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Joesitz
Guest
What to do with 30+ year old skaters
It's time to think about this. I believe we are going see more of it.
It's time to think about this. I believe we are going see more of it.
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Pookie
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
I think the special system is a great idea. This would be a wonderful way for some of these skaters that still have that competitive fire and really don't have an outlet.
Oh for just a couple of really good pro competitions again. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":\">
I think the special system is a great idea. This would be a wonderful way for some of these skaters that still have that competitive fire and really don't have an outlet.
Oh for just a couple of really good pro competitions again. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":\">
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magentataupe
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
Special System.
Special System.
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rgirl181
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
System by age group, absolutely. In fact I think we even discussed this a long time ago and wondered why there wasn't one, but I think it's only now that eligibles can continue to make money and don't HAVE to go pro to make money that it's become a serious issue. I still want great ice shows like SOI, but I'd love to see Kurt Browning compete with Paul Wylie (if Wylie were still skating) in a serious way. I think the pros did that for a few years, but then they just became shows with scores and a "winner."
Rgirl
System by age group, absolutely. In fact I think we even discussed this a long time ago and wondered why there wasn't one, but I think it's only now that eligibles can continue to make money and don't HAVE to go pro to make money that it's become a serious issue. I still want great ice shows like SOI, but I'd love to see Kurt Browning compete with Paul Wylie (if Wylie were still skating) in a serious way. I think the pros did that for a few years, but then they just became shows with scores and a "winner."
Rgirl
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Joesitz
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
rGirl - I would love to see some interesting line-ups in Pro Skating. But if they are going to resort to giddy costumes and flamboyant choreography (which I believe belongs in SOI), then it will be a turn off not only for me but for others who are interested in sports. We don't turn the TV on for a giddy show. Ratings will go down again and that's that. I'm not alone in that feeling.
I know the young fans would love to see Kulic skate and dress silly and at the same time do a triple jump. I would like to see Kulic skate seriously and beat Browning as he would try to do in an international competition - not in an SOI advert!
I think you understand, I believe the present level of Pro Skating is not in the sport of figure skating, it is in the pleasing of young fans. Lots of sighs, screams, and more screams. The more giddy the routine, the more screams! Maybe the highe scores which is worse.
Joe
rGirl - I would love to see some interesting line-ups in Pro Skating. But if they are going to resort to giddy costumes and flamboyant choreography (which I believe belongs in SOI), then it will be a turn off not only for me but for others who are interested in sports. We don't turn the TV on for a giddy show. Ratings will go down again and that's that. I'm not alone in that feeling.
I know the young fans would love to see Kulic skate and dress silly and at the same time do a triple jump. I would like to see Kulic skate seriously and beat Browning as he would try to do in an international competition - not in an SOI advert!
I think you understand, I believe the present level of Pro Skating is not in the sport of figure skating, it is in the pleasing of young fans. Lots of sighs, screams, and more screams. The more giddy the routine, the more screams! Maybe the highe scores which is worse.
Joe
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rgirl181
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
Geez, Joe, chill, I was agreeing with you. I said I'd like to see serious competition for older skaters in a system according to age. We agree, right? I just added that I'd also like to continue to see ice shows like SOI. So what did I say that is so annoying to you? I know you hate pro skating--we all know Joe hates pro skating:lol: --but that's fine, you're entitled. If you want to bash it, bash it. I think you're making false generalizations by describing pro skating as designed for young fans (in fact the major demographic for COI and SOI are middle-aged, conservative women) and by reducing all pro skating to "flamboyant skating in giddy costumes," but that's the way you see it, even though you never watch it
BTW, please don't tell me what I think. True, I think some of pro skating is silly. But for the most part, at least with SOI and the most of the top skaters with COI, I think they do excellent exhibition pieces and more. I see a lot of things in SOI that I find very creative, interesting, and serious. I don't think it works as a competitive scene the way they have it, but I've said that many, many times. It doesn't mean I can't enjoy it for its entertainment and creative value. Bash pro skating all you want, but please don't tell me what I think of it. I prefer to speak for myself, in case you hadn't already noticed
Rgirl
Geez, Joe, chill, I was agreeing with you. I said I'd like to see serious competition for older skaters in a system according to age. We agree, right? I just added that I'd also like to continue to see ice shows like SOI. So what did I say that is so annoying to you? I know you hate pro skating--we all know Joe hates pro skating:lol: --but that's fine, you're entitled. If you want to bash it, bash it. I think you're making false generalizations by describing pro skating as designed for young fans (in fact the major demographic for COI and SOI are middle-aged, conservative women) and by reducing all pro skating to "flamboyant skating in giddy costumes," but that's the way you see it, even though you never watch it
BTW, please don't tell me what I think. True, I think some of pro skating is silly. But for the most part, at least with SOI and the most of the top skaters with COI, I think they do excellent exhibition pieces and more. I see a lot of things in SOI that I find very creative, interesting, and serious. I don't think it works as a competitive scene the way they have it, but I've said that many, many times. It doesn't mean I can't enjoy it for its entertainment and creative value. Bash pro skating all you want, but please don't tell me what I think of it. I prefer to speak for myself, in case you hadn't already noticed Rgirl
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Joesitz
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
rGirl - The:evil: with Pro Skating. Everyone knows I am a curmudgeon
. If there aint no medals involved, I8o don't see any point in going to watch a limited sporting event. (By the way, I'm just as bad with ballet.)
