What will You Be Looking for from Your Favorite Skaters?

[mskater93]

One should understand that toe-off jumps were invented to make edge jumps more correct since edge jumps often begin rotating on the ice and finish the jump on the landing. By toeing off, a skater restricts the rotating on the ice and the skater should have more perfect air rotations.

Actually, this is not technically true concerning toe assisted jumps. Toe assisted take off jumps (toe loop, flip, and Lutz) all have a pre-rotation component on the toe assist. If you look at a technically correct toe loop, it has the same "check mark" from the picking toe as you'd find at the end of a Salchow or loop take off (loop is more of a "flag" than a check mark, but still...). A bad toe loop turns into a "toe Axel" where the skater literally turns completely forward before taking off.

The flip has a pre-rotation component to it and a lot of coaches initially teach it with a pick in, pivot, and then jump and rotate the balance. A lot of really nice 3F take offs have a dropped picking foot so that it picks in 1/4 rotated already.

These are technically correct because you need to generate rotation from somewhere!

 

[merrybari]

It's never easy to change poor technique. It takes a lot of undoing of years of bad habits. Not unlike giving up smoking. However bad habits can be turned into good habits if and only if the skater wants that tremendous job. However, if he is doing well with poor technique, There is no point in trying to make it good.

Agreed with the caveat that even if a skater is doing well with poor technique, I think it'd be in his/her best interest to fix it. You never know what the judges/callers will decide to knit-pick next or when.

 

[Mathman]

Didn't the Olympic Ladies Champion, Sara Hughes have a mule kick?

Yes. Sasha does, too.

This is also called a "hammertoe." It is not so much the height of the free leg, as the fact that you try to start the rotation by jamming your toe pick into the ice as hard as you can (as oppsed to "ever so daintily." )

 

[antmanb]

Yes. Sasha does, too.

This is also called a "hammertoe." It is not so much the height of the free leg, as the fact that you try to start the rotation by jamming your toe pick into the ice as hard as you can (as oppsed to "ever so daintily." )

Really? I always thought the reference was to the high kicking free leg on the draw back before the pick in.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Actually, this is not technically true concerning toe assisted jumps. Toe assisted take off jumps (toe loop, flip, and Lutz) all have a pre-rotation component on the toe assist. If you look at a technically correct toe loop, it has the same "check mark" from the picking toe as you'd find at the end of a Salchow or loop take off (loop is more of a "flag" than a check mark, but still...). A bad toe loop turns into a "toe Axel" where the skater literally turns completely forward before taking off.

The flip has a pre-rotation component to it and a lot of coaches initially teach it with a pick in, pivot, and then jump and rotate the balance. A lot of really nice 3F take offs have a dropped picking foot so that it picks in 1/4 rotated already.

These are technically correct because you need to generate rotation from somewhere!

I actually made all that up while typing, but I hold firm that pre rotations do not occur with properly executed toe-off jumps, and particularly, the Lutz, There is no way one can prerotate a partial air turn on the ice from a back outside edge and then counter rotate in the air. if so, please show me youtube. Otherwise you are talking about a Flutz. No?

The Flip could put in a bit of ice prerotation, but not too much otherwise the landing might show URs or even a splat. The skater would lose balance for 3 rotations.

The only questionable take-off that I know of the Toe Loop is that a few skaters turn their free leg so that the toe-off is not from the back where it belongs. That's not a prerotation but a snarky way of toeing off.

 

[Mathman]

Really? I always thought the reference was to the high kicking free leg on the draw back before the pick in.

Here is what one frequently quoted source says about it. (This is from Wikipedia, but I have seen the exact words on other sites.)

One notable technique flaw that appears in many skaters' flips and Lutz jumps is "hammer toe," which occurs when the free leg rises unusually high, typically near (in some cases above) hip height, before descending to strike the ice. This can make the jump easier to rotate but sacrifices height and some control.

Although what we see is the high kick, I think it is jamming the toe into the ice that constitutes the payoff. I believe that very small and young jumping prodigies tend to develop this technique as a form of cheating the rotation. They are not strong enough to get the rotation going without clobbering the ice.

Does Mao Asada do this, to some extent?

 

[mskater93]

I actually made all that up while typing, but I hold firm that pre rotations do not occur with properly executed toe-off jumps, and particularly, the Lutz, There is no way one can prerotate a partial air turn on the ice from a back outside edge and then counter rotate in the air. if so, please show me youtube. Otherwise you are talking about a Flutz. No?

