What do you like/not like about the ISU judging system?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

By the way, I would love to see a Roll Call vote of how he got re-elected (Just wondering how many Muslim judges are involved.)

 

[gkelly]

What about Michelle Kwan's "overtime" deductions at, I believe Worlds. Has anyone else in history ever received a deduction like that.

Yes, that is not especially uncommon.

Because all the base mark considerations and deductions were condensed together into just two marks under the old system, we usually didn't know about time deductions unless commentators chose to inform us. They usually didn't bother informing us unless it affected one of the favorites they thought the audience would be particularly interested in. Off the top of my head, I know that Eltsova & Bushkov and Emanuel Sandhu both got time deductions in their short programs at 1998 Worlds.

Under the new system, those deductions are clearly printed in the protocols. For example, Sasha Cohen got one for her short program at 2005 Worlds:
http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2005/WC05_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf
You can see that Sarah Meier got one too at that event.

Looking through the 2007 Worlds protocols, it seems that there were four time deductions: Karel Zelenka (short program); Igor Macypura (long); Susanna Pykio (short); Inoue/Baldwin (long)

 

[gkelly]

By the way, I would love to see a Roll Call vote of how he got re-elected (Just wondering how many Muslim judges are involved.)

WHAT?!?

 

[Mathman]

Have you read Sonia Biachetti's book revealing how he was elected president?

Yes, I have. But Cracked Ice is actually about the corruption of the sport by Cinquanta's predecessors before Speedy ever came along.

Here are some excepts from a review by Sandra Loosemore:

Bianchetti's thesis is that the Salt Lake City incident and other recent well-publicized episodes of corruption in the sport are only a continuation of what has gone on behind the scenes for decades.

Bianchetti reports, for example, that at her very first assignment in judging an ISU event, the 1964 European Championships, she was approached by Austrian ISU Council member Ernst Labin [later interim ISU President in 1967] who tried to influence her judging in favor of his country's skater. She also tells the story of the persistent bloc judging in the 1970's that led to the suspension of all judges from the Soviet Union in the 1977-78 season, and of continuing problems following the breakup of the Soviet Union in the 1990's.

She also reports shoddy financial and legal dealings of the ISU that she became aware of during her term as a council member. One story involves a large personal loan, without interest or a written contract, made by the ISU [approved by ISU President Olaf Poulsen] to Beat Häsler, who was then its general secretary. There's also the complicated saga of the ISU's former advertising contract with Gloria International, in which Bianchetti reports that a blatant attempt was made to bribe her.

Bianchetti takes some potshots at Ottavio Cinquanta, but in general he comes off lightly compared to her portraits of the previous generation of ISU leadership: Hasler, former president Olaf Poulsen, and former vice-president for figure skating Lawrence Demmy. In telling the story of how she was pushed out of her council position in 1992, Bianchetti portrays Cinquanta as a tool of the other three instead of as the villain of the piece.

Both Bianchetti and Loosemore have axes to grind, so we have to read carefully. Anyway, the last ISU President that Bianchetti has any use for was Jacques Favart, who served from 1967 to 1980. Favart was the last ISU President who was a figure skater. In 1980 the speedskaters took over, with Olaf Poulson (1980 to 1994), then Cinquanta.

The period when the ISU was ruled by the "Norwegian mafia" was also full of scandal, crooked judging and cronyism. This was during the presidencies of
Viktor Balck (1894-1924) and Ulrich Salchow (1925-1937).

 

[Mathman]

By the way, I would love to see a Roll Call vote of how he got re-elected.

At the 51st ISU Congress (Budapest, 2006) Mr. Cinquanta was re-elected "by acclamation." The ayes have it, LOL.

 

[Jo1]

Your anaysis of ":Cracked Ice" was indeed informative and accurate. I agree Mathman, that primarily the corruption was about before Cinquanta's rule. Hw- ever, is he better? His comtempt for the publiic (which was shown at SLC) is discusting and abominable!!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Yes, I have. But Cracked Ice is actually about the corruption of the sport by Cinquanta's predecessors before Speedy ever came along.

