Wanted: Mens Size 5.5 - 6.5 wide? Jackson boots or Risport

[Query]

I would love to try on Jackson Freestyle or Dance boots, mens size 6 wide. If they fit, and are in good condition at a reasonable price, I would likely buy them. With or without blades. If you have 5.5 or 6.5, I would still love to try them and maybe buy them. I'm trying to figure out how high the heels are, how wide the toes are, and the position, depth and orientation of the bend line in the footbed that is supposed to be across the ball of the foot.

Anywhere within about 6 hours of Maryland near Washington, D.C., or of Ithaca, NY.

So far I haven't found any stores that stock them. Or for that matter any men's boots (other than cheap rentals) in that size range.

I will be calling Jackson to see if they can help. I've already called many stores on the East Coast of the U.S.

I would also be interested in Risports in similar sizes.

 

[Query]

Oops. Jackson Freestyle boots are still available.

I went to the Jackson internal use website (jacksonultima.com, found through Google), where all boots are marked sold out (to prevent people from ordering direct), instead of the Jackson customer website (jacksonskates.com).

But I'm still looking for a store that stocks mens boots in that size range. So far, Jackson has just told me to call all the dealers I'm willing to travel to, which I've been doing, without luck so far - or to trust that an ordered skate will fit.

They cannot alter footbed shape. The custom customer rep didn't know what I meant by a bend line, and I couldn't explain it in a way she understood. In fact she said the footbed is "flat", though higher at the rear. I probably could find a store with other size Jackson boots to check whether that is true. If it is really true, that would solve a lot of my fit problems - I could easily make insoles that would contour to my foot, if I don't have to contend with a major bend across where they incorrectly think the ball of my foot is. (Or someone could make me an orthotic or insert - but I'm confident I could do it myself.)

She also also said they offer "full custom" boots that take 6-8 weeks to make, for $1050. They can shave up to 3/16 from the heel height (gee, I could do that too, with a saw). They don't contour the bottom to fit there either - she suggested I get someone to make me orthotics.

 

[tstop4me]

(1) Issues not addressed here: How do you know that Jacksons are right for your feet? How do you know that your correct size in a Jackson is 6W? Let's put those issues aside for now.

(2) As you've found out, retailers generally do not stock men's figure skating boots (other than those that come as part of el-cheapo kits). Just not enough demand. And Jackson, in particular, changes their models frequently. So no retailer wants to be stuck with discontinued stock that they need to clear out at discounted prices.

(3) Option 1: Go to a Jackson retailer. Decide as best you can which model you want. Have your feet measured/traced/scanned (in another post I discussed the limitations of the Jackson scanner). Have the retailer order the boots for you to try on. As long as you don't modify the boots in any way, they generally can be returned if you don't like them. Some retailers will charge a return fee; some will not. Ask the retailer what their specific return policy is. You're less likely to be charged a return fee if you've done long-term business with them (e.g., previous purchases, sharpenings, referrals). But I believe that's not the case for you.

(4) Option 2: Go to a Jackson retailer. Most (not all) Jackson boots have a men's and a women's counterpart. They differ in color as expected, but also in stiffness (men's are stiffer than women's). But if you are primarily interested in the fit, see if the counterpart women's model is available in your size. You may luck out here since your feet are relatively small. According to the Jackson Ultima website: "Men's sizing is 1.5 sizes smaller than women's sizes, built on the same last. For example, Men's size 7 is equal to women's size 8.5." So a men's size 6 would be equal to a women's size 7.5. I checked a variety of the Jackson boots; women's sizes are available up to a women's size 9 or 10, depending on the model. So it's a viable option. Caveat: Before you go this route, check with Jackson on the width conversion: it's not clear to me whether or not a men's W is the same as a women's W. Jackson changed their width configuration several years ago, but never updated their comparison charts. If the widths are the same, then find a retailer that stocks a size 7.5W women's boot to try on.

 

[tstop4me]

In fact she said the footbed is "flat", though higher at the rear.

