Sasha didn't have a clean program all season. She skated nice but she always had some kind of error and always 2 footed that last flip. I guess too many expectations. When everyone gives up and even some of her fans are then she will put it all out there. I think she can skate clean but can she do it with attack and fire. Her jumps looked the best I've seen but she was flat in her performance although she was beautiful.
Was Cohen's program too ambitious?
- Thread starter Ogre Mage
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2003
Description of a former industrial town her at worlds' site:
http://www.worlds2004.de/ww/en/pub/dortmund/aboutdortmund.htm
city tourism site:
http://www.city.dortmund.de/project/home/index.jsp
According to this site:
http://meteo.infospace.ru/wcarch/html/e_day_stn.sht?num=3816
it's 392 meters above sea level
from same site, Atlanta is 315 m a s l
http://www.worlds2004.de/ww/en/pub/dortmund/aboutdortmund.htm
city tourism site:
http://www.city.dortmund.de/project/home/index.jsp
According to this site:
http://meteo.infospace.ru/wcarch/html/e_day_stn.sht?num=3816
it's 392 meters above sea level
from same site, Atlanta is 315 m a s l
Thanks InsecureEdge and Berthes Ghost for correcting me on Dortumund's altitude. I usually find altitude's easily, but for some reason this time I had a heck of a time. I'm glad for all the skaters that the low altitude takes one potential problem out of the mix.
InsecueEdge, loved your description that "Sasha's prognosis to stand on the top of the podium will remain guarded, especially at Worlds where mistakes in any of the three phases are relatively costly." Indeed, some of us are analyzing her as if she were a patient with a baffling illness, which in a way is not far off the mark.
Also, your list of all Sasha's competitions with mistakes in bold makes it very clear where her problems lie and should put an end to the "was she or wasn't she" clean and in what areas. (BTW, I think you meant Trophee Lalique instead COR
.) Excellent evaluation all around.
But no matter what Sasha had done in the past, it's Robin Wager's job to look at her strengths and weaknesses and start to design a strategy to improve her consistency on her jumps. Of course Robin will no doubt look at tapes of Sasha from the fall, but I think in a way she's also got to look at her fresh. I don't know what effect the flu had on Sasha, but I do know that here in NY it's been the worst flu people have had in decades. Not an excuse for Sasha, just next year, Sasha, get your flu shot!
Interesting contributions all. What I'm getting as a general vibe is even those people who don't like Sasha's skating are frustrated with seeing a skater who is clearly unusually talented keep hitting the wall, so to speak. I felt that way about Scott Davis. He beat Brian Boitano at the '93 Nats and when he was on, he was something. Amazing spins, fastest since Ronnie Robertson. Then he started having inner ear problems and never regained the level of skating he needed to be an eligible. I think he ended up skating in a Disney on Ice show. I just hope Sasha doesn't have a problem like that where there's nothing you can do. OTOH, I think some skaters have something similar to mild dyslexia except it involves movement. Their mind tell them to do something but there's something lacking in the neurologic connections--to make it very simple. I certainly hope that's not the case. Until Sasha gets her technique under her, she won't have the freedom to really express herself and that's where skating gets exciting.
However, to Sasha's credit, she is the only skater besides Sarah to break out of the "Baby Ballerina" pack and it least win consistentely on the GP circuit even if she does make mistakes. In the last two years, on the GP circuit, she's won five golds including last season's GPF and two silvers, including a close one at '02 and this year's GPF. That's the best record of anyone in the GP series so I hope she puts that in it's proper perspective, that is, she needs to fix her habit of making mistakes, but she shouldn't get discouraged because she's very close. IMO, she's at the 95-98% level and that last 2 to 5% to make it to National and World champion are the hardest.
Keep at it Sasha and good luck with Robin Wagner.
Rgirl
BTW, this is not about Sasha beating Michelle. For me and I think most on this thread, it's about seeing a skater achieve her potential.
InsecueEdge, loved your description that "Sasha's prognosis to stand on the top of the podium will remain guarded, especially at Worlds where mistakes in any of the three phases are relatively costly." Indeed, some of us are analyzing her as if she were a patient with a baffling illness, which in a way is not far off the mark.
Also, your list of all Sasha's competitions with mistakes in bold makes it very clear where her problems lie and should put an end to the "was she or wasn't she" clean and in what areas. (BTW, I think you meant Trophee Lalique instead COR
.) Excellent evaluation all around.But no matter what Sasha had done in the past, it's Robin Wager's job to look at her strengths and weaknesses and start to design a strategy to improve her consistency on her jumps. Of course Robin will no doubt look at tapes of Sasha from the fall, but I think in a way she's also got to look at her fresh. I don't know what effect the flu had on Sasha, but I do know that here in NY it's been the worst flu people have had in decades. Not an excuse for Sasha, just next year, Sasha, get your flu shot!
