Use of the word "Package" to describe a skater's on-ice attributes | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Use of the word "Package" to describe a skater's on-ice attributes

Also, if I'm correct in guessing here, I think the issue with the term "package" isn't necessarily what the term means in the context of figure skating, so much as what else the actual word elicits when we're talking about skaters.

I'm sort of thinking as I'm typing so I'm not sure if any of this will make sense, and I may ramble a bit but stay with me here.

Maybe "package" turns people off because it also elicits other feelings about perceptions in this sport of gender roles and expectations of what makes a woman and what makes a man on the ice? And maybe a lot of those feelings are subconsciously felt? This question of packaging arose yet again when we were talking about Gracie. Who seems to be getting what for this conversation I'll call the "The Kwan Treatment". Classical music, emotive gestures, and grand feelings. Something Michelle understood innately and when Frank and Lori were ready to put that on her it just worked. And it might not have. But it worked so extraordinarily well it became Michelle's calling card, along with an iconic inside/outside spiral, and a penchant for oft not used music choices and concepts that required a whole season to truly marinate. It was true opus.

This also happened to be in line with Frank and Lori's own tastes - but as far as American skaters are concerned, I feel this became the new standard. To be sure there were many before Michelle that had these qualities. Peggy, Dorothy, Janet. But we also had the unique experience of watching Michelle become this woman. It was a total transformation unlike anything I think the sport had seen and frankly the closest anyone has done to it since in such a drastic way was Angela Nikodinov in 2001, and that was Michelle's contemporary. I think too often the feeling has been, Frank did it for Michelle so why not with this skater too. Look at Kimmie Meissner. She wanted a more mature look so she played Cleopatra. Sure she became world champion that year, but I doubt anyone felt there was this great transformation.

It did happen slowly over time with Carolina, and to a degree I would argue John Nicks helped Ashley reach her full potential and "packaging" that worked for her, but it wasn't this sort if flip of a switch that felt like happened with Michelle.

For many, this, "The Kwan", is the ideal. What a "well packaged lady" looks like on the ice. The truth is, when you step back from it, Michelle's Salome might have been just as contrived as Gracie's programs often feel, (to me anyway) Lori and Frank just struck gold and found a true artist/athlete who understood everything they were saying. Maybe I'm being unfair to Lori, but I feel I've seen enough of her work to get a sense of she knows what she likes and if it sticks on a skater great and if not... oh well. Luckily her and Michelle clicked. Her and Carolina clicked. I'm not sure her and Evan clicked, but I feel Evan definitely trusted her and possibly willed that relationship to work.

And I think that's the thing. So much of this packaging feels contrived to me. It's why I have such a hard time watching Elena's free this year, and I LOVE her. The program is impressive, and she sells it, but it's not authentically her. But then here lies a problem now. If that's not the right "packaging" for Elena what is? How do we sell her? And what a startling question to ask. It feels misogynistic and a little morally bankrupt. The intention isn't. But that statement kind of is.

Maybe we shouldn't be asking, what she packaged well? Is his presentation strong? Rather, does this feel authentic? Am I seeing their truest self? To be sure a skater can lose them self in a character, but if they connect to it, and the intentions are true - you are getting a glimpse into their sole. That's why Alena's Chaplin is so charming to me. Or while Irina's Tosca and Carmen never quite sang, her Wonderland was this breath of fresh air. Once you got past her dealing a tarot deck (OY!) you got saw this woman skating freely and open heartedly and it made me want to be on the ice with her. And I was a die hard Michelle fan (still am ;)).

And now here's another thing. I think in figure skating, it's very easy to forget that the human experience is an entire spectrum. For the men I think we have an easier time accepting that, and I don't want to hijack this thread to a new topic, but with men there are more skaters who are openly queer, and also figure skating calls for the use of music and costume and has qualities about it inherently that I think our society innately labels as feminine. That does not mean a male skater is emasculated or not able to show his full masculine self by virtue of being a skater (there are many many wonderful programs that show the contrary :thumbsup: ) but I think it does mean as a society we are prepared to view a larger spectrum of styles and energies that we aren't as prepared or challenged to see with the women. Note: it is was during Jason Brown's skate that Sandra made the wonderful quote, that I think should be on USFSA's site "What's exciting about figure skating is it accepts all kinds, there's room for all kinds, there's room for the entertainer and the artist and the athlete." But you don't hear them talk like that about the ladies.

The closest to discussion like that for ladies in my mind was when Johnny used the contrast of styles as a veil for the shade throwing he did at Liza at Skate America this year.

And I think Liza is actually one of the more inspiring women out there when you talk about skating. I'll go out on a limb here, and posit that one of the reasons people have such issues with her look and music this year is because she doesn't fit in the boxes that I think "packaging" implies. She's not wearing a dress. She's not wearing a jump suit. She's not a character in drag. Her programs are fast and powerful, and yet there's something undeniably sexy and feminine about her skating and the programs. They kind of defy the standard categorization and I think, subconsciously or not, that makes some people uncomfortable. For me, she's thrilling to watch this season because I feel like I'm seeing the most authentic version of herself.