The Flip could put in a bit of ice prerotation, but not too much otherwise the landing might show URs or even a splat. The skater would lose balance for 3 rotations.

The only questionable take-off that I know of the Toe Loop is that a few skaters turn their free leg so that the toe-off is not from the back where it belongs. That's not a prerotation but a snarky way of toeing off.

I highly recommend you go take a look at skating jump secrets website. What Trevor Laak purports is definitely valid (I don't recall whether he discusses toe assist jumps).

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I highly recommend you go take a look at skating jump secrets website. What Trevor Laak purports is definitely valid (I don't recall whether he discusses toe assist jumps).

Thank you for the info Laak may provide, although I still can not fathom a prerotation on the ice from a back outside edge and counter rotate the jump. I am speaking of a proper Lutz. Was he a skater? I'll check him out.

 

[Mathman]

I haven't signed up for all of Laak's videos, but I think he has most to say about the loop jump. (Unfortunately, the way his cluster of web sites is set up, it makes it seem like he is some sort of con man -- I am sure that wasn't his intention..)

Here is a good video I found that shows flips by Yagudin and by Yu-na Kim from perfect angles to judge pre-rotation. I don't see any pre-rotation at all in these two examples (not a good landing by Yagudin, though)..

BEWARE -- this is one of those Korean videos whose purpose is to show that all Japanese skaters suck. But it does show two good flip take-offs at the beginning. )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iel9kjBAq2s

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I haven't signed up for all of Laak's videos, but I think he has most to say about the loop jump. (Unfortunately, the way his cluster of web sites is set up, it makes it seem like he is some sort of con man -- I am sure that wasn't his intention..)

Here is a good video I found that shows flips by Yagudin and by Yu-na Kim from perfect angles to judge pre-rotation. I don't see any pre-rotation at all in these two examples (not a good landing by Yagudin, though)..

BEWARE -- this is one of those Korean videos whose purpose is to show that all Japanese skaters suck. But it does show two good flip take-offs at the beginning. )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iel9kjBAq2s

Prerotations on the ice for toe-off jumps, I believe wholeheartedly, do nothing to make the jump easier for the skater, and for the Lutz, it is impossible. However the Loop Jump and the Salchow both can prerotate on the ice. I know for fact. I did prerotate those jumps.

 

[mskater93]

Prerotations on the ice for toe-off jumps, I believe wholeheartedly, do nothing to make the jump easier for the skater, and for the Lutz, it is impossible. However the Loop Jump and the Salchow both can prerotate on the ice. I know for fact. I did prerotate those jumps.

Toe loop definitely has pre-rotation. It gets the same 1/4 turn check mark as a Salchow. On the flip, I've seen a lot of dropped picking hips so that the toe goes in 1/4 turn rotated which get called as a flip. Lutz, not as often.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Toe loop definitely has pre-rotation. It gets the same 1/4 turn check mark as a Salchow. On the flip, I've seen a lot of dropped picking hips so that the toe goes in 1/4 turn rotated which get called as a flip. Lutz, not as often.

First of all I do not see any reason to think Laak is the spokesman for all of the prerotations on ice. I will not take his word for it, I am sorry. No way can any human skater prerotate a back outside edge on the ice and jump counter rotations in the air.

If Laak is speaking about edge jumps where prerotations take place, I am sure we all know that.

But if he sees prerotations in Toe jumps then we all have to see demonstrations of that or at least of diagram of how he perceives the jump with a prerotaton.
Once a skater places his free leg toe in the ice, he will jump from that position. If he prerotates the Flip or Toe Loop jumps which are possible before he places his Toe off, which is highly improbable, he will lose balance and the the results, at best, will be soooo sloppy.

Are you sure you know what a prerotation is in any jump other than an edge jump? I've seen many in Loops and Salchows, and even Axels but never in a Toe-off Jump. Please give us a link to Laak if you can not link us to a youtube.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If two posters do agree that a wrong edge take-off can be an intended lutz, how does the caller, know that intention? Could it not be a transition to change edges? Of course skaters who will never be able to do a correct lutz takeoff and coaches whose pupils will never be able to to do a correct lutz takeoff, will want the flutz valid in part for scoring. Easier rotations from the back inside edge, and no fear of good landing. Can't blame them, even if it is not good sportsmanship

I have to live with this but I would not put the skater in a class of Good Skating Skills, if a skater could not do a proper take-off. No?.

