is right my alley and I enjoy it immensly. Here's the killer: in my opinion, when Max gets into it, it's better than Jason Brown's "exquisite" FS (which makes my brain switch off and stop paying attention after 30 secs). Since I'm going to be there sitting on the audience at Worlds, I'm quite disappointed that the Lion King won't be there.

 

[shmay]

Is it really smart for Nathan to do 4CCs? A pre-Worlds or mid-Worlds injury at this point would be catastrophic for USFSA

 

[Rissa]

Is it really smart for Nathan to do 4CCs? A pre-Worlds or mid-Worlds injury at this point would be catastrophic for USFSA

That can be said about any skater attending both 4CCs and Worlds. Nathan seems in good form and as long as he doesn't treat 4CCs too seriously - meaning some sort of "must win against Hanyu/Jin/Chan/Uno" attitude and therefore overtraining, he should be ok. It's wise to attend the event held at the next Olympic venue, test how you'll do in a February competition, check out what form others are in before Worldsbecause apparently everybody else is going. More pros than cons.

 

[skylark]

Thank goodness Mirai made the 4CCs team! And 1st alternate for Worlds! I am SO glad USFS went with the podium and not reputation this time. I was rather worried there for a moment that they wouldn't. Love Gracie but she is NOT ready for Worlds by a long shot.

USFS didn't go by reputation last time either. They went by international results. Ashley won gold at TEB 2013-14, silver at SA, and bronze at the GPF. She placed 5th at 2013 Worlds. While Mirai placed 3rd at Rostelecom 2013-14, 8th at NHK, and did not qualify for 2013 Worlds.

Mirai is on the 4cc team because of Ashley's decision not to accept her assignment there. I'm very happy for both of them. Ashley made the best decision for her. And Mirai usually does well at 4CC. And I agree that it was very classy of Ashley to make her decision known right away.

 

[concorde]

There's the fantasy category that I'm in, which says that USFSA should have gone full out Soviet in this instance, and transferred Jason away from Team Kori following the 2014/5 season to a jumping wizard coach, and sent Rohene with him.

They did sort of! Why else do you think he spent a couple of weeks with Frank Carrol this past summer.

I have lost faith that he will ever get 1 solid quad. I think to be a top man internationally that is required so that is why I think sending him to Worlds was a bad decision.

Added to that, he has a stress facture which needs time to heal. Getting ready for 2 big competirions will not give him that recovery time and could potentially made the injury worse. That stress facture is in his landing leg ao all landings have to be painful. I also assume that some of those toe jumps (lutz) are equally as painful.

 

[concorde]

Hasn't Bradie Tennell already had enough chances at Junior Worlds?

Seriously. When was the last time an 18 year old won Junior Worlds. :noshake:

Someone commented earlier Joshua and Jason had gone 1-2 at Junior Worlds - I think I got that right. I get that point but comparing skating ages of men and women is like comparing apples to watermelons.

The original comment was referring to the ladies ages at Junior Worlds, not the mens ages. For the ladies, the top Juniors are 14 and 15 year olds. The top Senior ladies are 15 and 16 - some 14 year olds are probably just as good but are too young to qualify.

 

[Mrs. P]

They did sort of! Why else do you think he spent a couple of weeks with Frank Carrol this past summer.

I have lost faith that he will ever get 1 solid quad. I think to be a top man internationally that is required so that is why I think sending him to Worlds was a bad decision.

Added to that, he has a stress facture which needs time to heal. Getting ready for 2 big competirions will not give him that recovery time and could potentially made the injury worse. That stress facture is in his landing leg ao all landings have to be painful. I also assume that some of those toe jumps (lutz) are equally as painful.

He was out of the ice for pretty much of December. The stress fracture likely reared in late November. It's not like he was diagnosed with the fracture last week and went to Nationals.

Also, looking at the practices, he was very conservative with jump attempts, especially the 3A. As I said, he seemed closer to healing than not.

