Wagner "furious" on scores

[evasorange]

Actually the poster Ask was for once quite reasonable here. Ashley is a good performer and entertainer but that is only one PCS component. I rewatched her LP. The CO and IN were not her usual standard, not surprising as she was doing this programme new and fresh - not quite yet into it. Her SS and TR were always mediocre and in the past, she was generously rewarded for that - I mean can you imagine her scoring higher than Wakaba or Mai Mihara in SS in Worlds 2016 with her relatively weak bladework? Unfortunately, judges did only score her for what was put out on the ice and the CO and IN were low as expected - yes, lower than what she expected but hey she was not interpreting at her usual standard too due to the choreo being less established. All I can say is it was a wrong strategy in not starting out with Lalaland earlier in the season.

I can see your point and yes I agree it was a major mistake to not go with la la land from the start(whoever made that call at champs camp to go back to moulin rouge and not even see la la should be fired) but when you look at the pcs boost all three other ladies got (Karen ten points!!) and see that Ashley was the only one NOT to get a boost, its suspicious. It's pretty obvious to me that draw order was not random ether. But there's no sense in arguing now, us fed got what they wanted as they usually do. But I do want to ask if any of you who are outraged at Ashley calling out the judges keep up with other sports? Because this is pretty tame compared to like basketball where players can and will get in the face of a ref and shout and swear when they think they've gotten an unfair call. I love that they can do that as aren't scared to! Of course they usually have to pay a fine but then two nights later the slate is clean and they get another chance to prove themselves. Not so in skating unfortunately

 

[Mrs. P]

Both Mirai and Bradie outscored Ashley in the GP. And Karen outscored her at Worlds.

I've seen Ashley live at her best (i.e. Boston Worlds) and this wasn't close to that in my opinion. And i say this as someone who saw just her short at that comp. (And people told me she was absolutely electric in the FS).

 

[Mista Ekko]

But I do want to ask if any of you who are outraged at Ashley calling out the judges keep up with other sports? Because this is pretty tame compared to like basketball where players can and will get in the face of a ref and shout and swear when they think they've gotten an unfair call. I love that they can do that as aren't scared to! Of course they usually have to pay a fine but then two nights later the slate is clean and they get another chance to prove themselves. Not so in skating unfortunately

I'm never upset at a competitor who calls out the judging,
If anything it even takes guts in this specific sport,
It's important to be able to back up what you're saying though,
And people either care or they don't

honestly sometimes judges need to be called out we know this
as fans and we even do it ourselves
Sometimes there's foul play in this sport and one of the reasons it keeps happening
is skaters or coaches feeling they'd have to deal with backlash if they pointed it out
(From fans or judges) to the level that there have been discrepancies that
the WHOLE skating community is aware of and everyone's choosing to keep quiet
and stay "gracious"

I say if you feel strongly enough about it and you feel like you can take it,
Dish it out

 

[Blades of Passion]

But honestly, Do you see any of the top three getting scores like those internationally?

Well Karen didn't have an inflated score overall, she was held down and already got this many points at Worlds last season.

Mirai was crazy overscored at this competition though, even more than Bradie. Her transitions and skating skills are lacking, every area of PCS are lacking in her SP actually, yet the scores mostly didn't reflect it, although she did finally give more of a performance in the LP. One of the most shocking things in the scores to me though is how Mirai got Level 4 with +1.5 points on a step sequence, which is so wrong for what she put out on the ice, with all of those pushes and weak turns during the step sequence. That truly came from out of nowhere in the scores and should not be happening. She also underrotated the 3-3 in the LP but didn't get called for it. Mirai basically got tons of credit just for showing a relative amount of capability on the 3Axel and for her overall narrative of being a previous Olympian who declined and then built herself back up.

 

[evasorange]

Both Mirai and Bradie outscored Ashley in the GP. And Karen outscored her at Worlds.

I've seen Ashley live at her best (i.e. Boston Worlds) and this wasn't close to that in my opinion. And i say this as someone who saw just her short at that comp. (And people told me she was absolutely electric in the FS).

I don't think any of us are trying to argue that this was Ashley's best. It clearly wasn't. But it clearly wasn't Karen's best ether and she got a generous pcs boost. So did Mirai and Bradie. Why didn't Ashley? And we saw how brutal the panel was at skate Canada for everyone except osmund that I don't like comparing scores for any of the ladies that were there to their other teammates. It just was on a whole different level of harsh judging then we saw on any of the other grand prixs

 

[Mrs. P]

I don't really have much invested in us ladies, but those three, turned in great performances. Karen, even with all her URs, still grabbed me. I like Ashley and admire her grit over the years but she just didn't grab me in her free. YMMV.