 

[antmanb]

First of all I do not see any reason to think Laak is the spokesman for all of the prerotations on ice. I will not take his word for it, I am sorry. No way can any human skater prerotate a back outside edge on the ice and jump counter rotations in the air.

I think that is another reason why the Lutz is the hardest jump (in terms of the full rotation jumps i.e. not including the axel) because there is much less scope for cheating the rotation (unless you take off from the wrong edge of course!).

But if he sees prerotations in Toe jumps then we all have to see demonstrations of that or at least of diagram of how he perceives the jump with a prerotaton.
Once a skater places his free leg toe in the ice, he will jump from that position. If he prerotates the Flip or Toe Loop jumps which are possible before he places his Toe off, which is highly improbable, he will lose balance and the the results, at best, will be soooo sloppy.

The pre-rotation on the toe jumps isn't from the skating edge (RBO for toe-loop, LBI for flip for LBO for Lutz) on that you definitely are right. It would be impossible to pre-rotate the skating edge on all of those jumps except the Flip. If you do that on the flip the tracing on the ice basically shows a curve back past the pick-in mark and circling round it depending on how long you ride the edge. It's a common mistake for beginners learning the flip (unfortunately i speak from experience on this!). The "pre-rotation" that does occur on the toe jump is on the toe-pick itself.

The twist on the pick as you take off is some of the rotation you get as you plant the pick in, it has to happen, if it didn't the skater would pop straight up and not rotate. On the toe-loop it happens because you are taught once you pick in you kick your free leg across. As you say it happens in split seconds but that is what happens - the free leg kicks past the picking foot, the picking foot is twisting and coming up off the ice.

With the flip it's a similar motion in that the approaching edge while shallow is still an inside edge giving you the rotation, as you pick in you draw the skate back and then drive the free knee up and then around to rotate and a similar twist on the toe pick occurs until you're airborne.

On the Lutz I imagine it's not as pronounced and the fact that you are leaning on the outside edge means that you have to hold the check maybe a fraction longer to ensure you don't bring the edge round to an inside edge, however, once the toe goes in and the free knee drive up for the jump imagine there is still some scoe to twist on the pick as you get airborne, especially in the multi-rotation version of the jump.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^
I think what Laak is talking about is not prerotation on the ice but a tricky way of turning the takeoff foot to face the direction (already a half turn) of the takeoff. That is like Evan's last year 3A., and a multitude of Toe Loops turned into waltz jumps. However it is NOT on the ice. It is in the position of the free leg. So Laak is correct to call it sneaky but it is not a half turn squish on the ICE.

 

[antmanb]

^^^
I think what Laak is talking about is not prerotation on the ice but a tricky way of turning the takeoff foot to face the direction (already a half turn) of the takeoff. That is like Evan's last year 3A., and a multitude of Toe Loops turned into waltz jumps. However it is NOT on the ice. It is in the position of the free leg. So Laak is correct to call it sneaky but it is not a half turn squish on the ICE.

Oh ok, i haven't really looked at Laak's website - i think i looked at it breifly a long time ago when the links first started doing the rounds.

Does he mean e.g. Zhangs pick-in technique on her flip/flutz (ignoring all other poor elements of the technique) whereby as she draws her foot back before the pick-in the toe is turned in a quarter of a turn?

I think that might work (though the rick of injury must be pretty high) for flip and lutz but it definitely doesn't on the toe-loop because of the risk of getting a toe-waltz/axel.

An interesting thing a coach in the UK said at a camp back in april was about when you kick the free leg through on the toe-loop, salchow and axel - kick the free leg through pigeon-toed as that can make a difference of a 1/4 turn on the landing and therefore can be the difference between getting the jump ratified or not.

Ant

 

[Mathman]

I think what Laak is talking about is not prerotation on the ice but a tricky way of turning the takeoff foot to face the direction (already a half turn) of the takeoff. That is like Evan's last year 3A., and a multitude of Toe Loops turned into waltz jumps. However it is NOT on the ice. It is in the position of the free leg. So Laak is correct to call it sneaky but it is not a half turn squish on the ICE.

Can you explain this a little more? If the pre-rotation is not on the ice, where is it?

 

[museksk8r]

This is more of a hopeful wish list post.

I hope and wish that every skater in the world in all the disciplines remains healthy and injury free, no matter how unlikely that wish is. I don't want to see anyone's dreams dashed, whether they be my favorites or not.