I think that's why Johnny left a lot of people uncomfortable in his time, but also created this die hard fan base. Some didn't know how to categorize him, and others recognized the his experience and connected to his true sense of expression. 2006/2010 isn't that long ago but the climate in America and in the world towards gender roles has evolved in subtle and large ways quite a deal since then.

SO

This is all a very long winded but I think my THESIS is - The word "packaging" is problematic because it is both outdated while also saying too much and yet not enough. It has served a purpose to be sure, and has been very helpful over the years in identifying what why this skater might win over the next. However, it represents a time when gender roles were much stricter and the definition of "packaging" in skating was far more finite. And on a deeper level, there's something sort of Corporate Capitalist about it like you're able to just shop for the right packaging. All you need is a Lori Nichol program and a Vera Wang dress with Frank's polish and suddenly you're packaged well. And the truth is, that's just surface, that makes it outdated.

It says too much and not enough by being a de facto term used by people when really they're talking about presence, posture, skating skills. Because it's taken on too many meanings it has sort of lost its meaning, yet it's a term we all know too well and are comfortable working with.

To say is skater is packaged well is like saying a skater is interesting. We might be able to agree or understand why one is saying that, but it doesn't really help the conversation does it? It doesn't get to the specifics of ones own personal thoughts. It allows us to avoid really talking about someone, which oddly enough is what "packaging" has allowed choreographers and coaches to do. They can "package" someone rather than understand them. On a certain level I get it. This skater has spent thousands of dollars investing in you and your ideas for a whole season and gosh darn if you "package" them wrong, if you can't "sell" them to the judges there's going to be emotional and financial let down on a large scale. Once you find a formula, and you are lucrative it's hard to take risks again. Willingly step out of your comfort zone - especially when so often that person you're trying to step beyond with, is only a teenager ! !

But man, I didn't start typing all this thinking I wanted to stop using the term packaging... but now I think I do. Who needs it? Not me.
 
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^lord that was long. I didn't have time to edit fully so I hope it all made sense. Anyone who reads it and responds I'll be very grateful whatever your take away. :)
 
Thank goodness someone else went there too! :laugh:

We could make a thread, but I don't think it would be particularly family-friendly. ;)

Let's please make that thread. I feel like Maxim Trankov very nearly inspired a thread for that last year. If his yellow pants earned a twitter I feel it's the least we can do... :rofl:
 
I attempted to let the discussion flow for a bit without interjecting too much of my opinion into it, but here's the thing:

I mentioned that I didn't like the term "package" or "total package" earlier. Yet, while writing the OP I found I couldn't quite articulate WHY I hate its use so much - I just did...it was one of "those things", etc.

Then, I read this

Maybe "package" turns people off because it also elicits other feelings about perceptions in this sport of gender roles and expectations of what makes a woman and what makes a man on the ice? And maybe a lot of those feelings are subconsciously felt?

This is all a very long winded but I think my THESIS is - The word "packaging" is problematic because it is both outdated while also saying too much and yet not enough. It has served a purpose to be sure, and has been very helpful over the years in identifying what why this skater might win over the next. However, it represents a time when gender roles were much stricter and the definition of "packaging" in skating was far more finite.

and it's coming together a little better.

I think for me, it's just a combination of it feeling "old-fashioned" (long-time posters will know I've lamented some of skating's tendencies to be stuck behind the times) and simply unrealistic in the context it's being used in...you know, like a word you would use in a beauty pageant or sales conference and not a real sport. I think it's the underlying stereotype that the phrase implies (as if that's the "ideal skater" or the way a skater "should" be). That's probably the best way I can put it right now - it's (still) hard for me to explain.

ETA: Something else - from post #19:

I think this is just making a big deal out of it. "Packaging" is used a term to describe their complete image and often used in marketing. Marketing a skater is so important because it helps with their PCS, their popularity and ability to get endorsements.

I think this gets to the core of what I'm getting at when I say "unrealistic". For me it just feels as if many people use the word to describe their favorites (or the way they wish their faves would skate). How, exactly, does "marketing" a skater help with her PCS? I can understand the other two, but I think it just gets to me, this whole thought about "image" of a skater factoring into the marks. If that's the case, I don't even know why I waste my time with all this TBH...
 
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Let's please make that thread. I feel like Maxim Trankov very nearly inspired a thread for that last year. If his yellow pants earned a twitter I feel it's the least we can do... :rofl:

I don't think we'd be allowed :drama:
 
I think this gets to the core of what I'm getting at when I say "unrealistic". For me it just feels as if many people use the word to describe their favorites (or the way they wish their faves would skate). How, exactly, does "marketing" a skater help with her PCS? I can understand the other two, but I think it just gets to me, this whole thought about "image" of a skater factoring into the marks. If that's the case, I don't even know why I waste my time with all this TBH...