 

[Mista Ekko]

Well Karen didn't have an inflated score overall, she was held down and already got this many points at Worlds last season.

She would've gotten 69.50 for that SP internationally?

The other's got 73

Ashley's was more realistic

 

[silverfoxes]

I can see your point and yes I agree it was a major mistake to not go with la la land from the start(whoever made that call at champs camp to go back to moulin rouge and not even see la la should be fired) but when you look at the pcs boost all three other ladies got (Karen ten points!!) and see that Ashley was the only one NOT to get a boost, its suspicious. It's pretty obvious to me that draw order was not random ether. But there's no sense in arguing now, us fed got what they wanted as they usually do. But I do want to ask if any of you who are outraged at Ashley calling out the judges keep up with other sports? Because this is pretty tame compared to like basketball where players can and will get in the face of a ref and shout and swear when they think they've gotten an unfair call. I love that they can do that as aren't scared to! Of course they usually have to pay a fine but then two nights later the slate is clean and they get another chance to prove themselves. Not so in skating unfortunately

I think her overinflated ego and sense of entitlement are the difference here. Look at Sergei Voronov - he got the same kind of treatment at Russian Nats where the top 3 all got inflated PCS and he didn't. Sergei, unlike Ashley, had a great season where he won gold & silver at 2 senior Bs, gold & bronze on the GP, made the GPF & skated well there too. He accepted the results with class and dignity, although he would have had an actual case for complaining. Ashley does not.

 

[Mista Ekko]

--

 

[GGFan]

Hard for me to work up any outrage here. No one, including Ashley, has done anything that spectacular that they deserve special consideration. No one was robbed and given Ashley's 4th place in 2014 I'm not feeling any pity. You can only control what you do, and I saw no signs of the crazy dedication Adam had for example. His spins actually improved this year and we saw the work that he put in. I'm not calling her lazy but just making the point that it's hard for me to feel there was an injustice done.

Let's be real, Ashley had her Jeff Buttle moment in 2016 and did not retire for a variety of reasons (including the lack of pro skater opportunities these days). I wish her the best and perhaps she'll still get a spot but she can miss me with the furious business. And don't even make Caro comparisons please: the skating skills, quality of movement, and even jump technique cannot be compared. Keep it classy Ashley.

 

[evasorange]

I think her overinflated ego and sense of entitlement are the difference here. Look at Sergei Voronov - he got the same kind of treatment at Russian Nats where the top 3 all got inflated PCS and he didn't. Sergei, unlike Ashley, had a great season where he won gold & silver at 2 senior Bs, gold & bronze on the GP, made the GPF final & skated well there too. He accepted the results with class and dignity, although he would have had an actual case for complaining. Ashley does not.

I wish he would have gotten mad and trashed the judges! He has every right in the world to do that. What happened to him was shameful. But I disagree with you, when it comes to pcs, what she is complaining about, Ashley has a case. Especially in terms of the sp. She is abrasive and sassy and doesn't hold back but isn't that just what people are cheering Gracie for on twitter now? Is it only allowed once you've left the sport?

 

[eriecold]

It very much felt like there was an active decision to "leave Ashley on her own" judging wise

She still could've grabbed it with a better performance,
And people could argue wether she deserves support or not

But honestly, Do you see any of the top three getting scores like those internationally?

Maybe Mirai, and that's a stretch. Karen, not a chance, they're going to scrutinize every single jump she makes and not compensate with PCS, and made that clear over the season. Bradie will score above 200 for sure but 10 - 15 points less in PCS.

 

[minze]

The judges both national and international did Ashley no favors by scoring her as if she was Carolina Kostner. She keeps saying she is a performer, so was Akiko Suzuki, but she never got PCS than other top ladies. My point is Ashley seems to think performing is the same as skating skills, interpretation is only a part of it.



Her attitude here really bothers me. Who does she think should be left home this time? The only women who had 2 clean programs in the competition or the one who legitimately outscored her for 2nd, or the one who did better in the SP has a better international record as of now

 

[slider11]

Wow....the controversy over who goes to the Olympics will have legs for awhile. I have never been a huge Ashley fan but there is a style and flow to Ashley's skating that clearly was not embraced by the judges last night. When Ashley lands a double axle she covers a quarter of the rink with her exit. Karen's skating, for me is small and more trick oriented with lots of arm movements. Ashley could have been more amply rewarded in her PCs.