I have the Jackson Supreme 5362. Out of curiosity, I took out the removable insole/footbed and traced the fixed insole/footbed with my finger. It's definitely not configured as an inclined plane (which is what I interpret the Jackson rep to mean). Longitudinally (toe to heel), it's definitely contoured. If you look up the model on the Jackson Ultima website, there are photos of the boot, including a side profile shot. The longitudinal contour of the fixed insole/footbed generally follows that of the outsole (readily visible on the side profile shot); probably not identical, but definitely not an inclined plane.

 

[Query]

As to how I know that Jackson boots will fit me: I don't. That's why I want to try them on before buying. It's pure guesswork.

Jackson size charts:

Jackson Skate

Jackson Ultima is a global leader in figure skate boots and blades. Our expertise and passion for the sport is embodied in Jackson Ultima’s commitment to technology that enhances the performance of the World’s leading skaters. We also offer a complete range of recreational figure and leisure skates.

jacksonskate.com

ic3Rabit seems to think Jackson & Risport are the only two brands of stock skate suitable for people with wide toes. I don't know anything about Risport, other than that the (relatively low level - single leather thickness) almost new boots I bought used some years ago broke down in a month.

Though a skating lady of my acquaintance just pointed out that it might cost less to buy used boots online than to travel hundreds of miles to a shop that has them in stock, if that even exists. If they fit, but are too broken down, I could go to a shop to order new ones. And if they aren't too broken down for me to use, I've saved my self a lot of money. If they almost fit, maybe I could order Jackson Rapid Custom boots. Since I've already done things like heat mold & punch my own boots, mount my own blades, and make my own insoles, I can do myself much of what a good skate tech would do for me, which makes buying online a little less dangerous for me than for most skaters. OTOH, I may not be able to find 6 wide - maybe just 6. If the used skates don't work, maybe I can resell them - though that might be hard for the same reason that finding boots in my size is hard - not many men have my shape & size feet.

Jackson Freestyles might be too stiff for me. I'm only doing 1/2 rotation jumps, and am getting older. But they don't list anything suitable that can handle more than Basic 6 (which only has bunny hops).

By those charts I'm a Mens 6 M (medium), maybe a little less than M. But the widest part of my foot is the toes - and most boots narrow at the ends. Also, my toes & metatarsals are a bit on the small size, including in height and the width measurement is a circumference (distance around the foot), not a true foot width. Plus on almost any shoe, width is the limiting factor for me - I usually have to buy 1 or 2 sizes longer than I otherwise would. (Womens sizes are narrower - as shown by that chart. They also narrow more at the toes.) So I'm going wide.

I'd rather have a little extra space to play with that I can fill, than not enough space - especially in the toe box, which is very hard to stretch. For people who don't know how to fill space, by making their own insoles, that might be a mistake.

I rather full customs again, but measured right this time, but the prices and production delays are so very high. (Harlick is quoting two years and $1795, Avanta is about 1/2 year and $2250. Jackson "full custom" boots don't allow much customization along the lines I need. My boots are already so soft it hurts to jump at all.)

 

[Query]

(4) Option 2: Go to a Jackson retailer. Most (not all) Jackson boots have a men's and a women's counterpart. They differ in color as expected, but also in stiffness (men's are stiffer than women's). But if you are primarily interested in the fit, see if the counterpart women's model is available in your size. You may luck out here since your feet are relatively small. According to the Jackson Ultima website: "Men's sizing is 1.5 sizes smaller than women's sizes, built on the same last. For example, Men's size 7 is equal to women's size 8.5." So a men's size 6 would be equal to a women's size 7.5. I checked a variety of the Jackson boots; women's sizes are available up to a women's size 9 or 10, depending on the model. So it's a viable option. Caveat: Before you go this route, check with Jackson on the width conversion: it's not clear to me whether or not a men's W is the same as a women's W. Jackson changed their width configuration several years ago, but never updated their comparison charts. If the widths are the same, then find a retailer that stocks a size 7.5W women's boot to try on.