I hope and wish for perfect performances and spectacular seasons from Jeremy Abbott, Tomas Verner, Yannick Ponsero, Artem Grigoriev, Takahiko Kozuka, Samuel Contesti, Daisuke Takahashi, Joey Russell, Joannie Rochette, Yu-Na Kim, Carolina Kostner, Rachael Flatt, Sarah Meier, Alena Leonova, Savchenko/Szolkowy, Mukhortova/Trankov, Kavaguti/Smirnov, Denney/Barrett, Davis/White, Virtue/Moir, Delobel/Schoenfelder, and Domnina/Shabalin. I wish there was some way that all of these skaters could win gold medals in all the competitions they enter! I will be looking for improved consistency and confidence and enjoyable programs from all of them in this Olympic season. I hope all of them build their season up rather than peaking too early and then fizzling out later. I hope all of their dreams come true!

Dream Olympic Podiums:

Men
1. Jeremy Abbott
2. Tomas Verner
3. Yannick Ponsero

If any 2 of them are off, I hope Takahiko Kozuka and Daisuke Takahashi can rise to the occasion!

Ladies
1. Joannie Rochette
2. Yu-Na Kim
3. Carolina Kostner

Pairs
1. Savchenko/Szolkowy
2. Mukhortova/Trankov
3. Kavaguti/Smirnov

If one team is off, I hope Denney/Barrett can rise to the occasion!

Ice Dance
I don't have a dream finish here, but I hope the podium consists of 3 teams from Davis/White, Virtue/Moir, Delobel/Schoenfelder, and Domnina/Shabalin, whichever teams are the best and most deserving based on their performances in Vancouver.

Best of luck to everyone!

Please name some of your favorites and comment on what one thing you would like to see most.

Jeremy Abbott - building improvement on the consistency and controlling of competitve nerves he showed during the Grand Prix Series last season.

Joannie Rochette - building more confidence and security on the 3Lutz jump, enough so to include that 3Lutz+3toe combination she does so easily in practice and including it in her competitive SP consistently.

Tomas Verner - building endurance and confidence to get through a LP cleanly.

Yannick Ponsero - improving his consistency. Hopefully, he has included more training time into his schedule for the Olympic season and has sought the help of a great sports psychologist.

Takahiko Kozuka - showing more expression, joy, and freedom in his presentation.

Samuel Contesti - building on the consistency he showed the judges last season at Europeans and Worlds. If he shows he can skate like that on a consistent basis, his PCS marks will benefit. His PCS will also benefit from improvement in posture, flow, and less stiffness in his movement.

Artem Grigoriev - has to work on a 3Axel and get that jump into his competitive programs.

Carolina Kostner - like Yannick and Tomas, she has to improve her endurance and consistency.

Rachael Flatt - continue to work on her posture, flow, speed, expression, and build on the confidence from that 5th place finish at Worlds.

Sarah Meier - work on the technique and consistency of her 3flip and 3loop jumps.

Alena Leonova - work on controlling her speed and adrenaline and work on her finesse and holding her in-between moves better.

Mukhortova/Trankov - work on handling the competitive nerves better and improving their consistency and endurance in the LP.

Kavaguti/Smirnov - work on finessing their skating and overall presentation better and exclude the very risky throw 4Salchow from their LP if it's not a rock solid element they can execute cleanly on a consistent basis.

Denney/Barrett - work on enhancing the beauty and difficulty of their choreography and transitions and the finesse of their skating skills and overall presentation. This will improve their PCS and GOE scores.

 

[mskater93]

Can you explain this a little more? If the pre-rotation is not on the ice, where is it?

The pre-rotation is on the ice. The Salchow has a check mark on the end, the toe loop pick mark (for a correct toe loop) has the same look as the Salchow. The loop has a flag on the end and many people pick 1/4 rotated on flips and/or lutzes. If you don't generate the rotation while leaving the ice (but still on it), you aren't going to rotate. Simple physics!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Can you explain this a little more? If the pre-rotation is not on the ice, where is it?

It's in the body which has already turned in the direction of the jump, then comes some sort of a make believe toe off and jump. To get a better view watch some novice or juvenile skaters turn their bodies half way, then pick the ice and do a waltz jump-like or axel-like. It's also used in combo jumps when the toe loop is the last jump of the combo.In fact it happens quite often in combo jumps. The judges do not seem to care about it, and the Tech Caller is too busy with URs that he doesn't care about it either.

Laak is somewhat correct in calling them secrets.