Joe
rGirl - The:evil: with Pro Skating. Everyone knows I am a curmudgeon
. If there aint no medals involved, I8o don't see any point in going to watch a limited sporting event. (By the way, I'm just as bad with ballet.)Joe
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Pookie
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
I think Pro comps started in a totally different manner from where they ended up, in my recollection. At the end, it was getting ridiculous. I think the judges passed out 10's just so they could hear the crowd scream. The number and type of events was just as silly. But they weren't always that way.
I would like for them to get a couple of good pro comps, like the one Dick Button produced. They could be almost as good as any other skating comp done correctly.
I think Pro comps started in a totally different manner from where they ended up, in my recollection. At the end, it was getting ridiculous. I think the judges passed out 10's just so they could hear the crowd scream. The number and type of events was just as silly. But they weren't always that way.
I would like for them to get a couple of good pro comps, like the one Dick Button produced. They could be almost as good as any other skating comp done correctly.
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Joesitz
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
Pookie - what I think they need is a few solid rules of no-no's! and a big purse to make them want to win and judges who are not influenced by the screaming audience.
If that happens, count me in to watch and maybe see a decrease in the interest of amateur skating.
Joe
Pookie - what I think they need is a few solid rules of no-no's! and a big purse to make them want to win and judges who are not influenced by the screaming audience.
If that happens, count me in to watch and maybe see a decrease in the interest of amateur skating.
Joe
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mathman444
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
I'm not so keen on the idea of special competitons for old geezers. Would this be like the senior circuit in golf? OK, maybe for old times' sake its fun to see Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer wheezing their way up the eighteeth fairway one more time. But if they could actually play any more, they'd still be on the real PGA tour.
I think that the reason pro competitons were so popular for a little while in the early nineties is that the pros used to be better that the amateurs. Kristi Yamaguchi was better in 1994 than either Nancy or Oksana. Scott Hamilton, Kurt Browning, Brian Orser, Brian Boitano -- all of these skaters were better in the first few years after they "went pro" than were any of the the Olympic elligibles that they left behind.
Actually, right now we have the same situation in pairs. If Shen and Zhou retire from eligible competition, then there will be three pairs, S&Z, Sale and Pelletier and Berezhnaya and Sikharilidze -- not to mention Ina and Zimmerman -- who are better than any of the remaining "amateurs." I think that that's the only way in which a pro competition could be anything more than an exhibition. Sports fans have become used to seeing the best. If you're not the best, bye-bye.
The biggest farce was the 1998 pro-am tour. Michelle (with the blockbuster you-can't-touch-this East of Eden) and Alexei Yagudin won every competition in a walk. Actually, these shows in the post-Olympic year were quite popular, despite the lack of any meaningful competition.
Mathman
I'm not so keen on the idea of special competitons for old geezers. Would this be like the senior circuit in golf? OK, maybe for old times' sake its fun to see Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer wheezing their way up the eighteeth fairway one more time. But if they could actually play any more, they'd still be on the real PGA tour.
