How should ISU address potentially dangerous elements?

[el henry]

We have seen Adam's backflip at Worlds (or at least most of us have). Is it truly dangerous? What research is there? What should the ISU do?

Also, if concussion from falling on the head is a concern, what can the ISU do, if anything, about these accidents? In singles or in other disciplines.

I know that fellow GS poster @sisinka has done some research on this issue and I invite her to post here, since I have not done the research.

 

[Anna K.]

Ice is slippery. Are there any elements that are not potentially dangerous?

Just thinking.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Ice is slippery. Are there any elements that are not potentially dangerous?

Just thinking.

I saw a senior dance coach get stretchered off the ice once with a broken hip and a skull fracture. She had done what all skaters do at least once in their careers -- stepped onto the ice forgetting to remove her skate guards.

 

[Mathman]

My opinion is that the focus should be on pairs. Every athletic endeavor carries some risk of injury -- as does living your normal everyday life. Truly serious injuries, I believe, are very rare in singles skating and in ice dance. For the most part, when you crash into the boards you pick yourself up and go on witjh the program, ala Midori Ito.

But pairs is more like, say, trapese. Some regularly expected elements are inherent;ly scary. For one thing, in contrast to singles, in addition to managing your own part, there is also risk of getting hit in the head by a partner's skate in a side-by-side spin (doing it really close together gets extra GOE) or having your partner stumble on a bad chunk of ice while carrying you, helpless, in a extended position ten feet in the air, or just mis-managing the timing on a throw jump.

Ice dancers have to take care of their partners; too, but it seems like even in an aborted lift the team is almost always able to extricate themselves without medical calamity.

For singles, allowing back flips does seem like tempting fate. My opinion is that from the fans' perspective, the risk is not worth the reward. The reward is to see a cool move , while the risk is to see (or to hear about at the lower levels) a skater who broke his neck .(Will pairs teams be allowed to present side-by-side back flips if the element is approved for men and for women separately?)

 

[TontoK]

I think that a case can be made that any sport carries some risk. Gymnastics, combat sports, diving, marathon running - bad things can, and do, happen.

The issue is where is the dividing line? What steps are taken to mitigate risk to the athletes? Judging by the doping and abuse scandals that seem to be in the news almost daily, I don't think sports federations are too concerned about risk to athletes beyond mouthing platitudes.

Where would I draw the line? I don't know. Would I ban pair lifts and throws? No. Would I ban shooting live rounds from a six-shooter during a program to William Tell Overture? Yes. Would I ban a backflip? I'm not a fan of the move - it's too hackneyed. But I've decided I don't care enough about the element to even bother. If the penalty rule were gone and I were a judge, I'd neither reward nor penalize it - just pretend it didn't happen.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I think that a case can be made that any sport carries some risk. Gymnastics, combat sports, diving, marathon running - bad things can, and do, happen.

The issue is where is the dividing line? What steps are taken to mitigate risk to the athletes? Judging by the doping and abuse scandals that seem to be in the news almost daily, I don't think sports federations are too concerned about risk to athletes beyond mouthing platitudes.

Where would I draw the line? I don't know. Would I ban pair lifts and throws? No. Would I ban shooting live rounds from a six-shooter during a program to William Tell Overture? Yes. Would I ban a backflip? I'm not a fan of the move - it's too hackneyed. But I've decided I don't care enough about the element to even bother. If the penalty rule were gone and I were a judge, I'd neither reward nor penalize it - just pretend it didn't happen.

Agreed! Out of curiosity I Googled "what are the most dangerous competitive sports" and got an article titled The 20 Most Dangerous Sports in the World (that I can't persuade to be added here; It's in a blog called runnersathletics.com if anyone else can find it.) Granted, many are pretty exotic and unknown outside their own countries, but I was interested to see that cheerleading was included but no mention of any other aesthetic sport. My view is that the ISU can get all in a flutter and ban certain moves but that won't stop skaters from doing them, even if they have to go underground and do them outside of ISU competitions. There are a percentage of humans who are born risk-takers. They choose risky sports because they love the sensation of dangerous challenges.

My grandmother was a rider who competed in show jumping. My husband -- who couldn't watch me pair skate because it made him too nervous -- was a rock climber and occasional surfer (he died young of pancreatic cancer unrelated to his outdoors activities). My sons ski, and raced in two-man bobsled when they were younger. Wrap my family up in quilts and tuck them away somewhere safe and there will be no thanks from us. If someone told me I mustn't do twist lifts because I might get hurt, then if there's a dainty ladylike way for me to spit in their eye, I will.