I changed my mind and did what you suggest. The Jackson Womens 7.5 regular is too thin for me at the toes. The 8 is not. But I found a women's 7.5 wide Freestyle pair used at Play It Again Sports - it wasn't stiff enough anymore (and they were white with pink trim, which I won't wear), but they seemed to fit pretty well - I think within heat molding + custom insole modification. I really like the feel of the padding at the ankle bones - I probably wouldn't even have to punch it out there. I may try again later there, or look at one of the other Play It Again Sports in the area, but I'm doubtful I can find good men's figure skates that fit me.

So I guess a Jackson mens size 6 regular would do. But I would go to the best skate tech in the area, to have him verify my size estimate. I could probably get it cheaper mail order, but skate boots are one of the few things I don't think it worth economizing on, and where I would prefer to deal with a good shop. When I watched Mike Cunningham work, I think he rejected roughly 15% of boot pairs and 15% of blade pairs, for various defects. A good skate tech might find it easier to convince the manufacturer of a defect than I would.

I probably never really needed custom boots. And the local pro shop said stock Jacksons only take about 5 days to deliver. Much faster, and cheaper, than the custom boots I was considering.

The profile curvature of the footbed seems quite reasonable - not nearly as sharp a bend line as I feared. But the heel is too high for my tastes - almost as high as my old Klingbeils, which are problematical. I guess I could progressively cut them down, until I'm happy. If I cut too much, I could shim to restore a little height. I suppose the pro shop heat mold should come after cutting them down and playing with the insole. Since they have a real oven, they might be able to do better than me.

So thanks for the suggestion! You've been pretty happy with Jackson boots, yes?

Maybe I should get new blades while I'm at it. While I've lots of Matrix I runners left, I've never been thrilled with the Jackson spin rocker, and the Ultima Supreme runners were really designed for higher level skaters - the toepick is too aggressive (though cutting down the heel might help). So I should figure out what type of blades to get. Since I'm doing 1/2 rotation jumps, I guess complete beginner blades won't work, but I want an MK profile that isn't for high level skaters.

 

[tstop4me]

So thanks for the suggestion! You've been pretty happy with Jackson boots, yes?

Yes, I have been happy with the two pairs of Jacksons that I have purchased so far. But my personal experience has zero predictive value for how satisfied you will be with the Jackson model you select. Especially since Jackson has such a broad line of gear and frequently changes their line. In particular, the models I've bought are substantially more advanced than the one you're considering, if I understand you correctly (see below).

I would love to try on Jackson Freestyle or Dance boots, mens size 6 wide. ...

I would also be interested in Risports in similar sizes.

I'm confused. In your first post (cited above), it appeared that you were using "Freestyle" to refer to a class of boot; that is, "Freestyle" vs. "Ice Dance" , not a particular model. This is consistent with you also wanting to look at Risports. But in your subsequent posts, it appears that you are using "Freestyle" to refer to the specific Jackson Freestyle 2192 model, which is a kit with a pre-mounted Ulitima Aspire XP blade. Is that correct? If so, I'm surprised you're planning to go that route.

So I guess a Jackson mens size 6 regular would do. But I would go to the best skate tech in the area, to have him verify my size estimate. I could probably get it cheaper mail order, but skate boots are one of the few things I don't think it worth economizing on, and where I would prefer to deal with a good shop.

You definitely should go see a fitter. Especially since you've been rooting through second-hand shops. There has been several revisions of the Freestyle since at least 2014, when I first purchased Jacksons. The fit and the sizing have changed. The current women's model is 2190. So if you're planning to order the men's 2192 based on how the counterpart women's model fits, you need to verify that the women's model is a 2190, not an earlier model. The model number is likely stamped on the inner lining below the top of the boot, assuming it hasn't rubbed off.

Also, the widths on recent models are combo widths: for women's: R(A/B), W(C/D); for men's: M(A/B), W(C/D). So, e.g., for the women's boots that you've been trying on for size, a W could be a C out of the box or a D if stretched in width via heat molding. But with the used boots you're trying on, you don't know whether or not they've been stretched, either intentionally via heat molding or unintentionally through extended wear.

 

[Query]

Thanks! I was talking about the "Freestyle" boot model. I guess it is the lowest level boot Jackson has for 1/2 rotation jumps, which is what I try to do. At least according to the Jackson boot guide. I considered Risports, but at least once source says their toes are less wide.

