What does Akiko need to do.....?

[prettykeys]

2008 Worlds, I don't know about Kostner. Yes, she had a very underwhelming FS. But I recall having no doubt in my mind that Mao deserved Gold at that competition.

Besides the fact that this thread is supposed to be more about Akiko and less about what skaters deserved to have been shot down in 2008 :frown2:--in all fairness, YuNa has been propped up a little too, a few times. So let's just share the wealth and move on from 2008?

Why would you come into this thread and down-talk Mao with hardly a word about Akiko? It's just uncouth. :disapp:

 

[Figure88]

Well, this thread isn't primarily about Akiko. I'm assuming the threadstarter's purpose was to point out that Akiko should have placed first ahead of both Ando and Kim and the only reason she didn't do so was because of the skaters' reputation points etc. As such, the thread is about the other skater's performances as well. I only brought up the 2008 WC to point out that in the past, top skaters have been underscored as well.

About MKFS's question about placement, I forgot to add that Mao has a history of performing unclean jumps, namely under-rotating, taking off at the wrong edge etc, though her program may seem clean compared to more noticeable mistakes by Kim at WC. I thought the commentary on this video was quite interesting. It's the same LP program performed at GPF. It doesn't seem like the judges took major deductions since Mao still posted a top score:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYJ_mG6Qvno

 

[Blades of Passion]

The placement at 2008 Worlds was a disgrace.

Mao clearly won the SP but her Spiral was only "level 1" (not really), so Kostner led that segment of the competition.

And then in the LP Kostner had an incredibly sloppy performance but still was marked as 2nd best on the night. She made mistakes on every single jumping pass except for the opening 3Flip-3Toe-2Loop:

3Lutz ---> scratchy landing + a hand down
3Flip ---> fell out
3Loop ---> cautious landing, with her arms and free leg out of position
2Axel-3Toe ---> it's questionable if the 3Toe was sufficiently rotated and the landing was scratchy + a hand down
3Sal-2Toe ---> tight landing on the Sal and then barely hangs on to the toeloop, basically falling out of it
2Axel ---> landed on the inside edge, causing the landing to waver

I would have had it as:

SP:

1. Mao
2. Kostner
3. Nakano
4. Yu-Na

LP:

1. Nakano
2. Mao
3. Yu-Na
4. Kostner

Overall:

1. Mao
2. Nakano
3. Yu-Na
4. Kostner

 

[janetfan]

1. Mao
2. Nakano
3. Yu-Na
4. Kostner

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on 2008 Worlds BOP.

I think I agree and most definitely think Caro should have been 4th.

Can you tell me how you would have placed the Ladies at the '09 GPF?

Do you agree with the results and placements in the SP and LP?
And of course the final placement?

 

[MKFSfan]

I'm not BofP but I can say I think Akiko should've scored higher in the PCS, let's just say she deserved a 60. In that case, she would've won the LP, had a total score of 181.12 and still won the Bronze medal overall due to a not so great SP. MAYBE we could boost her PCS in the SP to 30, an additional 3 points overall, but that would still have her 3rd overall after the LP. ((Yu-Na's total score was 188.86 and Miki's was 185.94.))

So...I do think the final standings are correct, I just think Akiko deserved higher PCS marks.

 

[silverlake22]

I'm not BofP but I can say I think Akiko should've scored higher in the PCS, let's just say she deserved a 60. In that case, she would've won the LP, had a total score of 181.12 and still won the Bronze medal overall due to a not so great SP. MAYBE we could boost her PCS in the SP to 30, an additional 3 points overall, but that would still have her 3rd overall after the LP. ((Yu-Na's total score was 188.86 and Miki's was 185.94.))

So...I do think the final standings are correct, I just think Akiko deserved higher PCS marks.

I think judges save high PCS for the last skaters and because Akiko went toward the beginning in both the short and free at the GPF they were probably just waiting to see how everyone else did

 

[janetfan]

I think judges save high PCS for the last skaters and because Akiko went toward the beginning in both the short and free at the GPF they were probably just waiting to see how everyone else did

Are you sure about that?

Maybe someone else can explain how that would be against the rules of the current scoring system............

ETA: and feel free to take a few swipes at 6.0

 

[Blades of Passion]

I would have had the final standings at the GPF as:

1. Yu-Na
2. Akiko
3. Miki

Miki's PCS were too high and Akiko's MUCH too low. Akiko should have placed 1st in the Long Program as well.

 

[janetfan]

I would have had the final standings at the GPF as:

1. Yu-Na
2. Akiko
3. Miki

Miki's PCS were too high and Akiko's MUCH too low. Akiko should have placed 1st in the Long Program as well.

