What does Akiko need to do.....?

[janetfan]

After watching the Ladies this season my favorite LP was this one skated by Akiko at the GPF:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqYLJlCIKtk

I enjoyed this performance very much but it still was only good for third place at the GPF.

I disagree - but wonder if others can point out why Akiko's LP marks were less than Yuna and Miki.

Here is Akiko's SP from the GPF. It only placed 5th and perhaps it was not as good as the others but for me it was still pretty interesting. Was it also undermarked?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtHMU6SZr9w&feature=PlayList&p=BBBA08CD88DC4518&index=5

I am curious - what does Akiko need to do to get higher marks?

 

[museksk8r]

I am curious - what does Akiko need to do to get higher marks?

Build consistency in the judges' eyes and minds to get her PCS marks up. Because her country is so strong, she has not had the opportunity to attend a senior Worlds yet and build up an international resume. This season is really the 1st time she's broken through in international competition with a win at Cup of China and the bronze medal at the GPF (but there was the disappointment at Skate Canada of not medaling), so she's just now starting to build up her case and momentum to the judges. Her scores will continue to build as long as her level of performance continues to build. I think she could be well on her way.

 

[MKFSfan]

To add to what museksk8r said-Akikio has room to improve technically as well.

Looking at what she did at the GPF, in the SP, her solo jump was a loop which was UR. Her layback spin was a level 2, spiral sequence was a level 3 (she got level 4 in the LP so it's possible) and straight line steps were level 2 (got level 3 in the LP).

In the LP, 3 of her 3 spins were level 3, 1 was level 4, and she received an edge call on her lutz. I really enjoyed her LP and think she deserved higher PCS marks. She had the highest TES mark of the night, but the 4th highest PCS mark. She was almost 9 points behind Yu-Na and Miki in PCS, yet almost 2 points ahead of Yu-Na in TES and 5 points ahead of Miki. Looking at the PCS components, the judges feel she needs to work on transitions and choreography. She got good performance marks, but what is crazy is it ranged from 6.00 to 8.25...???...

I think with more exposure and if she keeps performing as she has, her PCS will go up.

 

[prettykeys]

She got good performance marks, but what is crazy is it ranged from 6.00 to 8.25...???...

I think with more exposure and if she keeps performing as she has, her PCS will go up.

I noticed that too, a while back. She is significantly under-credited, and a lot of judges don't seem to know what to make of it when she does well. Her Performance deserved around 8.

I feel her LP could use slightly better Choreography and Interpretation, however. It started off interestingly, then for a while she mostly skated around doing jumps, and it came back around when she did her steps. Her SP had better C&I for sure.

 

[inside edge]

Build consistency in the judges' eyes and minds to get her PCS marks up. Because her country is so strong, she has not had the opportunity to attend a senior Worlds yet and build up an international resume. This season is really the 1st time she's broken through in international competition with a win at Cup of China and the bronze medal at the GPF (but there was the disappointment at Skate Canada of not medaling), so she's just now starting to build up her case and momentum to the judges. Her scores will continue to build as long as her level of performance continues to build. I think she could be well on her way.

ITA
Akiko Suzuki was a joy to wacth but she just lacks star presence to me.

 

[doug_log]

I love this skater. She expresses such joy. And she's smart with her jump layout: better to be safe and clean than to go for a 2A-3T (which she never got credit for) or to do 2 lutzes and draw attention to her edge calls.

Exposure to the judges will help her scores out. She should go to 4CCs and keep doing what she's been doing. By the time Vancouver comes around, she, Flatt, and Leonova will be waiting for the bigger names to crack.

I think it would be a mistake to tweak her programs by adding more difficult transitions, choreography, and jumps. Stay the course. It's working!

More realistically, I see her as a possible podium finisher at Worlds 2010.

 

[Tinymavy15]

She is not doing anything wrong. She is skating two programs which she knows she can do clean, but also going for the hard triples. The PCS will come when the judges see her consistently skating clean. If she skates like she did at the GPF at Nationals, then I would expect to see bigger scores at the olympics, unless they drop everybody else's scores by a few points so Queen Yu-na can have a larger margin of victory.

 

[silverlake22]

Akiko attempts 7 triples in her freeskate and attempts the hard triples too. This should help her out TES wise. Her PCS is kind of low but that will come in time, she is very musical and expressive and fast, I think they are just low now b/c she's a newby

 

[janetfan]

Akiko attempts 7 triples in her freeskate and attempts the hard triples too. This should help her out TES wise. Her PCS is kind of low but that will come in time, she is very musical and expressive and fast, I think they are just low now b/c she's a newby

Akiko, under the rules must be marked fairly and the same as the other skaters.

Is it fair and honest for judges to prop up the favorites when they are not skating their best and to mark down a lesser known skater to get a certain result?

Isn't that manipulating the results - and the same as cheating?

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Of course it's cheating. But not as much as you think.

