Who Could Do A Program With No Jumps... | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Who Could Do A Program With No Jumps...

gkelly said:
That's not at all how I remember his reputation when he was competing. Quite the opposite, actually.
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I looked up some results of his. The records mostly confirm your words; his PCS score was mostly same or better than his TES. Not every single time, so it could be that I remember a commentary about a specific performance (possibly WC 05 or WC 06, definitely not OG). In those days YouTube was not the thing, chances to see skaters from other continents were scarce and impressions were fragmentary. A certain deflection of their reputation could happen. I can't even decide if I should I edit my post or leave it as a historic evidence :biggrin:
 
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Anna K. said:
I looked up some results of his. The records mostly confirm your words; his PCS score was mostly same or better than his TES. Not every single time, so it could be that I remember a commentary about a specific performance (possibly WC 05 or WC 06, definitely not OG). In those days YouTube was not the thing, chances to see skaters from other continents were scarce and impressions were fragmentary. A certain deflection of their reputation could happen. I can't even decide if I should I edit my post or leave it as a historic evidence :biggrin:
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Definitely if people only got to see occasional performances from a given skater, a reputation could develop from a single out-of-character performance.

Viewers in different countries might have access to different performances, especially back when TV or live attendance was the only way to see anything. And different broadcasters would feature different skaters if they weren't showing the whole event -- often just the final group, or just medal contenders, plus the home nation skater(s).

Different commentary could also lead to different reputations among different viewing audiences.
 
What I remember about Buttle versus Joubert at the 2008 world championships was not so much the PCS but rather how the TES played out. Joubert did a quad in the LP, but was still outpointed in tech by ten points.

This led to a lot of griping and grumbling along the lines of, what is wrong with figure skating that a man can win a world championship without a quad?

This brouhaha continued into the 2010 Olympics when Evan Lysacek beat Evgeni Plushenko in TES and overall. (In the LP the jumping bean Lysacek outpointed the artistic Plushenko by 2 poins in tech, and they were exactly tied in PCS).

Lots of folks ended up with bad publicity for "unsportsmanlike" comments that they made, including Joubert, Plushenko, and U.S. judge Joe Inman.
 
Magill said:
I guess most of fans feel that way about their faves if they have one though I am not sure what it might prove apart from us being true fans .... :)
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I think that's the problem with my question - and maybe I didn't word it right (I tried!), because there has been a lot of "well I would watch him/her/them so of course a whole audience would!" but if we are honest that... isn't at all likely. Then again, it's a mental exercise, since AFAIK no one except Yuzuru has actually done it in the IJS era, and he did it in shows. We can only imagine so of course... we do.
 
I agree, the question as worded invites a magnanimous response. Anybody could do a program with no jumps. The question is rather, is anyone so spellbinding in terms of other skating skills that we wouldn't miss an occasional lta-da! leap to spice it up.

Or would even the most spellbinding of programs be even better with a few vigorous jumps thrown in as musical highlights and choreographic punctuation matrks?
 
Mathman said:
What I remember about Buttle versus Joubert at the 2008 world championships was not so much the PCS but rather how the TES played out. Joubert did a quad in the LP, but was still outpointed in tech by ten points.
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That's a good reminder of the fact that skating technique isn't just jumps. Most of the people mentioned in this thread are also very good at steps and spins (also part of TES). There are a few who are less so, but compensate with strong charisma/performance.
However, in general I think having a well-rounded technical foundation helps to open up more artistic possibilities.

Often when people debate 'technique vs artistry', I suspect what is actually meant is 'jumps vs everything else'.
 
TallyT said:
I think that's the problem with my question - and maybe I didn't word it right (I tried!), because there has been a lot of "well I would watch him/her/them so of course a whole audience would!" but if we are honest that... isn't at all likely. Then again, it's a mental exercise, since AFAIK no one except Yuzuru has actually done it in the IJS era, and he did it in shows. We can only imagine so of course... we do.
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The bold part is not true.


There has been a number of programs performed without jumps in shows. You just need to look for them. Also, honestly, it's not because a skater who did spend 4 minutes on the ice during a very engaging performance adds a 2axel or a triple toe that it shouldn't be seen for what it was... 3 minutes 59 seconds of pure beautiful skating. There have been comical programs as well.

