What will You Be Looking for from Your Favorite Skaters?

[Mathman]

If you look at Miki Andos LP worlds 2007 you notice that she did the wrong take off and the comment on TV was: what are the judges going to do? This was a flip, not a lutz and she has already done one. Are they going to give her 0 point credit for the reply of the same jump? Than the result, she got a lutz, but it wasn't. She won the challenge, but hadn't she got credit, she hadn't won.

Even if the judges had been more severe in scoring the wrong edge Lutz, Miki still would have won. That's because both Ando and Asada did two flutzes, and got credit for them, so it all evened out.

Where Mao lost was the slight two-foot on her triple Axel (-1 GOE) and especially the downgrade on the 2A+3T<, where she lost 4 points or so.

 

[janetfan]

Most sports are using machines or computers instead of people though. Tennis uses the Hawk Eye, Hockey routinely checks goals with HD Cameras, Swimming uses a machine to see when the swimmer touched the wall, Gymnastics has slow-motion replays, Football has a challenge and review system in place. The list goes on and on. That's just where the sporting world is headed.

You are right and in many cases use of replay has certainly helped correct a bad call at a sporting event.
It is of interest that the world's most popular sport - football/soccer has resisted any use replay during the course of game. AFAIK, they use it only after games to review matters of unsportsmanlike conduct and red card reviews.
All other calls are made live by the referree and linesman.
Some say "ice is slippery" and one could also say "blades are thin." Some of these "edge calls" being determined by replay involve a less than a quarter of an inch. That is from a camera a fair distance away. A call has to be made quickly while the 900 other things CoP uses to determine a score are also being factored in. One former judge said it could be a good system - if the judges had about 60 -90 minutes minimum to determine a skaters score.

 

[Mathman]

BTW, aren't there any rules regarding what constitutes a proper and correct jump landing for flips and lutzes under CoP. And what about air positions? Rotations? And the approach to a jump? Surely the take-off edge doesn't count for 100% of a jumps marking criteria.

This is the crux of the debate. The criteria for what constitues proper landing, acceptable air position, completeness of rotations, etc., are exactly the same for the flip as for the Lutz.

So how does the tech specialist know which element to call? (Remember that the tech specialist's only responsibility is to call out what element he just saw. It is then up to the judges to score its quality.)

If the tech specialist calls "3Lz," what is he basing this call on?

The dictionary definition is, "a Lutz is a jump that takes off from the back outside edge."

However, the majority of skaters, coaches and skating officials say, no, in practice, there is considerably more to it than that. The entrance to a Lutz is indeed different from the entrance to a flip, so that the technical specialist does, after all, have a means of discriminating between a flutz (a flawed Lutz) and a flip.

GKelly and Antman are two active GS posters who have contributed details of this distinction. (I personally do not know enough about skating technique to add anything to the debate.)

 

[Mathman]

And if "serious" skaters care so much about this - why didn't I EVER HEAR such conversation until the last 4 years. Did Oksana UR? Did Kristi flutz? Did Boitano and Orser lip? Did Midori UR her 3A? Did Katerina ever UR? What about Linda, Roz, Dorothy, Janet and Peggy. I saw many of those skaters Live and also on TV. I never heard all this talk that only "true skating fans" care about...

Commentators back in the day did point out "cheated landings" (underrotations) and occasionally wrong edge take-offs (the word "flutz" is much older than the CoP.)

But as you say, they were much more likely to harp on errors on the landing -- double-footed landings, stepping out, hand down, even just taking a wide turn with a swinging free leg.

How the judges factored in all these things, nobody really knows (at least I don't. ) But the skaters were able to receive feedback from the judges about why they were marked down and what aspects of their skating they needed to work on.

I think one of the goals of the new judging system is that the ISU wanted to run a tighter ship. You should not get credit for a triple jump if you don't rotate three times, no matter how pretty you look doing it, and no matter how much the audience ooh's and ahh's.

You should not get credit for doing a sit spin if, to quote the latest clarification of the rules, "the bottom of the buttocks is not lower than the knee."

Should you get credit for a Lutz jump if you do not take off from the back outside edge?

Edited to add:

Did Kristi flutz?

No, no, a thousand times no!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dozwFZ5NoNs (first element)

Actually, this (Kristi's Olympic LP) is a good argument for slo-motion instant replay. In real time, it looks like she did flutz (she was not all the way on the back outside edge for most of her approach) But in stop frame, she has a perfect BOE at the moment of toe-off.

Midori Ito, in contrast, had one of the best Lutzes ever. But some people thought the leg wrap was unesthetic.

 

[janetfan]

But according to the rules what matters most is that her take off edge was correct.
She would not have gotten a top score from me, correct edge or not, with the wrap around leg. Others may feel differently.