Doping, physical and emotional abuse, and eating disorders that weaken the skater are far more important issues for the sport. Injuries are common in all activities, not just sports. My worst injury came from tripping while walking down stairs in high-heeled sandals.

Edit: In an article re using statistics with caution, the authors said you could make a case that the most dangerous competitive activity was chess. A chess player lost his balance, fell off his chair during a match, hit his head on the floor, and died of bleeding in the brain. Injuries recorded in the sport = 1. Fatalities from injuries = 1. 100% fatality rate in chess.

 

[el henry]

Does the fact that athletes by their nature will push the envelope mean that we don't have restrictions?

Some people will always drive fast. Always. Do we abolish speed limits?

 

[Mathman]

Would I ban shooting live rounds from a six-shooter during a program to William Tell Overture?

Alexsei Yagudin performed a version of his iconic Gladiator program on Stars on Ice in 2001, using two big knives as props. In one performance he cut himself and was visibly bleeding at the end of the performance.

[OT. In looking this up I discovered that in 2019 Yagudin served as United Nations ambassador to the 2019 European Games on behalf of Hiv/Aids. "Sport, in all its varieties, unites millions of people around the world and, as a UNAIDS Ambassador, I am absolutely convinced that an HIV status should not affect either the attitude towards a person or his ability to pursue his life plans."]

 

[Mathman]

The issue is where is the dividing line? What steps are taken to mitigate risk to the athletes? Judging by the doping and abuse scandals that seem to be in the news almost daily, I don't think sports federations are too concerned about risk to athletes beyond mouthing platitudes.

Personally, my concern is not so much about skaters at the world/Olympic level. Let Adam Fa do what he wants.
What I wish the ISU and national skating federations would do is work more closely with coaches at the the local level to provide guidance on a graded progression of skills for beginners, with a special caution against rushing children ahead by encouraging unsafe behavior.

I know, I know. Little boys (amd girls) will climb trees and fall t of them no matter what the adults around tham say. Still, as @el_henry posts above, the adults in the room have to do the best they can to promote safe activities for the children in their charge.

 

[lesnar001]

I'll admit my bias. I don't care for backflips. Never have, never will.
I can't recall any backflip that somehow didn't detract from the rest of the program for me.

If someone wants to do one when they are being introduced for an exhibition skate, or even in exuberance after a great competitive program, more power to them. But I just don't "get" them being used in a program.

I love Scott Hamilton and Kurt Browning's skating, but even with them I didn't enjoy the backflips.

 

[TontoK]

Does the fact that athletes by their nature will push the envelope mean that we don't have restrictions?

Some people will always drive fast. Always. Do we abolish speed limits?

People who speed (excessively) put innocents at risk. Whatever bad things I think of a backflip, I can't say that it does that.

It's a tricky proposition to try to limit the boundaries of sport. I'd bet that the injury rates involved with a 3A are higher than the injury rates associated with a 2A. So... do we ban them? And if so, why not go back to the single axel, which is safer still? That jump worked fine until Dick Button.

I echo @Mathman hopes that coaches have access to guidance regarding the appropriate technical advancement of young skaters. Does anyone more involved at the grassroots level of our sport have any information on that? How is it decided (and by whom), for example, when a young skater is ready to start training a 2A?

But I think I've found the solution to the backflip issue. In a free program, if you want to do it, fine. But it counts as a jumping pass. I don't know how technically difficult it is, but I suspect not all that hard in relation to a triple jump, so the base value would be relatively low.

 

[adhara]

During my break from competitive skating, I was a show skater. Think the sort of stuff you see at Disney or on cruise ships, though those were not the companies I was with. In my sphere, people do backflips all the time. I know over 15 skaters who perform backflips nightly.

They're all fine.

 

[Anna K.]

I saw a senior dance coach get stretchered off the ice once with a broken hip and a skull fracture. She had done what all skaters do at least once in their careers -- stepped onto the ice forgetting to remove her skate guards.

Nothing can replace personal caution and risk assessment. Just nothing.

People who speed (excessively) put innocents at risk. Whatever bad things I think of a backflip, I can't say that it does that.

Exactly. This is an individual choice. Nobody backflips in synchronized skating.
Apparently, backflips are not dangerous for Adam Siao Him Fa, Keegan Messing and dozens of other skaters who do them regularly in shows and/or training. Yes, I know, everything can happen; for example, an object can fall from the ceiling and knock them off balance. But the statistic possibility is minimal.