Some programs were mentioned in this thread already. One of my faves (someone else posted it already.. but it seems you haven't seen it)
Jeff's Both sides now.


Anthony just did one with a chair... some fabulous bendy spinners have done programs focused on flexibility... etc .etc

Anthony's


There is even an IJS discipline called solo dance where skaters do everything but jumping.


So what exactly was your aim with this thread if not for others to share which skaters we could admire even without jumps? I mean, I even admire some skaters, not only without jumps but without skates on.
:laugh2:
 
4everchan said:
The bold part is not true.


There has been a number of programs performed without jumps in shows. You just need to look for them. Also, honestly, it's not because a skater who did spend 4 minutes on the ice during a very engaging performance adds a 2axel or a triple toe that it shouldn't be seen for what it was... 3 minutes 59 seconds of pure beautiful skating. There have been comical programs as well.

Some programs were mentioned in this thread already. One of my faves (someone else posted it already.. but it seems you haven't seen it)
Jeff's Both sides now.


Anthony just did one with a chair... some fabulous bendy spinners have done programs focused on flexibility... etc .etc

Anthony's


There is even an IJS discipline called solo dance where skaters do everything but jumping.


So what exactly was your aim with this thread if not for others to share which skaters we could admire even without jumps? I mean, I even admire some skaters, not only without jumps but without skates on.
:laugh2:
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I quite clearly wrote 'AFAIK', as I was thinking no jumps whatsoever not even singles, and I didn't know of others. You do not have to get all accusatory, I would be happy to accept a polite correction. And the aim as I have said several times (while giving my own list which included skaters I love but also skaters I don't at all love but recognise the merits and fandoms of) is not whether we personally admire them as most of us have skaters we would watch skating in circles on a frozen lake but who the general audience doesn't get so much, but who an audience not made up of us would watch.
 
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TallyT said:
I quite clearly wrote 'AFAIK', as I was thinking no jumps whatsoever not even singles, and I didn't know of others. You do not have to get all accusatory, I would be happy to accept a polite correction. And the aim as I have said several times (while giving my own list which included skaters I love but also skaters I don't at all love but recognise the merits and fandoms of) is not whether we personally admire them as most of us have skaters we would watch skating in circles on a frozen lake but who the general audience doesn't get so much, but who an audience not made up of us would watch.
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I was just correcting your assumption not being accusatory though ;)
 
I came to this thread hoping for links to programs sans jumps that have been actually performed, but if I need to fantasize...

Talking about wishful thinking, I'd wish to see a program sans jumps from every single competitive skater in the field. It is a massive storytelling exam after all and also a chance for skaters to display skills that they are too tired to show during their programs (i.e., simple yet super-fast spins). It would be just interesting to see what else skaters have to offer. It would be also a challenge for choreographers. And, since I'd like all skaters to do it (it's a fantasy, right?), then why not to include it in the framework of the existing competition format? Let's say, the short program stays as it is, a little bit of everything, but the free program requirements get changed every year. One year there are programs without jumps, another year there are programs without spins, and another year it's an official obstacle course that consists of jumps only with all kinds of difficult entries and exits ;)
 
I'm afraid I cannot speak for the masses, but if I could add some more skaters worth watching without jumps (at least for me), it would be Kazuki Tomono, Arlet Levandi, Jia Shin, Loena Hendrickx, Matteo Rizzo.

Regarding non-hardcore skating fans that I know, my mum enjoyed Isabeau's gala at the last Worlds and my friend specifically pointed out non-jumping aspects of Shoma's SP at the same competition.
 
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Well, Yuzu was obviously not the only one and not the first one who would have a show or a gala program without jumps, and some of those by others have been linked here earlier, even by myself. Yet, I think one of the reasons why he has become the poster boy for the no-jump excellence for many people is his post-competitive era program known as "A Fleeting Dream/The Dream that will eventually end" - which is not just without jumps but - as some people calculated - it is worth exactly 0 TES under IJS scoring system. It basically has no competition-valid elements at all, it's all just about purity of skating, which makes it kind of unique. And yet it is one of the most beautiful skates I have ever seen and many people agree on that, as it is a fan favourite and watched with amazement. In my experience, its sheer beauty is also speaking to many non-hardcore fans of figure skating I had a chance to speak to about which was easy as it was a part of the GIFT which is on D+ and therefore watched by casual fans, too (which is also the reason I cannot link it as it is not available in its full glory on YT).
And although that was not the question, I think it might be the reason for confusion for when someone speaks of a program without jumps, this is what comes to my mind immediately, and probably not just for me. Still, I realize it is not what is technically meant here in this thread, and moreover, many people here probably have never seen it so obviously they do not share this association.
 