I think that the reason pro competitons were so popular for a little while in the early nineties is that the pros used to be better that the amateurs. Kristi Yamaguchi was better in 1994 than either Nancy or Oksana. Scott Hamilton, Kurt Browning, Brian Orser, Brian Boitano -- all of these skaters were better in the first few years after they "went pro" than were any of the the Olympic elligibles that they left behind.
Actually, right now we have the same situation in pairs. If Shen and Zhou retire from eligible competition, then there will be three pairs, S&Z, Sale and Pelletier and Berezhnaya and Sikharilidze -- not to mention Ina and Zimmerman -- who are better than any of the remaining "amateurs." I think that that's the only way in which a pro competition could be anything more than an exhibition. Sports fans have become used to seeing the best. If you're not the best, bye-bye.
The biggest farce was the 1998 pro-am tour. Michelle (with the blockbuster you-can't-touch-this East of Eden) and Alexei Yagudin won every competition in a walk. Actually, these shows in the post-Olympic year were quite popular, despite the lack of any meaningful competition.
Mathman
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Pookie
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
I agree, Joe. I think we've had way enough fluff competitions for ratings.
I think there are enough 30+ skaters with enough competitive fire left to make for a good serious competition if there was one.
I agree, Joe. I think we've had way enough fluff competitions for ratings.
I think there are enough 30+ skaters with enough competitive fire left to make for a good serious competition if there was one.
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Pookie
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
Whoops, double post.
Whoops, double post.
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dlksk8fan
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
My opinion is that if you encourage skaters to stay eligible-<span style="color:blue;font-family:georgia;font-size:medium;">paying them lots of $$$$$$$$</span>-then you will see more and more skaters staying or coming back to eligilble skating. In the old days this was not a problem because when you were a amateur there were no big bucks, so you had to retire and turn professional. The lines of eligible and professional is all but gone. So I feel if you are competitive enough to compete with the young folk then why not? Why should you be discriminated against just because your over 30? In other sports they don't do that. As long as their technical skills are there why regulate them to "over-the-hill" competitions.
My opinion is that if you encourage skaters to stay eligible-<span style="color:blue;font-family:georgia;font-size:medium;">paying them lots of $$$$$$$$</span>-then you will see more and more skaters staying or coming back to eligilble skating. In the old days this was not a problem because when you were a amateur there were no big bucks, so you had to retire and turn professional. The lines of eligible and professional is all but gone. So I feel if you are competitive enough to compete with the young folk then why not? Why should you be discriminated against just because your over 30? In other sports they don't do that. As long as their technical skills are there why regulate them to "over-the-hill" competitions.
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rgirl181
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
The only situation where it makes a difference if you're pro or eligible is if you're a US skater and want to skate with SOI. The USFSA does not sanction SOI, so if you're a US skater and you skate with SOI, you lose your eligiblity. It's fine if you want to skate with COI, but not SOI. What's the difference? Politics and money, money and politics. I think it's stupid. You can skate with SOI and stay eligible if you skate for any other country. Only the USFSA has this dumb rule.
Joe,
GS Official Curmudgeon as Certified by Curmudgeon.com:lol: So you only like ballet when they compete for medals, right? Some day we're going to kidnap you, take you to a live performance of SOI, and arrange a "Clockwork Orange" viewing for you, sans the aversion therapy. Don't worry, though. In "Clockwork Orange," Malcolm MacDowell ended up back as his "normal" self at the end of the movie, so after a brief period of liking Kurt Browning's "Nyah," Kristi's "Bridge Over Troubled Water," and Ilia Kulik's "Rubberband Man" you will still be able to go back to barfing at the mere thought of pro skating:lol:
Mathman,
I don't think 30 or 35 in skating is "old geezer." But given the technical demands, there is no way a 30-yr-old can keep up with skaters in their late teens and early 20s. So the 30-somethings only do five triple programs and have more room for bringing back creative moves like Jill Trenary's one foot Axel into a 3sal, or Joe Sabovcik's tuck Axels. And to see mature skaters give mature performances, I think there would be an audience. Certainly the main focus will be on the young skaters, but I think there would be enough fan loyalty and interest to have a couple of good competitions a year. You tell me, if you had to choose between seeing Michelle compete at 32 in a 30-plus group, skate her best, and win, or seeing her try to compete against 20-year-olds, fall trying to do two 3/3s, and come in last, or not seeing her skate at all, which would you choose?