Thankyou BOP.

I agree and Akiko should have locked up a place on the Japanese Olympic team had the judges scored the LP more competently.

 

[museksk8r]

What I don't understand is why doesn't JSF grant Olympic spots to ALL Grand Prix Final medalists instead of only singling out the highest finisher? It really is a shame all of Miki, Mao, Akiko, and Yukari can't go. I wish 1 was not being left behind.

 

[MKFSfan]

Because the GPF isn't the only way to measure how the skaters' match up for the team. Look at the US Ladies, for example. Rachael and Alissa had tougher assignments and totaled higher scores than Ashley, yet Ashley made the Final. I can see reason to place her on the team had she medaled but to gove all Final participants a spot is silly. What if Yukari had made it to the Final as well and then Mao skated lights out at Nationals, landing all her jumps and garnering huge scores . Should she not be considered?

As for Akikio Vs Miki at the Finals and the PCS marks...The judges do watch the practices and they are aware of what each skater plans to do as far as jump layouts, spins, etc. So, even though it's not right to "save" marks, you can't tell me that what Akiko had planned would have deserved in the mid 60's when you know the big guns are coming, with 3/3's and better spins and higher levels. I think if clean, Akiko is capable of a low 60 score (she has lower levels on non-jump elements and she does a 3lp for her solo triple, so she'd need to be absolutely perfect to break 60). Akiko is a lovely skater and great performer. She is steadily rising, and her PCS reflects that. I agree it's not fair if Miki beats her based solely on reputation or even skate order, but I do think Miki had a decent Final, her PCS marks were on the high side, but I don't know if Akiko could've overtaken her overall when you take into consideration the SP. I don't think Miki deserved to beat her in the LP, but I don't think she was gifted the 11+ points it would've taken Akiko to beat her. I do think it should've been closer, and that Akiko should've been at least 2nd if not 1st in the LP.

 

[Figure88]

^Yes, I would agree here. Akiko is a lovely skater in her own right but she didn't really show the capability to perform a complicated program that would put her in the company of top skaters Ando or Kim, both of whom are can pull of 3-3's, great lutzes etc. Although her jumps were clean, they were sort of "dumbed" down to what she was only capable of. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but she should have added a 3-3 or triple axle somewhere if she wanted to show her skating was same league as the top ladies. Another reason the LP didn't particularly click for me was the music selection. How many times have ladies interpreted WSS? *yawn* I think she should have attempted something more original at least to garner creativity points. I thought Ando's program was at least more interesting just for the Cleopatra theme and the fact that she used non-conventional music.

 

[museksk8r]

I can see reason to place her on the team had she medaled but to gove all Final participants a spot is silly. What if Yukari had made it to the Final as well and then Mao skated lights out at Nationals, landing all her jumps and garnering huge scores . Should she not be considered?

I specifically stated Grand Prix Final "medalists", not participants, and Akiko did medal, just as Miki did.

 

[MKFSfan]

In either case, I still think it is pointless to award Oly team spots to all GPF medalists for the same reasons I mentioned before. Who knows how Mao or Yukari or even Fumie would've done had they been at GPF as well. I can see reason for highest finisher, but not all podium finishers.

This is why I am glad/hopeful USFSA is going to take the GP events into consideration when choosing the team. Even if Ashley had medaled, I don't think she is necessarily the best candidate for the Oly team, but she certainly deserves consideration.

 

[gkelly]

I think judges save high PCS for the last skaters and because Akiko went toward the beginning in both the short and free at the GPF they were probably just waiting to see how everyone else did

Are you sure about that?

Maybe someone else can explain how that would be against the rules of the current scoring system............

ETA: and feel free to take a few swipes at 6.0

There was never any rule requiring judges to save high marks for later skaters in any judging system.

In the 6.0 system, it was necessary to leave enough room to place all the skaters.

So if you saw this or this from the 2nd skater in the short program skater order with 35 or 28 skaters yet to skate, they weren't going to get 5.9/5.9; that only leaves room for at most 3 more skaters above them. But those performances did get some 5.9s and did place 2nd and 1st in those respective SPs.

At a Grand Prix final with only 6 skaters, it's not necessary to leave room for more than 5 more skaters.

In the IJS, no one ever gets 10s (a couple of enthusiastic judges at this year's Skate Canada aside), and certainly not for all five components from the same judge, so there's always plenty of room at the top. Also, it's not a comparative system the way 6.0 judging was. So if six skaters are similarly excellent, there would be no problem with a judge giving them similar or even identical high marks.