Can a backflip be dangerous for skaters who never tried them? I think yes. So I would suggest against rewarding backflips with points or making them mandatory in competitive skating. However, if a sufficiently trained skater uses a backflip as a transition, I see no other problem with that except possible edge violation.

 

[Arigato]

Steve Jobs started Apple at age 21.
Bill Gates started Microsoft at age 20.
Mark Zuckerberg started Facebook at age 19.


Children didn't start those companies, and it wasn't a child who made ISU history coming back from 19th place and getting on that podium after including a back flip in his program. If anything, the ISU has used Adam's back flip to promote figure skating on their Instagram and Twitter accounts beginning with his win at Europeans. If some people have a problem with Adam taking a 2-point deduction to do his back flip, I can only imagine what they thought of Jonny Moseley risking a medal to finish off the podium at the 2002 Olympics but changing the sport of freestyle skiing forever by doing his jump called, 'The Dinner Roll.' This is what sports are all about.

 

[Mathman]

I'd bet that the injury rates involved with a 3A are higher than the injury rates associated with a 2A. So... do we ban them? And if so, why not go back to the single axel, which is safer still? That jump worked fine until Dick Button..

But another way to look at it is this: I'd bet that there are a thousand times more falls by beginners trying to do their first single Axel than on all the triple Axels in the history of the world. To me, a single Axel looks pretty scary because of that face-first take-off. Ouch!

The jump that I am more concerned about is the triple loop. Too many repetions wear out the skater's hip joints, causing early retirements and future health problems.

As for the backflip, my impression is that anyone who can (a) skate and (b) do a backflip can (c) learn to do a backflip on ice. Scott Hamilton as a pro was advised by his handlers that it would be worth a million dollars to him if he could put a backflip into his show programs. "Sounds good to me," said Scott.

I think one thing that makes a bckflip not really so dangerous as it looks is that the preparation and takeoff is usually pretty secure.

 

[sisinka]

We have seen Adam's backflip at Worlds (or at least most of us have). Is it truly dangerous? What research is there? What should the ISU do?

Also, if concussion from falling on the head is a concern, what can the ISU do, if anything, about these accidents? In singles or in other disciplines.

I know that fellow GS poster @sisinka has done some research on this issue and I invite her to post here, since I have not done the research.

Thank you for invitation.

I believe that ISU wants to keep their athletes safe, so I think that they regularly (few times per season) evaluate necessary and unnecessary risks. What is pushing sport forward and what is just dangerous without bringing anything positive for development of this beautiful sport.

I would be glad if their opinions about this topic would be official and public. (Maybe they are, but I don't have the link...)

I would also be interested in how many doctors ISU cooperates with to reduce unnecessary risk of injuries. And how many times those doctors were evaluating ISU rules and Level features to decide about the level of risk for an athletes.

 

[sisinka]

I copy a part of the post from another Thread:

2024 Worlds: Men's thoughts and comments

. Maybe it was the time zone which made it impossible to watch the FS live, and watching after the fact all the emotions were kind of dulled. I'd assume that's it. Same for me. When I cannot watch live, it's not the same. That's why I get more into events in Asia and America and not so much...

www.goldenskate.com

BACK FLIP:

Personally what I mind on the first place...
Figure skating is a dangerous sport: acute and chronic injuries thanks to falls and body overloading, cut wounds from blades and so on. Still there are not that many craniocerebral traumas in comparison with other traumas. I am talking about craniocerebral traumas leadings to surgery (I don't mean brain concussions which are quite frequent).

(Warning - vulnerable and sensitive ones should rethink whether they will continue reading informations written below.)

1) Falls on the ice usually leads to injuries or at least to haematomas. You can fall on every part of your body, you can hit the board with any part of your body head including. You can fall on your back and then hit the ice with you head.

BUT there are just few elements which lead to DIRECT FALL ON THE HEAD. Which is my problem with back flip.

If you make mistake which will lead to bigger underrotation - the head will get the biggest blow.

We all remember October 2022 when Solene Mazingue fell directly on the head during the lift. Craniocerebral trauma...coma...an emergency craniotomy...titanium plates. She was happy one, she survived. And not only. She was able to speak, walk, she even came back on the ice.

Not every craniocerebral trauma has happy ending. Medicine is on high level, but there can be complications, prolonged recovery and partial recovery only. Not everybody learns to walk, speak, think in a way they did it in past. Some patients never learn it again. You can get seizures. And of course you have symptoms like in case of concussions - depression, headache, loss of concentration.