Rgirl
The only situation where it makes a difference if you're pro or eligible is if you're a US skater and want to skate with SOI. The USFSA does not sanction SOI, so if you're a US skater and you skate with SOI, you lose your eligiblity. It's fine if you want to skate with COI, but not SOI. What's the difference? Politics and money, money and politics. I think it's stupid. You can skate with SOI and stay eligible if you skate for any other country. Only the USFSA has this dumb rule.
Joe,
GS Official Curmudgeon as Certified by Curmudgeon.com:lol: So you only like ballet when they compete for medals, right?
Some day we're going to kidnap you, take you to a live performance of SOI, and arrange a "Clockwork Orange" viewing for you, sans the aversion therapy. Don't worry, though. In "Clockwork Orange," Malcolm MacDowell ended up back as his "normal" self at the end of the movie, so after a brief period of liking Kurt Browning's "Nyah," Kristi's "Bridge Over Troubled Water," and Ilia Kulik's "Rubberband Man" you will still be able to go back to barfing at the mere thought of pro skating:lol: Mathman,
I don't think 30 or 35 in skating is "old geezer." But given the technical demands, there is no way a 30-yr-old can keep up with skaters in their late teens and early 20s. So the 30-somethings only do five triple programs and have more room for bringing back creative moves like Jill Trenary's one foot Axel into a 3sal, or Joe Sabovcik's tuck Axels. And to see mature skaters give mature performances, I think there would be an audience. Certainly the main focus will be on the young skaters, but I think there would be enough fan loyalty and interest to have a couple of good competitions a year. You tell me, if you had to choose between seeing Michelle compete at 32 in a 30-plus group, skate her best, and win, or seeing her try to compete against 20-year-olds, fall trying to do two 3/3s, and come in last, or not seeing her skate at all, which would you choose?
Rgirl
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Joesitz
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
Really, rGirl - I am the Andy Rooney of Figure Skating's 60 Minutes.
Joe
Really, rGirl - I am the Andy Rooney of Figure Skating's 60 Minutes.
Joe
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mathman444
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
Rgirl, about Michelle at 32 I think I would go with (unstated) option #4 -- I would rather see Michelle skate in shows and exhibitions. She could skate all kinds of different programs -- five triples, why not? -- and not have to worry about whether there was a twenty-year old somewhere who could do two 3/3s and a 3Axel.
I just think that the purpose of a <em>competition</em> is to see who's the best.
But now that you've asked me point blank, well, yeah, I would love to see Michelle still competing at 32 against whomever.
OK, this last sentence contradicts everything I said before. No fair of you to throw Michelle into a discussion that is supposed to be logical.
Nevermind (sic).
MM
Rgirl, about Michelle at 32 I think I would go with (unstated) option #4 -- I would rather see Michelle skate in shows and exhibitions. She could skate all kinds of different programs -- five triples, why not? -- and not have to worry about whether there was a twenty-year old somewhere who could do two 3/3s and a 3Axel.
I just think that the purpose of a <em>competition</em> is to see who's the best.
But now that you've asked me point blank, well, yeah, I would love to see Michelle still competing at 32 against whomever.
OK, this last sentence contradicts everything I said before. No fair of you to throw Michelle into a discussion that is supposed to be logical.
Nevermind (sic).
MM
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rgirl181
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
Donna,
I would make it optional for skaters over 30 to compete according to an age-based system. If a skater over 30 wants to compete with the "kids," I think s/he should be able to--of course they'd have to pass the sectionals and maybe renew their senior level test or something like that. I see it like this: Let's say a 32-year-old Elvis still wants to compete at the World level. He could choose to compete with other 30 to 35-year-old (or whatever range is decided) men at their World championships and probably win, or he could choose to compete with the 15 to 30-yr-olds and probably place anywhere from 10th to 15th. As long as a skaters can make the World team for their country, they can compete with what I'll call the "first section." If they can't make it as a first section skater, they can go to the age group thing. Anyway, that's my general idea.