They don't look heat molded, in terms of having any obvious bumps. Yes, they could have been stretched through wear. But for the most part, toeboxes can't be widened by wear much, in my personal experience. I kept trying to punch the toebox of my old Klingbeils, next to my big a little toes, but after a day or few, they mostly returned to width. (I used heat, moisture and pressure, which was the way Don Klingbeil said their boots were formed, though I didn't use as much heat or pressure as the factory. I also took them once to the Klingbeil factory store, and they did what they could.) But basically, toeboxes don't stretch much, not even over 20+ years. (And ankles only stretch a little - but the ankles of these boots already feel fine. I think toebox & ankle bone shaping should optimally be done while the boot is made, and that spec should be part of the fit process.)

I'm thinking of buying the Freestyles anyway, if they are cheap enough (I forgot to look), to practice the mods needed to cut down heels, and to see whether that is actually practical. And to give me practice dying white boots black, because I'd like to see if I can do that. (What can I say? I love to experiment.) (I wonder if Jackson applies a clear coat, and whether it dissolves in alcohol or I need acetone. Maybe Jackson will tell me.) I think they are still stiff enough to be low level ice dance boots, if I do that again.

They come with Aspire blades, which Jackson describes as adequate for low level freestyle or dance. That's closer to my level than the Matrix I Supreme runners I've recently been skating on (somewhere I have Matrix I Dance & Synchro runners too) - though I still loved MK Dance. But I'm guessing MK Dance are hard to jump or spin in, even for a perpetual beginner, because the drag pick is bent back, and rounded off. Plus, MK Dance are too high priced for a skater of my level. OTOH, the Aspire blades probably have significant wear, so I may need to trim the drag pick, or give up on them. (I still have old MK Dance, but they are too worn, and I messed up the profile while learning to sharpen.)

 

[tstop4me]

They don't look heat molded, in terms of having any obvious bumps. Yes, they could have been stretched through wear. But for the most part, toeboxes can't be widened by wear much, in my personal experience. I kept trying to punch the toebox of my old Klingbeils, next to my big a little toes, but after a day or few, they mostly returned to width. (I used heat, moisture and pressure, which was the way Don Klingbeil said their boots were formed, though I didn't use as much heat or pressure as the factory. I also took them once to the Klingbeil factory store, and they did what they could.) But basically, toeboxes don't stretch much, not even over 20+ years. (And ankles only stretch a little - but the ankles of these boots already feel fine. I think toebox & ankle bone shaping should optimally be done while the boot is made, and that spec should be part of the fit process.)

Models in the Jackson line that are heat moldable (el-cheapo models aren't heat moldable; the Freestyles are) are engineered differently from boots of yore. They have a thermoplastic interface layer between the outer layer and the linings. The entire boot can be baked in an oven. They can also be spot heated with a hair dryer or heat gun. When heated, the uppers can be molded. When cooled, the thermoplastic layer retains the molded shape. My boots were initially heat molded to my feet: When the boots were popped out of the oven, I inserted my DIY corrective insoles/footbeds, inserted my feet, and laced up. You need to stay still for ~15 min while the boots cool. If you can stand still for that long, that's preferable. If you can't, then you sit. I was able to stand.

I have "Orient" shaped feet according to the chart that Ic3 cites. I get a better, more comfortable fit by widening the toebox. This can be done by spot heating the toebox and using a shaper tool inside the boot (heating the tool helps). Several iterations can be done. But it takes an experienced tech with the right tools.

I have no other issues such as bunions. The only apparent "bumps" are the ankle pockets (which in my models are initially formed at the factory, then fine tuned via heat molding). Otherwise there's nothing to scream out that they've been heat molded. I haven't had any issue with the boots relaxing to their initial state.

 

[tstop4me]

'm thinking of buying the Freestyles anyway, if they are cheap enough (I forgot to look), to practice the mods needed to cut down heels, and to see whether that is actually practical. And to give me practice dying white boots black, because I'd like to see if I can do that. (What can I say? I love to experiment.) (I wonder if Jackson applies a clear coat, and whether it dissolves in alcohol or I need acetone. Maybe Jackson will tell me.) I think they are still stiff enough to be low level ice dance boots, if I do that again.

