IMO yes. Because of nerves or something she falls apart mid way and therefore its to ambitious. Her coach and staff need to give her something she can work with that not only brings out her beautiful ballet style but some jumps and spins that she really excells at. Sasha is a lovely one of a kind skater but SL seems just too much for her.
Was Cohen's program too ambitious?
- Thread starter Ogre Mage
- Start date
It's funny how we criticise Sasha for not being perfect. I agree with whoever said that she is being measured up against so many perfect Michelle Kwan performances. What other national champion has given so many clean performances besides Plushenko? Has anyone ever looked to see how many clean LP's Fumie or Irina have skated? I doubt it. In any other country, Sasha would be dominant, skating like she did at this year's Nationals.
It will be interesting to see how she changes her LP for Worlds. By the way, she has changed her LP so many times this year. Could that be part of the problem?
It will be interesting to see how she changes her LP for Worlds. By the way, she has changed her LP so many times this year. Could that be part of the problem?
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2003
Sorry Lucy but I think that you are missing 2 very crucial facts in your argument.
1. Neither Fumie nor Irina nor any other skater whom one can think of who is less than perfect on a continuous basis are continuously hyped up as "possibly the greatest skater of all time". Once Fumie begins to get just 1/10th of all the hype that Sasha has acumulated, then I'll consider your argument.
2. Fumie and Irina (and others) may not be consistent, but they have been perfect from time to time. That is what consistant means, sometimes they are on and sometimes they are off. Sasha OTOH can be called consistant. She has never to date thrown down one single mistake free LP in competition in the past 5 years of competing on the senior level.
1. Neither Fumie nor Irina nor any other skater whom one can think of who is less than perfect on a continuous basis are continuously hyped up as "possibly the greatest skater of all time". Once Fumie begins to get just 1/10th of all the hype that Sasha has acumulated, then I'll consider your argument.
2. Fumie and Irina (and others) may not be consistent, but they have been perfect from time to time. That is what consistant means, sometimes they are on and sometimes they are off. Sasha OTOH can be called consistant. She has never to date thrown down one single mistake free LP in competition in the past 5 years of competing on the senior level.
I think she focused much on getting nailing those 3/2 combos, and then got too confident and thought she had the title, but then BAM(!!) she fell and then landed on two feet for another.
It is obvious that Sasha needs more time to get adjusted to her coach. Sasha is NO Sarah. Sarah could get the difficult jump combos when it counted. Sarah was one of a kind.
Robyn can only lead the horse to water. She can't make her drink.
It is obvious that Sasha needs more time to get adjusted to her coach. Sasha is NO Sarah. Sarah could get the difficult jump combos when it counted. Sarah was one of a kind.
Robyn can only lead the horse to water. She can't make her drink.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I agree Fossi, Sasha drives me up a wall. The program was going along fine. There was gold in dem dar hills but then, right in front of me, she screws up a triple toe which should have been as difficult as a waltz jump for her.
Can we blame the coaches? She's had three that I know and yet the dumb mistakes appear with all of them. IMO, she needs to have a heart to heart with a respectable Sports Shrink.
As I said before, I believe her to be hyper (a problem I had to deal with for quite awhile.) Someone has to reach her and tell her to just skate without the thought of having a gold medal put around her neck. It doesn't have to be or should it be a choach. She can do it. But, imo, she has to take control of her dreams first! Just my opinion.
Joe
Can we blame the coaches? She's had three that I know and yet the dumb mistakes appear with all of them. IMO, she needs to have a heart to heart with a respectable Sports Shrink.
As I said before, I believe her to be hyper (a problem I had to deal with for quite awhile.) Someone has to reach her and tell her to just skate without the thought of having a gold medal put around her neck. It doesn't have to be or should it be a choach. She can do it. But, imo, she has to take control of her dreams first! Just my opinion.
Joe
Lucy,Lucy25 said:
ITA that this has been one of the main problems with "SL," ie, constant changes. Another problem was just dumb bad luck in getting sick at IFSC, which was a week before GPF, along with the shingles problem at Nats.
Not much can be done about getting sick, other than taking good care of yourself. Sasha had an awfully full plate this past fall. We can Monday Morning Quarterback and say "She should have skipped the cheezefest!" but as I said before, I don't think the skaters or especially the ISU see them as cheezefests. I certainly don't know what I would do if I were in Sasha's situation with that kind of pressure from the USFSA and ISU.
But changes can be, well, changed. I really hope Robin Wagner settles on a single version of "SL" and trains Sasha with lots of single and double runthoughs with jumps. That way "SL" had a good chance of getting into Sasha's muscle memory. If Sasha does train and compete that way and still has problems, then I would agree the main problem lies elsewhere.
IMO, I think Sasha's mental attitude is fine now, although I'm a great supporter of sports psycholgy. Last year, yes, I do think she had a hard time not thinking about trying to win. But this year, I saw a whole new attitude right from the git at Campbell's. I really felt she was skating for herself only. Also, I think her comments about wanting to get more joy back in her daily skating is indicative of the idea that she does not have a constant "must win" mentality.