Interesting contributions all. What I'm getting as a general vibe is even those people who don't like Sasha's skating are frustrated with seeing a skater who is clearly unusually talented keep hitting the wall, so to speak. I felt that way about Scott Davis. He beat Brian Boitano at the '93 Nats and when he was on, he was something. Amazing spins, fastest since Ronnie Robertson. Then he started having inner ear problems and never regained the level of skating he needed to be an eligible. I think he ended up skating in a Disney on Ice show. I just hope Sasha doesn't have a problem like that where there's nothing you can do. OTOH, I think some skaters have something similar to mild dyslexia except it involves movement. Their mind tell them to do something but there's something lacking in the neurologic connections--to make it very simple. I certainly hope that's not the case. Until Sasha gets her technique under her, she won't have the freedom to really express herself and that's where skating gets exciting.
However, to Sasha's credit, she is the only skater besides Sarah to break out of the "Baby Ballerina" pack and it least win consistentely on the GP circuit even if she does make mistakes. In the last two years, on the GP circuit, she's won five golds including last season's GPF and two silvers, including a close one at '02 and this year's GPF. That's the best record of anyone in the GP series so I hope she puts that in it's proper perspective, that is, she needs to fix her habit of making mistakes, but she shouldn't get discouraged because she's very close. IMO, she's at the 95-98% level and that last 2 to 5% to make it to National and World champion are the hardest.
Keep at it Sasha and good luck with Robin Wagner.
Rgirl
BTW, this is not about Sasha beating Michelle. For me and I think most on this thread, it's about seeing a skater achieve her potential.
One thing I noticed about all the jump problems: except for the loop at the cheesefest, all the falls and two-foots are on pick jumps: lutz, flip, toe.
And Sasha's 'lutz' isn't a flutz, it's a flip. She is never on the back outside edge at all, but goes right to the inside edge.
And Sasha's 'lutz' isn't a flutz, it's a flip. She is never on the back outside edge at all, but goes right to the inside edge.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Wow, Insecureedge, what a great post! That's why I read Golden Skate every day, I always learn something interesting.
I guess I am the only figure skating fan in the world who does not tear my hair and try to come up with an "explanation" when a skater falls or makes an error in an ambitious program. Setting aside Michelle, do we ever see anyone get through a program without a bobble or two? Should we expect to? If you never fall, then you are not trying hard enough stuff.
At the last track meet I saw, the winner in pole vaulting (my favorite event) missed twice at 19.5 feet, then cleared the bar and won. Yay! The winning performance was one out of three at that super-challenging mark.
So I am not worried about Sasha in this regard. Sometimes she skates cleanly and wins, sometimes she makes mistakes and wins anyway, sometimes she makes mistakes and leaves the door open for other competitors. That's sports. I really don't think that we will ever be able to say, if Sasha would just adopt this or that training technique, or switch to this or that coach, or tweak her programs thus and so, that she will be immune from the vicissitudes that make skating a sport.
Mathman
I guess I am the only figure skating fan in the world who does not tear my hair and try to come up with an "explanation" when a skater falls or makes an error in an ambitious program. Setting aside Michelle, do we ever see anyone get through a program without a bobble or two? Should we expect to? If you never fall, then you are not trying hard enough stuff.
At the last track meet I saw, the winner in pole vaulting (my favorite event) missed twice at 19.5 feet, then cleared the bar and won. Yay! The winning performance was one out of three at that super-challenging mark.
So I am not worried about Sasha in this regard. Sometimes she skates cleanly and wins, sometimes she makes mistakes and wins anyway, sometimes she makes mistakes and leaves the door open for other competitors. That's sports. I really don't think that we will ever be able to say, if Sasha would just adopt this or that training technique, or switch to this or that coach, or tweak her programs thus and so, that she will be immune from the vicissitudes that make skating a sport.
Mathman
I agree with the point of view that Sasha is really not such an inconsistent skater as many make her out to be. I think she's about average. Over the years I think people have gotten used to watching Kwan, who is the exception rather than the rule when it comes to consistancy. I think if you look at the field of skaters down through the years, even the champions, you will find that Kwan's type of consistency in putting together clean skates is highly unusual. In Canada we had a similar skater - Elvis Stojko - who spoiled us in the men's field. Previous champions such as Browning, Orser who were not any the less champions or great skaters couldn't match his unusual record. Even Yagudin, in his fantastic year culminating in the Olympic and World title rarely - if ever - skated an entirely clean (without a downgraded jump, wobbly landing or other bobble) competition - though he won them all.