 

[Mathman]

But according to the rules what matters most is that her take off edge was correct.

She would not have gotten a top score from me, correct edge or not, with the wrap around leg.

Are you speaking as a technical specialist or as a judge?

According to the present rules (not the rules in 1992), for the technical panel the take-off edge is either OK or else carries a specific penalty. Yes or no, then their job is done.

The judges are another story. They could withhold positive GOE for air position if they didn't like the wrapped leg.

Most discussion about the leg-wrap technique, however, is that it is just a "variant," not an error. It is hard to tell whether, for instance, Yukari Nakano suffers in GOE or PCSs because of this.

Caroline Zhang's high kick is not a penalizable error, either. But the judges could say -- eh, I just don't care for it -- and give her a 0 GOE, which is mostly what she gets. This puts Caroline at a severe disadvantage compared to Kim and Asada, who get positive GOEs on almost every element.

 

[janetfan]

Are you speaking as a technical specialist or as a judge?

According to the present rules (not the rules in 1992), for the technical panel the take-off edge is either OK or else carries a specific penalty. Yes or no, then their job is done.

The judges are another story. They could withhold positive GOE for air position if they didn't like the wrapped leg.

Most discussion about the leg-wrap technique, however, is that it is just a "variant," not an error. It is hard to tell whether, for instance, Yukari Nakano suffers in GOE or PCSs because of this.

Caroline Zhang's high kick is not a penalizable error, either. But the judges could say -- eh, I just don't care for it -- and give her a 0 GOE, which is mostly what she gets. This puts Caroline at a severe disadvantage compared to Kim and Asada, who get positive GOEs on almost every element.

Thanks for all of that information - and from your earlier posts too.
I was speaking as a fan - but if I was a judge it would have been a '92 Albertville 6.0 version of a judge. And I always liked Midori alot. If she had skated clean I probably would have placed her 1st in '92. But she didn't - so I could have forgiven her wrap around leg - and Kristi still would have been 1st. :yes:

 

[Medusa]

Caroline Zhang's high kick is not a penalizable error, either. But the judges could say -- eh, I just don't care for it -- and give her a 0 GOE, which is mostly what she gets. This puts Caroline at a severe disadvantage compared to Kim and Asada, who get positive GOEs on almost every element.

It is actually punishable; the COP-bible says

Poor take-off –1 to –2

And that mule-kick is definitely a poor take-off. On the other hand, poor air position isn't mentioned (therefore making the leg-wrap less of an issue than the mule-kick)

 

[seniorita]

what is mule kick?the thing that they raise their kicking foot too high?in ladies mostly?
i think I ll print and take the bible with me to study on vacations, should work under the sun thank you medusa!

 

[janetfan]

It is actually punishable; the COP-bible says

And that mule-kick is definitely a poor take-off. On the other hand, poor air position isn't mentioned (therefore making the leg-wrap less of an issue than the mule-kick)

When you are a judge you can vote anyway you like. :yes:
When I am a judge I will look hard and long at a wrap around leg.
But maybe I would get kicked off the panel and banned for "life" - but I think in the ISU bans are usually only a year or so - even for cheating.
I happen to like the mule kick. I think it is cute

 

[Medusa]

When you are a judge you can vote anyway you like. :yes:
When I am a judge I will look hard and long at a wrap around leg.

I happen to like the mule kick. I think it is cute

There is mule-kick and there is mule-kick. The likes of Galindo and Flatt also have / had a mule-kick, but it is not so pronounced. But Zhang's looks, especially from certain perspectives, as if she is dislocating her hip before the jump. That's not just ugly it could also be devastating to her health.

I want my dad. I can't open the apple sauce glass. I need a strong man - now!

 

[janetfan]

There is mule-kick and there is mule-kick. The likes of Galindo and Flatt also have / had a mule-kick, but it is not so pronounced. But Zhang's looks, especially from certain perspectives, as if she is dislocating her hip before the jump. That's not just ugly it could also be devastating to her health.

I want my dad. I can't open the apple sauce glass. I need a strong man - now!

OK, I was kidding. I think Caroline is cute - but I could live without such a pronounced entry into her lutz. Now Joe will get me for calling it a "lutz."
Put the apple sauce on the ground, turn around and give it a good mule kick. It will either open or shatter. Be careful

 

[seniorita]

The german apple sauce with potato pancakes..yammie
send some here!

i m watching caroline's video to find what is mule kick on her lutz, nobody bother to tell me:boohoo:

 

[Medusa]

Put the apple sauce on the ground, turn around and give it a good mule kick. It will either open or shatter. Be careful

Oh, you are so charming and helpful... I actually managed to open it, you have to keep it steady with your legs (I just had to take the trousers off, the glass kept slipping away with them on) and then open it with all the power you got.