I also don't think there is just one definition of consistency. Sasha may have never had a perfect LP, but she's had a number of LPs in the last two seasons where she's made only one or two minor mistakes in extremely difficult programs. She's also rarely had a total meltdown since '01/02. The only one I remember is when she tried to do the quad at I believe SC '01. She missed it and then kept trying to do it and just kept falling. Yeesh! But other than that, I can't recall her having a competition where she fell apart. On the GP circuit in the last two years, she's never finished lower than second. At Nationals, it's been all silvers except for last year's bronze. Her nemesis has really been Worlds, IMO, where she has been stuck in 4th since '02. I guess you could count the Olympics too as a "failure," but considering the situation (her first major international competition--she'd never been to Worlds prior to '02) and the competition--Michelle, Irina, and Sarah's amazing skate, I think 4th is nothing to dump on. Also, as I've said before, Sasha has never hyped herself as "the greatest skater ever" (I've never even heard that from any commentator or critic). Sasha can't help what others say about her.
So to answer the question of this thread: Is Sasha's program too ambitious? Right now, I'd say no. Her LP changed at every competition from Campbell's to Nationals. I'd like to see Sasha train and compete an unchanged LP for several months, then I'd be better able to decide if the problem is technical, physical (ie, lack of endurance), mental, or psychological.
Rgirl
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2003
I don't see Sasha's programs as any more difficult than those of the other top females. From a techical standpoint, Tara's "Sense & Sensibility" LP was just as, if not more difficult than anything Sasha has ever attempted. Tara didn't seem to have any difficulty in performing it with little to no error on a regular basis.
I don't think that anyone is saying that Sasha meltsdown. But she does consistantly make mistakes, while other top females are at least clean from time to time.
It's "possibly the greatest skater of all time", and IIRC, it was said by Tom Hammon at 02 SC during the SP. If you are saying that you have never heard a commentator say something similar, well I'd really have to wonder if you watch televised skating at all, or ever read articles. But I know better. 
This really is a difficutlt question. She can't seem to skate a clean 6 or 7 triple program, but if she dumbed it down, she'd be behind what the other top femals are attempting. So, she's really trapped between a rock and a hard place at this point. Let's hope Robin has some answers.
Re what Tom Hammon said, as Johnny Carson used to say, "I did not know that." So I stand corrected. As for other critics and commentators, I've heard them say, "She has perfect technique" (she doesn't, not by a long shot); I've heard Terry Gannon ask Dick or Peggy or whomever he's commentating with, "Is Sasha the best ladies skater out there?" which I've always heard get a qualified response, something like, "When she's on, she's incredible," or my personal favorite, Dick Button's response, "If she'd just keep her head on!" because I imagine Sasha doing a truly headless scratch spin with her head flying off and into one of the judge's laps. Anyway, it's always a qualified answer--but I missed Tom Hammond, obviously I could have missed others.berthes ghost said:It's "possibly the greatest skater of all time", and IIRC, it was said by Tom Hammon at 02 SC during the SP. If you are saying that you have never heard a commentator say something similar, well I'd really have to wonder if you watch televised skating at all, or ever read articles. But I know better.
I just have to go by what I've heard and remember--and then revamp my files when I hear of a comment like Tom Hammond's. Since I missed Tom Hammond's comment and I've probably missed others. But I'll try to listen more carefully.OTOH, I also think some people "hype the hype," that is, say things like, "Everybody is always saying how Sasha is the greatest skater ever and that's so wrong!" Well, that's just silly. Not "everybody is always saying" that, but whoever does say it is wrong. And I'm sure there are print critics out there I've missed who say "She's the greatest!" which again I think is just silly. Sasha hasn't put down anything close to even a good record yet, much less the "greatest."
BTW, when I was talking about Sasha's LP I was comparing it to other LPs generally done today--like what was done or attempted on the GP circuit. In terms of jumps, true, the programs aren't difficult because at most she's done a six-triple program and she only hit her 3flutz/3t once and that was last season. But at Trophee Lalique her program was chuggy jam with tough combo spins, change edge spiral sequence, more difficult spirals than in her previous program, serpentine fw, two 3/2 combos and fw preceding every triple, and yes, I'd describe such a program as difficult for anybody. She faltered, but didn't fall, IIRC. But I agree, compared to what Tara could put down, there's no comparison. And compared to Michelle's consistency, again, no comparison.
I think the people who cry "possibly greatest ever" see flashes of brilliance in a very aesthetically pleasing package and get all carried away. Obviously I like Sasha's skating and I'd like to see her do better, but the way I see it, we know she ain't the greatest, ain't never gonna be the greatest, so if people who don't know any better or have an agenda say she is the greatest, we know they're wrong, so so what? We can't stop 'em from being stupid--and neither can Sasha.
Keep those Tom Hammond-type comments coming, Berthes Ghost. I promise I'll start a file
Rgirl
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