I don't for a second think that Cohen's program was too ambitious. Watching it all season a small glitch here or there has not detracted from my enjoyment of it. Just as I wasn't clamouring for Yagudin to downgrade Man in the Iron Mask, neither would I want Cohen to set her sights lower.
I'm also somewhat surprised by the assertions of many that Cohen has yet to really establish herself as a champion skater. No, she hasn't won a gold medal at the U.S. nationals or worlds - yet - but she's hardly over the hill. And let's not forget or dismiss the many other championships she has won....the many GP events, not to mention the GPF. In any world class field, I doubt any skater would count her out of the running.
I don't for a second think that Cohen's program was too ambitious. Watching it all season a small glitch here or there has not detracted from my enjoyment of it. Just as I wasn't clamouring for Yagudin to downgrade Man in the Iron Mask, neither would I want Cohen to set her sights lower.
I'm also somewhat surprised by the assertions of many that Cohen has yet to really establish herself as a champion skater. No, she hasn't won a gold medal at the U.S. nationals or worlds - yet - but she's hardly over the hill. And let's not forget or dismiss the many other championships she has won....the many GP events, not to mention the GPF. In any world class field, I doubt any skater would count her out of the running.
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2003
If you look at her latest journal, she had shingles from about the 20th of december onward. Id say that it was a very ambitious program, as shingles tends to take your energy away from you. She said that she felt wiped out after the short.
I certainly do not doubt what Sasha has said about having shingles, but she was having awesome practices, and that didn't tire her out. Plus, she had increased her jump content. If being too tired was a problem, this, along with the great practices, would probably not have occurred.
Excellent points, Mathman and Rain. And thanks for the info, SkatePixie. It doesn't strike me as strange at all that she would write "ready for Nationals!" before and now reveal that she'd had shingles. If she'd written she had shingles before Nats, it would have been, "She's saying this so she'll have an excuse when she loses." Most athletes do not reveal their injuries or illnesses before a major competition. Michelle did not talk about her boot problems or broken toe prior to '98 Nats and the Olympics; Tara did not talk about her hip pain; Ilia Kulik didn't talk about his back injury; the list goes on and on. Afterwards, at various times, they spoke about their pre-event problems. They don't want to reveal any weaknesses to their competitors or to their fans. If an athlete has won and reveals that s/he had problems prior to the event, then it's "what a gutsy performance!" If an athlete hasn't won and talks about their pre-event problems, then it's "Yeah, sure! It's just an excuse!"
I know fans love journals and diaries, but I'd rather athletes not write them for publication. It's the old "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. I say mum's the word. Keep 'em guessing.
Rgirl
I know fans love journals and diaries, but I'd rather athletes not write them for publication. It's the old "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. I say mum's the word. Keep 'em guessing.
Rgirl
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2003
Sasha's consistency
Yes, I think Sasha is not that inconsistent compared to most elite skaters either. I think her consistency is about the same as Fumie or Shizuka, maybe a bit better. The problem is that her skating is so outstanding in other areas that people don't understand why her consistency is just average. Also, as you mentioned, Michelle is so unbelievably consistent that she makes almost anyone else look inconsistent by comparison. As Sasha is her main rival, she bears the brunt of these unfavorable comparisons.rain said:
Huh!!! The journalists tracked her down at Lake Arrowhead, and interviewed her about the toe prior to nationals, and olympics. She had to talk about it before before olys because of the interviews. She missed GPF because of the toe, so the journalist knew about it. Actually Michelle did not talk about the toe after the olympics
Re: Sasha's consistency
I think if we look at any elite skater we will see weaknesses even though their skating is outstanding in all other areas. Example from the past: Sarah had beautiful line and movement quality, so why couldn't she straighten her knee on her spiral? Shizuka has unrivaled flow, but until Richard Callaghan worked on it, her spiral sequence was choppy. It's better now, but a few years ago, Michelle was great in every aspect of her skating except spinning. She had slow spins and couldn't do a standard high turned out free leg layback. Her spins are faster now and the reason for the layback problem was an anatomical limitation so she (or Lori, I don't know who) came up with the "heart" layback. Fumie has incredible edging and speed, but her line is weak. These are just some examples but we could name every top skater in ever discipline and do the same thing. For Sasha, it's mainly consistency. True, most of these skaters have other problems too; but I'm just talking about the thing people seem to talk about most.