Human bias always plays a role whether we think we are objective or not. Marketing a skater has a lot to with figure skating; we criticize the composition of their programs, their dresses, their jumping styles, spins etc. To choose a combination that complements the skater is a form of marketing the skater. Just like how people talk about politicking in figure skating, it plays a role. When I use the term "package" it means that their presentation is complete, like a singer comes with the full package: performance, voice, music, look etc.

If it bothers you it bothers you, but there is no denying human bias in skating. If there wasn't human bias, there would never be debates about what is the "correct" score for a program. I don't mean to sound rude or anything, I think we are just over-reacting for a common "catch-all" term.
 
I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the term "packaging" to describe a skater (though I agree that the term 'full package' usually means technical and artistic ability, and unfortunately we have yet to see that for the start of this Olympic quad.). But I understand samson's definition of what packaging means, and I understand why it may make fans unhappy. Essentially, packaging as samson defines it (and I to a certain extent agree) may be determined by nation, coach, and relative wealth of the skater--meaning that skaters who have the potential for the total package are simply unable to receive the necessary "packaging" required to make them successful in the eyes of judges and PCS scores. And even the skaters who do manage it (a la Gracie Gold, in my opinion) may be better serviced by different packaging.
 
I rarely hear anyone talking about whether a guy or a couple have the complete package.
 
I rarely hear anyone talking about whether a guy or a couple have the complete package.

Examples:

Tessa Virtue, speaking of her partnership with Scott Moir:

... Virtue said she and Moir had time to work on basic skating skills, which are a part of each program.
“Little things like that all add to the package,” she said.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/more-sports/virtue-moir-shake-it-up/article1358114/ (2012)

... “We’ll have new lifts this season but actually we’ve been spending most of the summer working on the free dance,” Virtue said. “We’re trying to develop the whole package so we’re focusing on the little details of the program.” ...
http://www.goldenskate.com/2009/08/virtue-and-moir-in-prime-form-for-olympics/ (2009)​

Coach Tom Z, speaking of his skater Max Aaron:

"This didn't just happen; this is how he trains," said Zakrajsek, who trains his skaters in Colorado Springs. "... The spin levels were there today, he got the footwork level. It's a total package for these guys nowadays."
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130127&content_id=41211420&vkey=ice_news (2013)​
 
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More examples of use of the word "package" for all skaters, from the description of Kori Ade at her 7k Skating Academy site:

<<Kori is the creator of TAPS (Total Athlete Performance Seminars) which is intended to develop the “whole” athlete, including the mental and emotional aspects that play such a powerful role in successful training and competing at all levels. Kori’s skills are uniquely positioned to develop athletes with the “complete package.”>> http://www.7kskating.com/about.html

Since Kori's most successful skater so far is male, I would assume she is applying this to all skaters. (I don't know if she coaches pairs, I only know about Jason, Jordan and Mariah).
 
^lord that was long. I didn't have time to edit fully so I hope it all made sense. Anyone who reads it and responds I'll be very grateful whatever your take away. :)

I am too blown away to respond, but thanks for the great post. :rock: :yes:
 
Going back to Post #5:
Highlighted "elemental attributes" in your post, b/c want to ask you what it means?? I really have no idea. Presumably not related to technical elements. But I don't know what you do mean in this context.

More or less: each of the components that make up a skater's ability: speed, jumping ability, spinning ability, stroking, performance capabilities, etc.
______________

Human bias always plays a role whether we think we are objective or not.

Of course it does. The difference here is whether judges are paying attention to what a skater is actually doing ON THE ICE or whether their preconceived notions and impressions of that skater, OUTSIDE of what's actually HAPPENING on the ice, is affecting or clouding their judgment. Subjectivity aside, the latter should not be tolerated or even accepted by the community.

Marketing a skater has a lot to with figure skating; we criticize the composition of their programs, their dresses, their jumping styles, spins etc. To choose a combination that complements the skater is a form of marketing the skater. Just like how people talk about politicking in figure skating, it plays a role. When I use the term "package" it means that their presentation is complete, like a singer comes with the full package: performance, voice, music, look etc.

What exactly does "complete" mean?
 
Going back to Post #5:
Of course it does. The difference here is whether judges are paying attention to what a skater is actually doing ON THE ICE or whether their preconceived notions and impressions of that skater, OUTSIDE of what's actually HAPPENING on the ice, is affecting or clouding their judgment. Subjectivity aside, the latter should not be tolerated or even accepted by the community.



What exactly does "complete" mean?

It's not acceptable, but it is inevitable.

Complete means they are well-rounded; nothing is missing.

I get it, you don't like the term but it is used because it is a "catch all" term. It is not just for skaters, but for singers, political leaders, dancers etc. People don't use the term to suggest a skater's attribute are artificial or manufactured.

Like I said, we are all overreacting; whether you attach an negative connotation to it or not, I think most don't object to the use of the term. This includes skaters and coaches.
 
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