Remember, the current Freestyles have synthetic uppers (pre ~2015 they were leather). Be careful with solvents, because they might attack the uppers themselves, not just the coating (if any).

 

[Query]

The used skates are model 2190. I just bought them for $35. Is one supposed to bargain at Play It Again Sports? I didn't.

I'm surprised I found skates anywhere, let along a used sports equipment store, that fit. That doesn't happen to me often. So when I find footwear that fits, and serves a need, I tend to buy it, unless it is over-priced.

But the color is wrong. No doubt ladies of my acquaintance will tease me about it.

I think cutting down the heel will change the angle of the foot and leg to the rest of the boot, so could totally mess up fit. It might also be harder to reach the toepick. I'd rather experiment on $35 used boots than on $380 new boots.

How did you find out that models before 2190 were shaped different? Is there a good source of info on that sort of thing?

The entire boots is a little wider than my current boots, from toe to heel, unusual for a women's boot. I suppose a heat mold could have widened almost everything. But because of the padding, the boot is a bit thicker. So it fits with thin socks pretty snug at the sides and heel. There is a bit of space over the toe - maybe cutting down the heel will fix that, and I could just make a thicker insole underneath the toe.

The sides of the boot are substantially less stiff than new Freestyles, but substantially more stiff than my current boots. Perhaps I could actually use them a while. Unless I destroy them by cutting down the heels. The insoles look squashed.

The Aspire XP blades have a lot of wear, though the touchpoint (where a line from the drag pick is tangent to the rocker profile - maybe you have a different name), as well the point between the main rocker and spin rocker sections, are further back than on my Supremes. They have about 1/2" ROH, are already sharp, and are center mounted.

If I stick with 1/2" ROH, I will probably buy modern material abrasive cylinders, and put them in a Berghman sharpener. I've also been playing with the idea of just using an abrasive cylinder without a handle or guide, but pulling it against the hollow with webbing or a leather strop, with my fingers clamped around the bottom of the blade, to keep it taut & centered. An elegant solution to sharpening - if it works. Probably won't. A lot of my experiments don't.

 

[NanaPat]

But the color is wrong. No doubt ladies of my acquaintance will tease me about it.

You could just use a black Lycra boot cover. here is a sample; for purposes of illustration only, they are available from lots of vendors.

 

[tstop4me]

How did you find out that models before 2190 were shaped different? Is there a good source of info on that sort of thing?

Serendipity and personal knowledge. For detailed info you would need to root through the Jackson archives. But I don't know what the status of the Wayback Machine is.

A friend of mine had a leather pair of Freestyles that she used for ice dance. She's really picky about fit; the stock boots were a good fit (with adjustments); and she loved them. When she bought a replacement pair, she found out that the fit had changed; no good. So I kept her old pair alive for a couple of more years until she finally found a different pair of boots that fit properly.

At one time, the Freestyle was sold as the Jackson entry level separate boot; later demoted to their top kit boot. At one time, the top Jackson boots were formed on their "Elite last". Lower boots, including the Freestyle, weren't. Then Jackson started migrating the Elite last down to lower models, including the Freestyle. At one time, the Elite last came in single widths (... AA, A, B, C, D, ...). Then they switched to the current combo widths.

 

[tstop4me]

You could just use a black Lycra boot cover. here is a sample; for purposes of illustration only, they are available from lots of vendors.

Or he can just exert his individuality and wear them as is. When I wore out the duffel bag that I cart to the rink, I was about to buy a new one. Then in a closet, my wife found an old duffel bag. It belonged to my daughter when she was a kid; she's all grown up now. I called her and asked her whether she still wanted it. She said no, I could have it. It's lavender with pink trim with her name embroidered on it. It was in good condition and sturdier than much of the junk on the market these days. So it's my regular rink bag now. Great as an interesting conversation starter at times.