However, I think Ashley made 2 tactical mistakes this season. One was pulling LaLa Land and going back to Moulon Rouge. It gave the appearance of a "yesterday" skater who just keeps bringing up the past. The second was withdrawing in the middle of her FS at Skate America for a foot infection. I'm not questioning whether she had a medical condition. But it was odd to pull out during the performance for an existing condition. If she couldn't skate she should have withdrawn before the competition or at least before the FS. Her behavior gave suspect to a skater who was not ready to give a great performance so leaned on a medical condition to step away. I'm not sure that's exactly what happened but it gave the perception of some shenanigans. These 2 perceptions did not play in Ashley's favor last night when the committee met.

I am feeling badly for Ashley and actually think her chances at the Olympics were better than the named 3. But , as Mirai said last night about 2010, you have to take responsibility for what you did or didn't do to get yourself in a particular situation.

When will the 4CC and Worlds team be named?

 

[Anni234]

When will the 4CC and Worlds team be named?

Already named. Worlds is same as Olympics team, 4CC is Ashley, Starr and Mariah.

 

[rlopen]

TBH though when we complain about skaters being angry about their results you know that the people ACTUALLY in power at ISU/USFSA/RusFed, etc probably are also angry as well...which probably explains why more skaters don't complain because they're all too afraid their results are gonna suffer if they don't criticize people for underscoring them. If the people who actually are underscored do criticize the judges for underscoring them, then it can put pressure on the judges to actually judge fairly. I also think it could start a more honest and more open dialogue if people weren't so petty and angry when people complain when they feel slighted. Ashley had every right to complain (it's a free world it's your life) even if it might not have been deserved, she still has a right to do so. Personally I like when people speak up when they feel like they're shafted because at least they're trying to do something than just roll over and accept their fate. Not gonna lie but this actually kinda made me like Ashley more.

 

[Warwick360]

Actually I am not so OTT with Karen. She has better SS than the other ladies and she wasn’t even the highest PCS scorer. Do you really think a Bradie was a 9 on PE? And both Bradie and Ashley scoring better than Karen on SS when they both are fairly weak on their edges and glide?

Can't find the scoresheets for Nationals.

But regardless, ignoring the scores, all I'm saying (and was saying) is I find Karen's skate too technical. There's no connection with audience or what she's skating to. I would have liked to say, it's probably the music choice but it was the same case in the past, I think for Carmen.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Karen would've gotten 69.50 for that SP internationally?

Who knows depending on the specific politics of the given competition. If pushed as the #1 of USA though and with continued exposure to judges, then yes that score would happen I think, it's the kind of program that should be scoring at least mid 70's when skated cleanly with the way things go these days, so with just one flawed element and still a very good performance, 69.5 sounds very accurate or even a little too low. Medvedeva/Zagitova/Osmond will get over 70 for a SP where they fall these days, so...

 

[Barb]

TBH though when we complain about skaters being angry about their results you know that the people ACTUALLY in power at ISU/USFSA/RusFed, etc probably are also angry as well...which probably explains why more skaters don't complain because they're all too afraid their results are gonna suffer if they don't criticize people for underscoring them. If the people who actually are underscored do criticize the judges for underscoring them, then it can put pressure on the judges to actually judge fairly. I also think it could start a more honest and more open dialogue if people weren't so petty and angry when people complain when they feel slighted. Ashley had every right to complain (it's a free world it's your life) even if it might not have been deserved, she still has a right to do so. Personally I like when people speak up when they feel like they're shafted because at least they're trying to do something than just roll over and accept their fate. Not gonna lie but this actually kinda made me like Ashley more.

Well, basically she is telling them that they are not doing a good job, so it is normal that they are so furious just like her. I don´t have problem with she complaining, except that I am not agree with her argument, but it is totally expected that she won´t get any favours saying that, and I did not see her complaining when judges gave her higher PCS than to Mao.

 

[skatenewbie]

I do think Ashley is underscored compared to others. Bradie is overscored in both LP and SP. Karen in PCS LP and SP. Mirai in PCS LP and her 3-3 UR in LP (but still think her SP is clean, 1/4 short). What weird is if they want Karen to be 3rd they can overlook her UR, but instead they gaver her 4/5 UR and give her crazy PCS to save her... Her PCS is way too high tbh. It should be around 32 and 66. Which bring her down 5 points overall and shpould be 4th...