 

[janetfan]

Of course it's cheating. But not as much as you think.

Yes it is - and it suggests that sponsors are paying for results into an anonymous system with no accountabilty.

We don't even know for sure if the scores from the "computer" are real and not manipulated since they are anonymous.

Somehow I think you believe Akiko at the least should have been placed ahead of Miki. Can you tell me how it is good for 24 year old Akiko - and skating in general - to have a result at an international event that appears to be fixed?

 

[Tonichelle]

the same guy who created the computer system for the ISU was also the second shooter on the grassy knoll...

and in his free time sells ocean front property in Arizona.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Sure.

There are two different points I think it's worth making. Firstly, people mention repeated exposure to the judges as something that will improve PCS. The thing that is neglected here is that repeated exposure to judges = more competing. We keep hearing about how skaters need to get their programs out to the judges to get feedback and improve them, so that's definitely a factor. But more than that, more competing means better skating. "Practice makes perfect" - right? Often, skaters IMPROVE as they gain a reputation, so what seems like lazy reputation judging is actually commenting on said improvements. So this doesn't seem like cheating to me. Watch Virtue/Moir's progression of PCS scores. They've definitely developed a reputation over the past few years (earned, I think we'd agree), but they've also improved.

So, was Akiko marked fairly? Like you, I thought she gave the long program of the ladies event. I haven't taken a really close look at the protocols though. A quick glance points out that she gets very little GOE for her elements (which I don't think is entirely out of line) and that there's a range of opinions about her PCS. It's the PCS that give me pause - and again, I don't know if it's incorrect application of COP's precepts or a correct application of flawed precepts (I know what you think I'd like to learn more about PCS before making that judgement

Finally, I don't think the result was fixed in the sense that outside forces pressured a certain ranking (a la SLC Pairs). That stated, I do think that the more entertaining programs being marked lower is a bad thing for perception of the sport as most people won't take the time to figure out the devil in the details (and some, including yourself?, believe that we shouldn't have to, so that's another kettle of fish), and the appearance that a result was fixed would deliver a pretty brutal blow to the sport (at the Olympics or any international event leading up to the Olympics)

 

[janetfan]

Sure.

There are two different points I think it's worth making. Firstly, people mention repeated exposure to the judges as something that will improve PCS. The thing that is neglected here is that repeated exposure to judges = more competing. We keep hearing about how skaters need to get their programs out to the judges to get feedback and improve them, so that's definitely a factor. But more than that, more competing means better skating. "Practice makes perfect" - right? Often, skaters IMPROVE as they gain a reputation, so what seems like lazy reputation judging is actually commenting on said improvements. So this doesn't seem like cheating to me. Watch Virtue/Moir's progression of PCS scores. They've definitely developed a reputation over the past few years (earned, I think we'd agree), but they've also improved.

So, was Akiko marked fairly? Like you, I thought she gave the long program of the ladies event. I haven't taken a really close look at the protocols though. A quick glance points out that she gets very little GOE for her elements (which I don't think is entirely out of line) and that there's a range of opinions about her PCS. It's the PCS that give me pause - and again, I don't know if it's incorrect application of COP's precepts or a correct application of flawed precepts (I know what you think I'd like to learn more about PCS before making that judgement

Finally, I don't think the result was fixed in the sense that outside forces pressured a certain ranking (a la SLC Pairs). That stated, I do think that the more entertaining programs being marked lower is a bad thing for perception of the sport as most people won't take the time to figure out the devil in the details (and some, including yourself?, believe that we shouldn't have to, so that's another kettle of fish), and the appearance that a result was fixed would deliver a pretty brutal blow to the sport (at the Olympics or any international event leading up to the Olympics)

I think you make several good points.
I still disagree that in a "points" system that reputation should matter or is even relevant. If judges followed the rules of CoP the scoring would be be better and more fair.
Please let me know where the rules that allow "marking better known skaters higher" appear in the CoP manual?

I typically don't look at the marks as long as I think the podium is right and reflective of what I saw on the ice.

Several people on different topics have said they thought Akiko won the LP.
I think the scores and placement for the Ladies was wrong at the GPF so I did look at the scores. Akiko correctly won the technical score but I think she should have won it by more than she did.

The pcs were just silly. Akiko's program that night just sparkled - and she electrified the crowd. Sure it was in Japan, but she would have set off a Canadian, American or European crowd off too.

You don't win an event for only being the best received but other aspects of Akikos program were clearly superior that night. She won more than the jumps imo, but it is so easy to manipulate score with the pcs.

Her step sequence was clearly the best and the most musical. I thought her IN was superior to two skaters who were having an off night and let it show a little.

Part of the problem in scoring skating will always be subjective and I admit part of my preference for Akiko is subjective.

I would say this: I thought Akiko was sensational and the others mediocre.
They did not execute their programs as well and they did not match Akiko's spirit and fire presenting their programs.

I think there were reasons Akiko did not win and they have nothing to do with what happened on the ice.