Of contemporary skaters, it has to be Kamila Valieva.



She is simply in a league of her own.

Of course there were two jumps, and despite no coaching for nearly one year the jumps are perfect, but you could remove the jumps and it wouldn't change the overall impression in any way. This is perfection.
 
Anna K. said:
But still, the choreography is packed. He's telling the story he is emotionally connected to and the audience can connect to. Which is the most important component for the audience yet only tiny fraction in PCS.
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For me, this is the whole ball game. Emotional connection is the goal. Techniques, not just jumps, but transitions, spins, and even edges ... are the means to the most important component of figure skating: connection.
 
noskates said:
It would have to be someone that... doesn't have to rely on choreography to deliver the program.
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Without jumps? What else are they supposed to rely on? Spins and turns/edge changes for 3 minutes? I dont understand. Anyways...

The obvious answer to this thread is Paradis. I skimmed the thread and I only saw two mentions. The one was from someone who dropped like 50 names anyways. There was a qualifying comment too like "maybe Paradis" or "eventually Paradis" or he has "potential" or something. I dont know how he hasnt proven himself already as an artist. His tech isnt good but his expression is beyond what anybody expects from male skaters. I've watched some of the "best" male skaters by scoring and its genuinely difficult, they have no expression or grace at all. Cant finish most men's programs. Paradis destroys the current "high competition" in this aspect. It seems people cant help operating under the senseless dogma that young means unproven. Or some people endlessly, exhibitionistically idolize the same "classic" and "historical" skaters over nostalgia, rigidity in taste or some semblance of old fashion sophistication. Honestly, there are some names at this point that at just a glance make me nauseous. Talent is talent is talent; skill likewise, and an artist too. Young skaters never get their flowers here.

Frankly, the kid basically already drops killer skating without jumps considering he falls/steps-out on the majority. It only impresses me even moreso though. Not for a second ever is he phased by a fall, not momentum nor artistry/rhythm stutter. You can see the second he loses his axis and knows hes done, that hes already just planning on how to exit ASAP to keep the atmosphere. He has a splendid spiral, and cantilever, and a wonderful Biellmann which is rare for a man from what I see. The kid isnt here for points but for catharsis.

He has a nice genraic range as well, very impressive for his thus short career. The following linked skate is his typical ballade image, which yes is his clear forte:



However, his SP this season is also a highly advisable watch. Its an expert capture of a rarely demonstrated (especially in competition) true thriller on ice (as in, the genre, not the MJ song). Yes, we get some "Halloweenian" programs, or some "ghostly" themes. But, they are usually either banal (like the image of some, typically ubiquitous, film-inspired character) or intentionally light-hearted and playful. When comes to true thriller: some try, and most fail; they come off as either half-hearted, cringe, or ineffectively dramatic. Paradis however in his SP manages the image perfectly starting the performance even before the music but already during his walk-out. The theme from my understanding is schizophrenia. Creative and effective! An exemplary artistic innovator, out with the old and in with the new:



Last year during his SP there was also demonstrated grand power and intensity, and a well executed voguing dance-style (he took the image of a snake, to some rhythmic, oriental beat), though in general I found the program's essence much less sophisticated than what he is capable of, and frankly, a bit coarse/vulgar. Anyways, still a demonstration of talent and courage in varying images. His FS last year was another ballade, from my memory, but again a splendid watch.

Someone already mentioned his chair program, which I also would've shared otherwise.

Some users who know me well enough at this point will be surprised by my appreciation of this skater. Nobody would expect me to sympathize with his image, or his choices of music. Entirely correct assumptions. Notice that this is objective analysis and artistic criticism, not spamming the same skater I like in every thread by vain tradition.
 
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