In practice, judges may perceive greater excellence from skaters who have often demonstrated it in the past than from newcomers with whom they're less familiar. Not that they're intentionally trying to hold up the favorites or hold down the challengers, but that to some degree they see what they expect to see and mark accordingly.

On the other hand, I think fans tend to root for underdogs and get excited about refreshingly good performances from skaters they're not already tired of seeing at the top. And may overvalue clean or enthusiastic performances but not perceive finer details of basic skating quality.

There may be some of both going on here.

 

[christinaskater]

I have to add that Akiko's SP was beautiful!

I think she can have a better costume and it will all be set!

She has it all!

I think she should make her Dark Eyes LP last year her SP instead and get a really beautiful costume.

I think a really stunning costume would also help her in the LP!


With the spins a few adjustments in some of her positions and it's perfect

The jumps are beautiful , more height and flow on the landings will also help her


(a friend of mine said she looks really beautiful, but she needs to go to the dentist to fix her teeth, because if her teeth are fixed she would also feel more confident. My friend who has been a skating fan said amazing musicality would not guarantee to make your PCS high, you also need to look and feel gorgeous about yourself and that he believes would help Akiko)

Certain suggestions from my friend would be change in hair color, probably a light brown to reddish brown color.


All in all, she has the makings of a super champion!


Her music WSS is absolutely stunning, yes it's been performed a lot of times, but no one skated to it and made it simply special than Akiko.

 

[jenaj]

I have to add that Akiko's SP was beautiful!

I think she can have a better costume and it will all be set!

She has it all!

I think she should make her Dark Eyes LP last year her SP instead and get a really beautiful costume.

I think a really stunning costume would also help her in the LP!


With the spins a few adjustments in some of her positions and it's perfect

The jumps are beautiful , more height and flow on the landings will also help her


(a friend of mine said she looks really beautiful, but she needs to go to the dentist to fix her teeth, because if her teeth are fixed she would also feel more confident. My friend who has been a skating fan said amazing musicality would not guarantee to make your PCS high, you also need to look and feel gorgeous about yourself and that he believes would help Akiko)

Certain suggestions from my friend would be change in hair color, probably a light brown to reddish brown color.


All in all, she has the makings of a super champion!


Her music WSS is absolutely stunning, yes it's been performed a lot of times, but no one skated to it and made it simply special than Akiko.

I think all she has to do is to get rid of the boot covers.

 

[KayMil01]

I would change her final spin at the end of her program with a different, stronger position in the spin, because the music at the end of her program is strong, and her spin, is not. Otherwise I like the program.

 

[Figure88]

Very wierd scoring if you ask me. As far as ranking, I believe it could have been a toss up as to who should have won the gold with no clear winner. But I might change my opinion after analyzing each performance more closely.

Okay, I'm not an expert on the scoring and I don't want to rehash argument, but just to follow through on the question about placement, I found this interesting article that re-analyzes the scoring and placement for the 2008 Worlds. Nagano probably had one of the cleanest performances. However, she only had a 3F-2T as a combo in the short and her triple jumps in the FS received DG. That's the reason she finished off the podium.

http://figureskating.about.com/od/competition1/a/worldssonia_2.htm

You might agree or disagree with the article, but I do think that Kim at least deserved a silver because except her for her the mistakes on the lutz and salchow, her triples in the long were cleanly executed while the leading ladies received either DG or edge calls on their jumps but their scores were not appropriately deducted.

 

[silverlake22]

Okay, I'm not an expert on the scoring and I don't want to rehash argument, but just to follow through on the question about placement, I found this interesting article that re-analyzes the scoring and placement for the 2008 Worlds. Nagano probably had one of the cleanest performances. However, she only had a 3F-2T as a combo in the short and her triple jumps in the FS received DG. That's the reason she finished off the podium.

http://figureskating.about.com/od/competition1/a/worldssonia_2.htm

You might agree or disagree with the article, but I do think that Kim at least deserved a silver because except her for her the mistakes on the lutz and salchow, her triples in the long were cleanly executed while the leading ladies received either DG or edge calls on their jumps but their scores were not appropriately deducted.

I totally agree. Mao did not really deserve to win with such a drastic fall, and Carolina should have definitely switched places with Yuna if not be even lower in the standings (maybe 4th or 5th). I actually think Yuna deserved to win, and not just because she's Yuna and she's amazing, but because Carolina had messy skates and Mao's fall was a really big, really hard fall. I didn't think she was going to get up after that, to be perfectly honest. She did skate beautifully otherwise but I'm still shocked she won