 

[NanaPat]

Or he can just exert his individuality and wear them as is. When I wore out the duffel bag that I cart to the rink, I was about to buy a new one. Then in a closet, my wife found an old duffel bag. It belonged to my daughter when she was a kid; she's all grown up now. I called her and asked her whether she still wanted it. She said no, I could have it. It's lavender with pink trim with her name embroidered on it. It was in good condition and sturdier than much of the junk on the market these days. So it's my regular rink bag now. Great as an interesting conversation starter at times.

Our primary checked luggage is a rolling duffle bag in a gosh-awful greeny-yellow color. My husband chose the color; I was resistant because I thought it would show dirt a lot. We were both right: it is super easy to spot on the conveyor belt, and after many years we are thinking of cleaning it when we can wash and dry it outside. Oh, get real: we probably won't think of it until next time we need it, and then it will be too late!

 

[tstop4me]

Our primary checked luggage is a rolling duffle bag in a gosh-awful greeny-yellow color. My husband chose the color; I was resistant because I thought it would show dirt a lot. We were both right: it is super easy to spot on the conveyor belt, and after many years we are thinking of cleaning it when we can wash and dry it outside. Oh, get real: we probably won't think of it until next time we need it, and then it will be too late!

Haha. Your husband thinks like me. I noticed how difficult it was for someone to find their own black bag among a sea of similar black bags. Some people would grab a bag, check the tag, and then put it back. Some would tie a ribbon around the handle; but so would a lot of other people. I got an olive green bag and painted bright red polka dots all over it (so it would be easy to "spot", haha). My wife hates it, but I always know which bag is mine.

 

[Query]

I used to use Lycra boot covers to reducing abrasion. They sometimes come loose. And wear out fast.

Maybe bright colored utility cord laces, like the orange ones I favor against black boots for a Halloween effect, would distract from their being white. Or maybe just black laces?

Or tstop4me's polka dots...

A lot of guys wear white tennis shoes & shirts. The white shoe=female concept isn't universal.

I could also tape it.

But Youtube videos make applying shoe polish to skates look Easy. Clean, tape the outsole & apply. Maybe their boots don't have clear coat, or they use a polish that adheres to it.

Along the lines of your duffel bags, I've sometimes left a sea kayak on my car, to make it easy to find in parking lots. (Not good for gas mileage, and someone might run into it; it's longer than my car.) I wish I'd stuck with a tall truck or van with tall roof racks.

Now adding bright polka dots to my car... Nah.

 

[Query]

Oh, sugar!

The boots are still a bit wide.

A local skate tech says modern boot construction heat molding cannot shrink - so once a boot has been stretched, that cannot be undone. Unlike my leather Klingbeils, which kept unstretching themselves. I tried fairly thick socks, though that generally isn't recommended for figure skates. I can't use thicker socks, because the toes were already somewhat touching in front with those socks.

Since the boots are internally padded, it would be hard to glue leather into the inner sides, to take up space. I may try stuffing something else there - e.g. thin cheap insoles, cut to shape, possibly held with a light tack glue.

Anyway, cinched as tight as I could, using lace pullers and utility cord (an the original lace broke - they weren't in great shape), I skated about 15 minutes today. The main problem was the blades. I'm leaving my old blades on my old skates for comparison purposes. Since these blades were designed for people closer to my skating level, they should have been easier. But I'm not used to the rocker curvature transition point, or to the touch point. I had even more trouble jumping & spinning. It will take me a while to get used to them. I hope not as long as it took me to go from MK Dance to Ultima Dance, which was a very long time. No point cutting down the heels until I grok the blades.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

As to how I know that Jackson boots will fit me: I don't. That's why I want to try them on before buying. It's pure guesswork.

Jackson size charts:

Jackson Skate

Jackson Ultima is a global leader in figure skate boots and blades. Our expertise and passion for the sport is embodied in Jackson Ultima’s commitment to technology that enhances the performance of the World’s leading skaters. We also offer a complete range of recreational figure and leisure skates.

jacksonskate.com

ic3Rabit seems to think Jackson & Risport are the only two brands of stock skate suitable for people with wide toes. I don't know anything about Risport, other than that the (relatively low level - single leather thickness) almost new boots I bought used some years ago broke down in a month.