Call it a conspiracy or whatever, but I don't like to see skating competitions so poorly judged. I don't think it is good for the sport.

I believe less in fairness and honesty after the GPF than I did before it.

And as far as the Olympics go - there has always been fixing and wheeling and dealing going on and in skating sometimes the bigger the prize the bigger the deception. It has always been that way and CoP unfortuantely has failed to make scoring more fair and is probably easier to manipulate than 6.0.

Consider this - if what we saw at the Ladies event of the GPF was instead what we saw at the Olympics - do you think it would cause a problem and maybe another "scandal." ?




__________________

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Consider this - if what we saw at the Ladies event of the GPF was instead what we saw at the Olympics - do you think it would cause a problem and maybe another "scandal." ?

Nope. Because Kim's the annointed one - she has the media support behind her. Suzuki is an underdog who no one as heard of. Was their an outrage when Witt outscored Ito in 1988 despite the latter blazing through a 7 triple program (or was it six). Was their a scandal when Kerrigan lost to Baiul? In both cases, the eventual gold medalists were media stars, Baiul for her story, Witt for her competitive vigour and attractiveness.

Salt Lake had public admission of cheating and a highly hyped media contender from N. America as the victim. That led to overstating the situation in the media and the ISU/IOC going into panic mode. It helped that the oft demonized Russians were the devils in this situation (and the angelic Canadians were the ones grievously robbed).

janetfan, I agree that reputation shouldn't matter. I'm arguing that the achievement of a reputation often goes hand in hand with improvements made as a skater. Skaters, as a rule, earn their reputation.

 

[janetfan]

Nope. Because Kim's the annointed one - she has the media support behind her. Suzuki is an underdog who no one as heard of. Was their an outrage when Witt outscored Ito in 1988 despite the latter blazing through a 7 triple program (or was it six). Was their a scandal when Kerrigan lost to Baiul? In both cases, the eventual gold medalists were media stars, Baiul for her story, Witt for her competitive vigour and attractiveness.

Salt Lake had public admission of cheating and a highly hyped media contender from N. America as the victim. That led to overstating the situation in the media and the ISU/IOC going into panic mode. It helped that the oft demonized Russians were the devils in this situation (and the angelic Canadians were the ones grievously robbed).

janetfan, I agree that reputation shouldn't matter. I'm arguing that the achievement of a reputation often goes hand in hand with improvements made as a skater. Skaters, as a rule, earn their reputation.

Thanks for your comments, and they make good sense even if I see a few points a little differently.

I keep hearing about Midori and '88 and did watch her LP 6 months ago.
But this was '88 and her LP means nothing without considering her marks in the school figures and SP.

I can't agree that Midori was a victim of Kat's reputation, or if she deserved a medal over Liz and Debi without seeing the marks for all three parts of the competition.

By the time the LP came around Midori may have already been eliminated and maybe she skated very well in the LP because the pressure was off.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Nope. Because Kim's the annointed one - she has the media support behind her. Suzuki is an underdog who no one as heard of. Was their an outrage when Witt outscored Ito in 1988 despite the latter blazing through a 7 triple program (or was it six). Was their a scandal when Kerrigan lost to Baiul? In both cases, the eventual gold medalists were media stars, Baiul for her story, Witt for her competitive vigour and attractiveness.

Right. Even If she falls twice the commentator will remind us how far ahead the rest of her skating is and how "it wil be close" there was outrage in salt lake because Sale and Pellietier were the cute western couple who would finally beat the Russians. And Sale almost throwing a fit when she learned they had not won.

 

[Tonichelle]

all Jamie did was cry. she wasn't the one pacing angrily back stage (give credit where it's due, that was David)

she finally had the skate of her life, she was dang near the best she'd ever been, she came back from a collision with Anton during the warm up to skate... it was an emotional night

everyone booing the results in the arena didn't help I'm sure.

 

[christinaskater]

Akiko is a late bloomer

but she is making her move

Yu-Na, Mao, Carolina, Joannie and MIki are the favorites

but Akiko is simply stunning!

For me she has the makings of a star,


I think the judges are also looking for more star power, improvement on costumes etc, maybe hair

But all in all she has it all!

She is improving immensely!


She is a girl who has magic in her skates like Michelle Kwan

She brings the audience and spell binds them with her journey of emotions!


She is one of the reasons why i love skating again


Seeing perfect programs skated with pure passion and emotion!

 

[Figure88]

If we're going into how certain skaters are favored over other others, don't forget that Kim was a victim too in the 2008 WC when she was missed 2nd place over Kostner despite skating with lesser mistakes.

Kostner in 2008 WC FS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9YrrFLsL84

Kim in 2008 WC FS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUpJ7g98eTM

Kim DID pay her dues through years of competing internationally and falling short because of underscoring or whatever reasons. It was only after she became world champion in 2009 that she became favorited so to speak by the media and others.