But I agree. Sasha LOOKS like she should be absolutely consistent and when she isn't, people try to analyze why forever. Some skaters are consistent because they have great jump technique, eg, Michelle. Other's go up and you think, "No way are they going to land that" yet they do. Todd Eldredge was known for having "cat feet" because most of the time he could land the most off-centered jumps you ever saw. Sarah too. Don't think I ever saw her fall. Doesn't mean they're not great skaters. If somebody could figure out what makes up consistency, believe me they'd bottle it and sell it.
Rgirl
Ogre Mage,Ogre Mage said:
I think if we look at any elite skater we will see weaknesses even though their skating is outstanding in all other areas. Example from the past: Sarah had beautiful line and movement quality, so why couldn't she straighten her knee on her spiral? Shizuka has unrivaled flow, but until Richard Callaghan worked on it, her spiral sequence was choppy. It's better now, but a few years ago, Michelle was great in every aspect of her skating except spinning. She had slow spins and couldn't do a standard high turned out free leg layback. Her spins are faster now and the reason for the layback problem was an anatomical limitation so she (or Lori, I don't know who) came up with the "heart" layback. Fumie has incredible edging and speed, but her line is weak. These are just some examples but we could name every top skater in ever discipline and do the same thing. For Sasha, it's mainly consistency. True, most of these skaters have other problems too; but I'm just talking about the thing people seem to talk about most.
But I agree. Sasha LOOKS like she should be absolutely consistent and when she isn't, people try to analyze why forever. Some skaters are consistent because they have great jump technique, eg, Michelle. Other's go up and you think, "No way are they going to land that" yet they do. Todd Eldredge was known for having "cat feet" because most of the time he could land the most off-centered jumps you ever saw. Sarah too. Don't think I ever saw her fall. Doesn't mean they're not great skaters. If somebody could figure out what makes up consistency, believe me they'd bottle it and sell it.
Rgirl
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
About Todd's "cat feet," Dick Button once said, after a particularly off-center jump, "You throw a cat out ugly, it still lands on its feet."
Also, despite Michelle's "unbelievable consistency," she falls sometimes, too. Ice is slippery. This season she fell at Campbells, she fell at the International Challenge, and she had a saved landing in the short at Nationals, until she finally brought it home in the long.
Mathman
Also, despite Michelle's "unbelievable consistency," she falls sometimes, too. Ice is slippery. This season she fell at Campbells, she fell at the International Challenge, and she had a saved landing in the short at Nationals, until she finally brought it home in the long.
Mathman
Wow! Nothing like cold hard numbers to drive home the point of just how truly difficult figure skating is. I think it would be interesting to do a statistical analysis of the number of times Michelle has fallen throughout her career. Even though I know you'd love spending hours of watching Michelle tapesMathman said:
, we could just make it Nationals, Worlds, and the Olympics. I can only remember her falling twice at Nationals and that was way back in '97 when she had the boot problems. Other than that, since '94, I don't think she's ever fallen at Nats. I'm sure others will know. At Worlds, I can't remember in '97 if she just fumbled, doubled, or fell in order for Tara to win the gold. Same with the second place finish to Butryskaya in '00, when Michelle was sick. Whatever the case, I bet no other skater comes close to Michelle's consistency and I also bet she lands close to 90% of her jumps in competition--especially if you do all competitions from '94/95 on. Whatever the percentage is, I still think it's amazing. Not even Yags or Plush is that consistent, though granted Michelle isn't trying quads, but still--amazing.Rgirl
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
Michelle...
...is so clearly an extrordinary competitor. It takes something really special that can't be bottled or sold to achieve what she does when the competition begins - so consistently over so many years. That quality is rare, and can't be denied regardless of whether one likes her skating or not at a fundamental level. (I DO like her skating along with many others...just pointing out a very unique quality that very few athletes ever achieve no matter how rawly talented they might be).
Wow.
DG
...is so clearly an extrordinary competitor. It takes something really special that can't be bottled or sold to achieve what she does when the competition begins - so consistently over so many years. That quality is rare, and can't be denied regardless of whether one likes her skating or not at a fundamental level. (I DO like her skating along with many others...just pointing out a very unique quality that very few athletes ever achieve no matter how rawly talented they might be).
Wow.
DG
Rgirl said:
She fell at 1999 Nats when she did Lamente D'Ariane for her LP. I think that's the time when Dick said something to the effect of other skaters falling is normal but when Michelle falls it's national news. She bounced down and right back up and laughed it off. She looked surprised as everyone else. I think she fell on the second 3 ltz.
Heather has a jump list on her MK site. If Mathman would like to do the statistical honors, I'll try to find the link.
Found it!
http://heatherw.com/mk/jumps.htm
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