Vincent Zhou had to w/d from Golden Spin about six weeks before Nationals cause of a hip injury...and look how he did.

Also, he has been pretty upfront about it and clearly takes the job of getting spots very seriously , so I'm sure if he's not in the shape he's promised to be, he'll step back.

 

[andromache]

I think the most avid of Jason fans can agree that his World medal hopes look less and less likely with every passing year, in large part due to the quick technical progression of the sport. After 2015 where Jason came 4th at Worlds, things looked great. Yuzu and Javi had two types of quads that they were (and still are) prone to messing up on, only 2 quads per LP, and 1 quad in the SP. Denis Ten won the 2015 Worlds LP with only one type of quad and mistakes on it. Also Jason would've needed to get to that World-medal level was a semi-sold 4S or 4T.

The situation has obviously changed. It doesn't make Jason any less special or talented of a skater for doing what he is capable of. Here's hoping he helps us get three spots back - then maybe next year, all three medalists can go to the Olympics.

 

[Mrs. P]

I think the most avid of Jason fans can agree that his World medal hopes look less and less likely with every passing year, in large part due to the quick technical progression of the sport. After 2015 where Jason came 4th at Worlds, things looked great. Yuzu and Javi had two types of quads that they were (and still are) prone to messing up on, only 2 quads per LP, and 1 quad in the SP. Denis Ten won the 2015 Worlds LP with only one type of quad and mistakes on it. Also Jason would've needed to get to that World-medal level was a semi-sold 4S or 4T.

The situation has obviously changed. It doesn't make Jason any less special or talented of a skater for doing what he is capable of. Here's hoping he helps us get three spots back - then maybe next year, all three medalists can go to the Olympics.

I agree to a point -- that he has brought and brings a lot of the sport regardless of whether or not he has a World medal. That said, he is still a driven and ambitious skater. He may be a pretty happy person but there's some competitive drive underneath.

I think his response in the mixed zone during Nationals to Vincent and Nathan's excellent skates after the SP was pretty telling. He praised them profusely and then said that he's glad they're doing the quads because he's a fan a successful U.S. men's figure skating program and he believes their work is essencial in that happening. At the same time, he also said that he wants to be counted among the top U.S. men's figure skaters.

Perhaps -- and maybe likely -- the technical standard is too high given Jason's current and future ability, but he -- as any good, ambitious athlete should react-- isn't going to set limits on himself because of that.

I joke (sort of) that it's a shame that we don't have a skater with Gracie's technical ability and Jason's competitive mettle. It was a real fascinating case study this weekend to see a skater with so much natural jumping ability crash and burn while a different skater, who doesn't have that same natural technical talent, persevere through probably a very uncomfortable situation.

ETA: Also the analogy above is especially interesting considering how one reacted to setbacks. Gracie gets 4th at Worlds, her highest placement yet, and goes into a downward spiral over it (though there might be more in play then we don't know). Meanwhile, Jason doesn't even get to go to Nationals or Worlds cause of his back injury, loses a GPF spot because of a poor performance at NHK Trophy (likely caused by the stress fracture popping up) and then competes in Nationals with just one week of jumping. And he decides to rise to the occasion instead. The growth mindset that Jason has is why he's stuck around so long in spite of his jump challenges.

 

[narcissa]

Bradie went once before, last year. From a usfsa viewpoint, the issue isn't likely winning Junior Worlds as much as it is getting as much international experience (and ranking points) as possible for younger seniors such as Bradie who might be in position for Worlds/Olympics next year.

Ah, sorry, Tyler is the one who went twice. But still. I think the odds of Bradie medalling at the Olympics are basically zero. I think USFSA would do better to invest in a younger girl, like Starr or Alexia or someone who could really do with more international experience and has actually been skating junior programs all season...