Though a skating lady of my acquaintance just pointed out that it might cost less to buy used boots online than to travel hundreds of miles to a shop that has them in stock, if that even exists. If they fit, but are too broken down, I could go to a shop to order new ones. And if they aren't too broken down for me to use, I've saved my self a lot of money. If they almost fit, maybe I could order Jackson Rapid Custom boots. Since I've already done things like heat mold & punch my own boots, mount my own blades, and make my own insoles, I can do myself much of what a good skate tech would do for me, which makes buying online a little less dangerous for me than for most skaters. OTOH, I may not be able to find 6 wide - maybe just 6. If the used skates don't work, maybe I can resell them - though that might be hard for the same reason that finding boots in my size is hard - not many men have my shape & size feet.

Jackson Freestyles might be too stiff for me. I'm only doing 1/2 rotation jumps, and am getting older. But they don't list anything suitable that can handle more than Basic 6 (which only has bunny hops).

By those charts I'm a Mens 6 M (medium), maybe a little less than M. But the widest part of my foot is the toes - and most boots narrow at the ends. Also, my toes & metatarsals are a bit on the small size, including in height and the width measurement is a circumference (distance around the foot), not a true foot width. Plus on almost any shoe, width is the limiting factor for me - I usually have to buy 1 or 2 sizes longer than I otherwise would. (Womens sizes are narrower - as shown by that chart. They also narrow more at the toes.) So I'm going wide.

I'd rather have a little extra space to play with that I can fill, than not enough space - especially in the toe box, which is very hard to stretch. For people who don't know how to fill space, by making their own insoles, that might be a mistake.

I rather full customs again, but measured right this time, but the prices and production delays are so very high. (Harlick is quoting two years and $1795, Avanta is about 1/2 year and $2250. Jackson "full custom" boots don't allow much customization along the lines I need. My boots are already so soft it hurts to jump at all.)

I think what? Yes, I know from experience that Jackson and Risport RF line are the best for a wider toebox, there are some Graf's that will work too if you have a flatter foot, but not too many. Also, please don't go shopping for figure skates at Play it again sports, pure trash. And used skates are a bad idea. I used to compete in Klingbeils until they went out of business, so if that tells you anything (I have a Greek foot). Also, I agree with pretty much all that @tstop4me has said here.

 

[Query]

I called a lot of pro shops that carry figure boots within a few hundred miles of my location. Play It Again Sports was the only place I could find with Jackson boots close to the size I thought I needed, based on Jackson's fit guide. And they almost fit! I'd previously bought a pair of hockey boots there that was in great condition. But they priced the Freestyles at $35, less than half the price of some of their figure boots, so maybe they knew they aren't ideal. I'm not sure if they knew why - though the wear on the blades is obvious, because there is less than 1/8" left of the chrome relief portion. But there are only a few minor scratches on the boots, no breakdown creases, the boots were a lot stiffer than some of the boots they had in the store. The blades have sharp even edges, a somewhat polished hollow, and the toepicks are intact. I don't know if they knew the boots aren't nearly as stiff as new Jackson Freestyles.

I didn't realize Graf has different toe styles. The one Graf pair I've tried - and used for a few months, before a heel fell apart - which other people have complained online about Graf boots - has toes that are relatively narrow by my standards. I got them to work because they were a full size too large, I heat molded them and filled the extra space with foam and other things. That made them fit, but I don't feel I should have to do a lot of that on purchased new boots, and it made for heavy bulky boots. (Didn't help that they were too high level for the low level ice dance I was doing. But I got the pair unused and free, so...)

The experience with filling unused space in the Grafs might help me adapt the used Jacksons, long enough to find out whether I can successfully cut down heels, and adapt the other things that implies. Because if I can't, I think Jacksons heels are too high for me. Jackson says they won't shave more than 3/16" off even full custom boots - not enough. If I can make cutting down heels work, stock Jacksons are a lot cheaper and faster to order than the custom boots I looked into.

The skate tech I watched work for 2 or 3 months had a very low opinion of Graf - among other things because they refused to allow him to return what he felt were defective boots. But that might have been a long time ago too. Plus, he returned a lot of boots & blades - he mostly served elite figure skaters who appreciated his high standards.