Here are some excepts from a review by Sandra Loosemore:Both Bianchetti and Loosemore have axes to grind, so we have to read carefully. Anyway, the last ISU President that Bianchetti has any use for was Jacques Favart, who served from 1967 to 1980. Favart was the last ISU President who was a figure skater. In 1980 the speedskaters took over, with Olaf Poulson (1980 to 1994), then Cinquanta.

What axis do they have to grind, particularly Loosemore? And what is wrong with Sonia's approval of an ex-President former skater?

The period when the ISU was ruled by the "Norwegian mafia" was also full of scandal, crooked judging and cronyism. This was during the presidencies of
Viktor Balck (1894-1924) and Ulrich Salchow (1925-1937).

As for Balk, I believe he was Swedish and his IOC allocades were even before Henie's time, and Salchow was also Swedish. What's the whole story of their fixing the games? for whom?

Joe

 

[Mathman]

What axes do they have to grind, particularly Loosemore? And what is wrong with Sonia's approval of an ex-President former skater?

Sonia Bianchetti came out on the losing end of a power struggle within the ISU and was kicked out (this is what her book is about.) Naturally she has no good feelings for the folks who kicked her out.

Sandra Loosemore was part of the Ron Pfenning, Jon Jackson, Sally Stapleford crew who tried to bring down the ISU by starting up the WSF after Salt Lake City, which resulted in a number of people being expelled from the ISU.

If you shoot at the king, don't miss.

Nothing wrong with Bianchetti liking a former president (Lavart) who was mostly on her side, and disliking the next guy (Poulson), who was her enemy. But this is just one side of the story. I'm sure if the other side wrote a book it would read differently.

As for Balk, I believe he was Swedish and his IOC allocades were even before Henie's time, and Salchow was also Swedish. What's the whole story of their fixing the games? for whom?

Yes, that's right, they were both Swedish. I should have said, the "Scandinavian mafia," LOL.

If you read the details of the history of figure skating in the first third of the twentieth century, it reads like a potboiler. For one thing, school figures were everything back then, so the judges could just give the prize to whoever they wanted to. Plus, in the earliest years of Balck's tenure, the host country usually supplied the majority of the judges, so naturally the home town guy always prevailed. Russian and Austrian skaters refused to skate in Sweden and vice versa, because it was a foregone conclusion. Even into the 30s, there was really no point in anyone showing up to skate against Sonia Henie, amid all the rumors of deal-making, bribes and threats against the judges.

I don't know, maybe none of this is actually true and corruption in figure skating began in 2002. But there seems to be a certain strench in the air throughout the whole history of the sport, especially with regard to the Olympics. I can't see that Cinquanta is any worse than anyone else.

 

[cocovica]

I like that the skaters who messed up the short can still win the medal with the good free skate...

I don't like that the programmes (In singles) looks almost the same... and woman from the dance do the biellman!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I believe 'Scandinavian Mafia' is your description. I can not see Sweden working with Norway especially during those years.

As regards the judging system and its many accusations of fixing, nothing ever was officially proved until SLC and which Speedy covered up the best he could with anonymous judging. And this is fact I would like and I believe so many others would like that something be done about bringing back the publication of the names of the judges to their scores. Once the individual judge has completed his full set of scores, he can show on TV his Ordinals for the top 3 Skaters and a full written report can come later. That would get the public more interested and at the same time, keep the judges weary of cheating.

It's time to clean up this business regardless of any historical references.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Just wondering how many Muslim judges are involved.

I looked it up. The ISU has two member federations from predomimently Muslim counties, Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan. There are two more member federations representing countries in which Muslims comprise the largest religious group (about half), Bosnia-Herzegovenia and Kazakhstan.

I believe that the figure skating federations in these countries are run by Russians (also true of Israel).

Thailand (95% Buddhist) is also an ISU member. I don't know how the average Thai feels about Speedy.

 

[dancindiva03]

I hate how anonymous the judging is. I hate how easy it is to prop up certain skaters. I hate how ice dance judging still sucks.

I do like that each element has a specific point value. But, assigning GOE is still so subjective.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I hate how anonymous the judging is. I hate how easy it is to prop up certain skaters. I hate how ice dance judging still sucks.

I do like that each element has a specific point value. But, assigning GOE is still so subjective.