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Is it really smart for Nathan to do 4CCs? A pre-Worlds or mid-Worlds injury at this point would be catastrophic for USFSA

Since 4CC is held in the Olympic venue, and Nathan is the most likely US singles skater to be on the Olympic team, it makes sense that he would want to attend.

 

[Mrs. P]

Since 4CC is held in the Olympic venue, and Nathan is the most likely US singles skater to be on the Olympic team, it makes sense that he would want to attend.

And really injuries can happen at any time. Just look at all the off-ice injuries we've seen this season. Nathan, I'm sure, has learned the necessary lessons from last year to prevent any freak injuries the best he can.

ETA: Phil Hersh's take (FWIW) on the World selection: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/01/24/214245730

U.S. Figure Skating's international committee got it right on all the world team selections.
The committee had no choice but to bypass two-time U.S. champion Gracie Gold, notwithstanding her having ticked off higher marks in as many or more boxes on the selection criteria list than either new U.S. champion Karen Chen or bronze medalist Mariah Bell. Gold, who finished sixth at the U.S. championships, showed no signs all season of being able to perform remotely near her past excellence.
Would Mirai Nagasu, 10th at worlds last year, have been a better pick than Bell? Not based on Nagasu's uninspired free skate in Kansas City, with several under rotations and negative Grades of Execution after a strong second in the short program. She had a world team place in her hands and let it slip away.
In men's singles, the choice of U.S. bronze medalist Jason Brown, a veteran with Olympic and world meet experience, over silver medalist Vincent Zhou was also justified if the goal is to get three Olympic spots for 2018. Zhou, 16, has yet to skate in a senior international event; as of now, he does not even have the technical minimums for worlds.
Granting the world team petition of Alexa Scimeca Knierim and Chris Knierim in pairs was also logical. Although they have been out of action all season because of Alexa's surgery, the Knierims are by far the most talented U.S. pair, and their record over the time period used in the selection criteria is far superior to that of any pair who competed in Kansas City.
The dance selection was easy. The three teams with the most noteworthy achievements, past and present, finished 1-2-3.

He also thinks the men have a better shot at 3 spots than the ladies.

 

[LRK]

And really injuries can happen at any time. Just look at all the off-ice injuries we've seen this season. Nathan, I'm sure, has learned the necessary lessons from last year to prevent any freak injuries the best he can.

ETA: Phil Hersh's take (FWIW) on the World selection: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/01/24/214245730


He also thinks the men have a better shot at 3 spots than the ladies.

That's actually my gut feeling too.

 

[andromache]

He also thinks the men have a better shot at 3 spots than the ladies.

If Phil Hersh is vouching for a guy without a quad, you know it's legit.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

That's actually my gut feeling too.

Me too but I still look forward to Mariah Bell the mostest :

 

[Tavi...]

If Phil Hersh is vouching for a guy without a quad, you know it's legit.

I found it amusing to hear him call Jason a veteran, even though it's true.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

ETA: Phil Hersh's take (FWIW) on the World selection: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/01/24/214245730

While I agree with Phil's logic and think the USFSA made the right decisions, it is stupid for them to say "we have this new set of criteria we need to follow" and then not do so. Gracie was understandably upset that she met the criteria better than two other skaters, yet was failed to be selected. Gracie should not be on the world team, but the arbitrariness of the stated selection process gives skaters hope when they should have none. If Gracie "checks off more boxes" than others and is not selected, then the selection criteria needs to be changed, or the USFSA needs to admit there is no real selection criteria and they're going to selected whomever they want.

 

[LRK]

Note: Nirti posted the entries list for Bavarian Open, and Vincent's name isn't on it:

http://goldenskate.com/forum/showth...an-Open-2017&p=1615668&viewfull=1#post1615668

Could he be added later? Or is there some other competition where he'd be able to earn the senior TES?

 

[Skater Boy]

So relieved to see Hawayek and Baker as first alternates for both 4CC and Worlds.

I don't think there was any issue that they would be first alternates. They were clearly the fourth best team.