Joe,
I knew Andy Rooney was getting his best lines from somebody other than the "60 Minutes" writers:lol: BTW, there really is a curmudgeon.com. Great quotes from great curmudgeons, eg, "It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious." -- Oscar Wilde.
Mathman,
Michelle at 32 could still skate in shows and exhibitions, but if her competitive fires are still burning, she could also compete with Irina, Cupcake, Fumie, a finally injury-free Angela, etc. It's not an either/or situation in my mind. As with the example above, Michelle, or any skater, could also choose to compete with the 15 to 30-yr-olds. Her choice. But if she wanted, she could skate in her by then extremely successful "Michelle Kwan and Champions of Figure Skating" show in Las Vegas for six months out of the year; train and compete in the 30 to 40-yr-old Ladies Division (or whatever) Nationals and Worlds; and have the rest of the year to just hang with Bret and the kids. Unless of course she's also head of the new IFSU by then It could be almost a Neverland kind of life
Rgirl
Donna,
I would make it optional for skaters over 30 to compete according to an age-based system. If a skater over 30 wants to compete with the "kids," I think s/he should be able to--of course they'd have to pass the sectionals and maybe renew their senior level test or something like that. I see it like this: Let's say a 32-year-old Elvis still wants to compete at the World level. He could choose to compete with other 30 to 35-year-old (or whatever range is decided) men at their World championships and probably win, or he could choose to compete with the 15 to 30-yr-olds and probably place anywhere from 10th to 15th. As long as a skaters can make the World team for their country, they can compete with what I'll call the "first section." If they can't make it as a first section skater, they can go to the age group thing. Anyway, that's my general idea.
Joe,
I knew Andy Rooney was getting his best lines from somebody other than the "60 Minutes" writers:lol: BTW, there really is a curmudgeon.com. Great quotes from great curmudgeons, eg, "It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious." -- Oscar Wilde.
Mathman,
Michelle at 32 could still skate in shows and exhibitions, but if her competitive fires are still burning, she could also compete with Irina, Cupcake, Fumie, a finally injury-free Angela, etc. It's not an either/or situation in my mind. As with the example above, Michelle, or any skater, could also choose to compete with the 15 to 30-yr-olds. Her choice. But if she wanted, she could skate in her by then extremely successful "Michelle Kwan and Champions of Figure Skating" show in Las Vegas for six months out of the year; train and compete in the 30 to 40-yr-old Ladies Division (or whatever) Nationals and Worlds; and have the rest of the year to just hang with Bret and the kids. Unless of course she's also head of the new IFSU by then
It could be almost a Neverland kind of life Rgirl
J
Joesitz
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
I could go for a "30+ Competition" and the skaters in SOI would be eligible to compete but they would not be able to use their SOI routines - An automatic 1.5 deduction.
<span style="font-size:x-small;"><em>Youth! It's wasted on the young - Oscar Wilde</em></span>
Joe
I could go for a "30+ Competition" and the skaters in SOI would be eligible to compete but they would not be able to use their SOI routines - An automatic 1.5 deduction.
<span style="font-size:x-small;"><em>Youth! It's wasted on the young - Oscar Wilde</em></span>
Joe
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Pookie
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
Great ideas, rgirl and Joe. You should make a presentation to the WSF and sell them on the idea!
Great ideas, rgirl and Joe. You should make a presentation to the WSF and sell them on the idea!
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rgirl181
Guest
Re: What to do with 30+ year old skaters
Thanks, Pookie. But first Joe and I would have to decide if SOI skaters could use their SOI routines in 30+ competitions. I say if COI skaters can use their COI routines, SOI skaters should be able to use theirs, if they want. The only thing I would ban is anything in a clown outfit, anything in an Elvis outfit, or anything where somebody's shirt comes off--with an exception on the latter for Viktoria Volchkova
Rgirl
Thanks, Pookie. But first Joe and I would have to decide if SOI skaters could use their SOI routines in 30+ competitions. I say if COI skaters can use their COI routines, SOI skaters should be able to use theirs, if they want. The only thing I would ban is anything in a clown outfit, anything in an Elvis outfit, or anything where somebody's shirt comes off--with an exception on the latter for Viktoria Volchkova
Rgirl
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