Not just those items. there is also the reshuffling of the judges between the SP and the LP and separated by at least one day. Who knows if the 'new' judges on board haven't read the SP results that evening and know how to boost a favorite for the LP? - not necessarily politically.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

Not just those items. there is also the reshuffling of the judges between the SP and the LP and separated by at least one day. Who knows if the 'new' judges on board haven't read the SP results that evening and know how to boost a favorite for the LP? - not necessarily politically.

Joe

Is this a new thing - changing the panel of judges between the SP and LP? Was it just last season becuase i remember checking this only a couple of years ago and seeing that all judges who judges the SP also judged the LP and the first time i heard of this not happening was this past season.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Is this a new thing - changing the panel of judges between the SP and LP? Was it just last season becuase i remember checking this only a couple of years ago and seeing that all judges who judges the SP also judged the LP and the first time i heard of this not happening was this past season.Ant

I was also under that impression until someone said they do reshuffle the draw for the LP. Maybe we can now get a definitive answer to this question. Anyone?

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Is this a new thing - changing the panel of judges between the SP and LP? Was it just last season becuase i remember checking this only a couple of years ago and seeing that all judges who judges the SP also judged the LP and the first time i heard of this not happening was this past season.

Yes, I think that's right. It was a new procedure last year. I guess the idea is to lessen the chance of a particular voting bloc dominating both the SP and the LP. (?)

Not just those items. there is also the reshuffling of the judges between the SP and the LP and separated by at least one day. Who knows if the 'new' judges on board haven't read the SP results that evening and know how to boost a favorite for the LP? - not necessarily politically.

I'm not sure what the nature of this complaint is. If they kept the same 'old' judges, they, too, would know what the SP results were. (?)

 

[berryblast]

I like a good deal of the overall concept. That is, each element having a base value with opportunity to move up or down with GOE - it gives the skaters at least some sort of standard or idea of what to expect (again, I'm talking concept, not necessarily what has actually happened). I also like that the technical score very explicitly includes more than just jumps- that spins, spirals, and step sequences are also given credit.

On the dislike side is I guess how some of this has ended up playing out. I think it's become more subjective than it was originally intended... but then again, I don't think it's possible to completely erase subjectivity, no matter what system is used. However, I'm in agreement that anonymous judging = bad idea.

On a completely different note, I really, really dislike the spiral requirement in pairs. If it isn't required in men's singles, why should pairs have to do it? I know that there are some very flexible men in skating and some not-so-flexible ladies, but in general, when I watch a pairs spiral sequence, it tends to look like the man is struggling at his max and the lady isn't stretching to her full ability (so as to match her partner). Not saying that this happens across the board, but it seems more often than not, and I guess it's just a pet peeve of mine.

 

[gkelly]

On a completely different note, I really, really dislike the spiral requirement in pairs. If it isn't required in men's singles, why should pairs have to do it?

Spirals have always been required in pairs. Before throws were added to the short program in the late 90s, pairs SPs had both spiral and step sequences every year -- now they alternate.

 

[berryblast]

Spirals have always been required in pairs. Before throws were added to the short program in the late 90s, pairs SPs had both spiral and step sequences every year -- now they alternate.

Ahh, gotcha. I took a few years off from following skating closely, and before that, I was too young/careless to really look at the requirements, etc. You learn something new every day. :yes: (Still don't like it, though!)

 

[morninglight]

On a completely different note, I really, really dislike the spiral requirement in pairs. If it isn't required in men's singles, why should pairs have to do it? I know that there are some very flexible men in skating and some not-so-flexible ladies, but in general, when I watch a pairs spiral sequence, it tends to look like the man is struggling at his max and the lady isn't stretching to her full ability (so as to match her partner). Not saying that this happens across the board, but it seems more often than not, and I guess it's just a pet peeve of mine.

Spirals have always been required in pairs. Before throws were added to the short program in the late 90s, pairs SPs had both spiral and step sequences every year -- now they alternate.

I agree with berryblast! Spiral sequences in pairs are not always pleasant to watch!

I would also appreciate it if ladies could choose not to do spiral. Some ladies are not really flexible. In such cases, I would find it much more fun to watch two step sequences than one painful spiral sequence and one step sequence!