Now Joe will get me for calling it a "lutz.

I am actually with Joe on this. If you can't do an edge jump from the outside edge - then don't! Do two Triple Flips, two Triple Rittbergers, one Triple Salchow, one Triple Toeloop and one or two Double Axels, depending on whether you can do a Triple-Triple or not. So many skaters don't have all 5 Triples, starting with Kim. It's no problem. The judging system should just be honest about it: a Flutz is a Flip with an unusual preperation. That would also get rid of all those edge-calls and edge-warnings, the strange GOE rules...

i m watching caroline's video to find what is mule kick on her lutz, nobody bother to tell me

Why are you writing this in small? You are actually talking about skating!

The mule kick is how she lifts her leg a 100° (compared to the other leg) and then hammers the toe of the leg into the ice in order to get the height for the jump.

 

[Mathman]

It is actually punishable; the COP-bible says

Poor take-off –1 to –2

And that mule-kick is definitely a poor take-off.

I don't think the mule kick counts as a "poor take off" according to the Bible.

(We are talking about the ISU rules, not our own personal preference about what is pleasing or not pleasing to the eye, right?)

This language was added just last year, if I am not mistaken. Unfortunately, it is hard to learn just what the rule-makers had in mind, unless we go to ISU judging seminars and the like.

However, we can look at the protocols. Caroline never gets a negative GOE on her jumps, except for obvious edge calls and underrotations. Since her jumps do not qualify for any of the positive GOE features (extraordinary height, superior flow in and out, etc.), I have to conclude that she is not being punished in GOE for her take-off technique.

On the other hand, poor air position isn't mentioned (therefore making the leg-wrap less of an issue than the mule-kick)

Strange as it seems, one of the bullets for positive GOE is "varied air position." (I think they mean something like a 'Tano.)

 

[seniorita]

Why are you writing this in small? You are actually talking about skating!

lol, i think i just confused your apple sauce's kick open with caroline 's kick mule !

 

[Mathman]

I am actually with Joe on this. If you can't do an edge jump from the outside edge - then don't! Do two Triple Flips, two Triple Rittbergers, one Triple Salchow, one Triple Toeloop and one or two Double Axels, depending on whether you can do a Triple-Triple or not. So many skaters don't have all 5 Triples, starting with Kim...

That's where the bonus for all six jumps would come in. If you gave a two-point bonus for doing at least a double of each type of jump, then a skater could show her mastery of "the complete jump vocabulary" by including a double Lutz.

This, with the extra two points, plus a little GOE, could bring in four points or more -- as much as a repeated triple toe.

The problem comes when a skater is allowed to rack up huge points with 2 flips and 2 flutzes per program.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

There is mule-kick and there is mule-kick. The likes of Galindo and Flatt also have / had a mule-kick, but it is not so pronounced. But Zhang's looks, especially from certain perspectives, as if she is dislocating her hip before the jump. That's not just ugly it could also be devastating to her health.

Didn't the Olympic Ladies Champion, Sara Hughes have a mule kick?

One should understand that toe-off jumps were invented to make edge jumps more correct since edge jumps often begin rotating on the ice and finish the jump on the landing. By toeing off, a skater restricts the rotating on the ice and the skater should have more perfect air rotations.

By mule kicking the toe-off, it does nothing for the attemped jump and it prevents the jumper from executing a far better jump.

One should just simply pass the free foot to the back of the skating foot without any fan fare, click the free foot into the ice ever so daintily and when the skating foot reaches the click, hold the click, then jump and rotate. It all happens in nanoseconds.

My advice to Caroline would be that she will make an easier and better jump.

Just watching YuNa, one can see the toe-off is executed in a stealthy manner which results not only in a higher jump, but one that travels in the air further.

 

[Alicja]

^^ From your post I sounds so easy! like 'ok, today I'll change my jump technique'... if only it was like this. As for Caroline I think she should probably rework her jumps but after the Olympics! She could do some minor corrections over the summer, but I'd hate to see her trying to fix everything in just one off-season and then loosing her toe-jumps altogether.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^ From your post I sounds so easy! like 'ok, today I'll change my jump technique'... if only it was like this. As for Caroline I think she should probably rework her jumps but after the Olympics! She could do some minor corrections over the summer, but I'd hate to see her trying to fix everything in just one off-season and then loosing her toe-jumps altogether.

It's never easy to change poor technique. It takes a lot of undoing of years of bad habits. Not unlike giving up smoking. However bad habits can be turned into good habits if and only if the skater wants that tremendous job. However, if he is doing well with poor technique, There is no point in trying to make it good.