In 2005 Russian former skater Alexey Vasilevskiy was learning back flip for the show, he fell on his head and the rest of the story you already know from text above: craniocerebral trauma...an emergency craniotomy...titanium plates. I do remember that he needed to undergo another surgery after some time. Daniil Barantsev created funding to get money for his treatment. Another happy ending. He survived and came back on the ice. He is working as a coach (training Veronika Zhilina I believe).

In my opinion direct fall on head always means very high probability of craniocerebral surgery.

2) Direct fall on head may also lead to cervical fracture. Depends on the place of fracture and if the broken piece pressures spinal cord - surgery is sometimes needed as well. If spine cord is damaged you can finish with quadriparesis or quadriplegia, damage between C1 and C4 spinal cord segments - active breathing can be affected as well.

3) If back flip becomes eligible... big number of both junior and senior skaters will want to learn it. Because it is new element for competitions. The same thing happened with new element in Ice Dance - Choreographic Hydroblade. About one third of couples chose this element because it was innovative in free dance's elements.

So probably we will get quite big number of skaters (high level / low level) practising back flip. Which will probably increase the number of skaters with craniocerebral injuries.

4) If it becomes eligible skaters will execute back flip in the second half or at the end of the program. Even Adam's back flip at the end of the program was underrotated and landing was so so. Skaters are tired at the end of the program, their concentration and strengthening may go down...which increases a possibility of mistake in any element. And in such conditions they will attempt back flip...

5) Who is educated and qualified to teach back flip?

Coaches? I am almost sure that coaches are specialists as to spins / jumps / skating skills. But back flip?

Acrobats? But things are working differently on the ice than on the floor.

On ice acrobats? Skaters who perform back flips? Do they have coaching licence?

This point is not that important like previous points.

6) Back flip with bend knees is not elegant. But PLEASE, keep bend knees to avoid fall.

7) Like @moonvine mentioned...there is difference between unsupervised children practicing backflips on their own...and ISU making this element eligible for competive programs.

8) IF back flip will become eligible...and number of concussions and craniocerebral traumas will increase...what will ISU do next? Make it illegal again? How they would explain that they allowed performing the element?

 

[hope_skate]

I think, with such a potentially dangerous element like a backflip, the only way to ensure maximum compliant is through risk/reward mechanism. So, for example landing a dangerous element would give you less points than the penalty/deductions for not landing them i.e. penalty > points awarded. I understand it is still being done in exhibitions and even few Russian coaches have commented on getting elements such as the backflip unbanned by the ISU.

Note: I am new to the sport, so do forgive if I used the terminologies incorrectly

 

[LolaSkatesInJapan]

Ice is slippery. Are there any elements that are not potentially dangerous?

Just thinking.

I came to say the same thing and was pleased to see I'm not the only one. Even when one spent enough time mastering/perfecting basic technique and is properly equipped to perform very difficult elements after many, many years of practice has the risk of failing to execute and have as result a bad injury. Of course some sports carry more risks than others (my husband is a skier, practices freestyle skiing, as in jumping very high jumps, going over pipes, boxes and other elements while rotating and doing other dangerous skills, and when I go to be his cameraman, film him during his practice so he can watch and see what he can improve, my heart skips a beat when he falls, and when he comes to the rink to be my cameraman and film me during practice, he can't get over the level of precision on a thin blade that is required, the speed on slippery ice, the falls etc) but I'd say all sports carry a level of risk and the athletes practicing them are aware of this.

I'm more worried about the rather careless and loose rules for public skating sessions, when the rink becomes full of people who don't know how to skate (and I'm not talking figure skating, I'm talking balancing on both blades without excessive pronation, one foot after the other and glide) yet refuse to stay in the beginner designated area where those toys that one can skate with, to help with balance, are available, come out of this area and go to the rest of the rink only to have very ugly falls. Seeing the ambulance being called, blood on the ice and people badly hurt is common and it shouldn't be if helmets and body protection were mandatory to all guests who come to play with rental skates in the rinks and coming out of the beginner designated area was prohibited.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

If they aren't rewarding them with points, even if an element isn't illegal it isn't being encouraged. Beyond that I don't see what they can do.

I love Adam, but honestly his backflips aren't aesthetically pleasing and a little jarring. I don't think he gains any marks from them (and last season got 2 points deduction executing them), so at that point it's just his choice.

They should avoid making them an element with value or encouraging them, but if they want to do them they will do them (even if they don't in competition and just in practice/shows).