Who deserved the 2002 Worlds Ladies title?

[christinaskater]

Aside from the 1994 Olympics, 1996 Worlds and 1998 Olympics- the 2002 Worlds ladies title was one of the most debated contest ever!

Michelle Kwan 2002 Worlds LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoWrWD8M_cU&feature=related

Irina Slutskaya 2002 Worlds LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuO2eZ8kLgg&feature=related

I would have given Michelle for the LP 5.7, 5.9
Irina for the LP: 5.8, 5.8

 

[Tinymavy15]

We have to start with the SP. One of the major points of the 2002 event was that Sarah was 4th after the short, under that system it was VERY difficult to move up from out of the top three to win.

The top four after the short were:

Michelle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-tfa1vO0jw

Irina
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePYXpf4mKwE

Sasha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1gJ5H3ubfA

Sarah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5xZX-pSZqw

Michelle was excellent, i would have had her 1st after the short, even though she did use an old program from 1998. Irina and Sarah completed the same jumping passes. Irina was weak artistically, Sarah was not bad, and had better speed than Irina, but did not have the international record to garner bigger scores. Sasha had the same jumps as Michelle and tied or exceeded her artistically. I would have had Sasha second to Michelle only because of her lack of international experience, Irina 3rd and Sarah 4th, because Sarah got so close to the boards on her combination.

Everyone skated well in the SP, not the same story in the LP.

Michelle was obviously tentitive and nervous but would have won anyway I think if she had not fallen on the flip. no triple triple.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_BFYZPuqEA&feature=related


Sasha fell on her 3/3 attempt right off the top. Rest of the program was sharp, fast clean and artistically superior.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6wsyPTtaeM

Irina had a poor program in comparison to the others. no triple triple despite her track record of trying them and dipped far forward on the flip. She did skate with more verve and attack than Michelle and had higher, cleaner jumps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqW0yv8j80E&feature=related

Sarah has the "skate of her life" with a "clean" skate with two 3/3 combos. She wins because Irina beat michelle is the LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pun-ZjqUOLA&playnext=1&list=PL4B54D86C31C93727

This is where it gets hard. nobody was perfect and it really comes down to artisty over technical or vice versa. The fact that Sarah's combos would not have been credited under the current system also complicates things. trying to judge as would a 6.0 judge, I say Sarah 1st, Sasha 2nd, Irina 3rd, Michelle 4th for the freeskate alone.

If I do this right, then Sarah still would have gotten gold, Sasha silver, Irina bronze and Michelle 4th? Is that right 6.0 experts?

 

[Mathman]

^ Yes, with those marks Sarah edges Sasha on the tie-break and irina gets third, also on a tie-break.

To me, the big question in the 2002 Olympics was whether Sarah Hughes deserved fourth place in the short program, ahead of Fumie Suguri and Maria Butyrskaya. Sarah got only three fourth place votes, with six judges putting her fifth or below.

I agree that Sasha, as the new kid on the block, would have had to go squeaky clean to get the nod from the judges in the LP.

But I think Christinaskater is asking about 2002 WORLDS. I was Ok with Slutskaya winning, based on her and Michelle's performances.

 

[Bartek]

We have to start with the SP. One of the major points of the 2002 event was that Sarah was 4th after the short, under that system it was VERY difficult to move up from out of the top three to win.

The top four after the short were:

Michelle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-tfa1vO0jw

Irina
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePYXpf4mKwE

Sasha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1gJ5H3ubfA

Sarah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5xZX-pSZqw

Michelle was excellent, i would have had her 1st after the short, even though she did use an old program from 1998. Irina and Sarah completed the same jumping passes. Irina was weak artistically, Sarah was not bad, and had better speed than Irina, but did not have the international record to garner bigger scores. Sasha had the same jumps as Michelle and tied or exceeded her artistically. I would have had Sasha second to Michelle only because of her lack of international experience, Irina 3rd and Sarah 4th, because Sarah got so close to the boards on her combination.

Everyone skated well in the SP, not the same story in the LP.

Michelle was obviously tentitive and nervous but would have won anyway I think if she had not fallen on the flip. no triple triple.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_BFYZPuqEA&feature=related


Sasha fell on her 3/3 attempt right off the top. Rest of the program was sharp, fast clean and artistically superior.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6wsyPTtaeM

Irina had a poor program in comparison to the others. no triple triple despite her track record of trying them and dipped far forward on the flip. She did skate with more verve and attack than Michelle and had higher, cleaner jumps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqW0yv8j80E&feature=related

Sarah has the "skate of her life" with a "clean" skate with two 3/3 combos. She wins because Irina beat michelle is the LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pun-ZjqUOLA&playnext=1&list=PL4B54D86C31C93727

This is where it gets hard. nobody was perfect and it really comes down to artisty over technical or vice versa. The fact that Sarah's combos would not have been credited under the current system also complicates things. trying to judge as would a 6.0 judge, I say Sarah 1st, Sasha 2nd, Irina 3rd, Michelle 4th for the freeskate alone.

If I do this right, then Sarah still would have gotten gold, Sasha silver, Irina bronze and Michelle 4th? Is that right 6.0 experts?

At 2002 Olympic Irina clearly should've won the SP over Michelle. Kwan's 1st place was ridiculous! Underrotated triple flip, poor height, weaker and less difficult speed, worse speed, only spiral was better. Irina was clearly better in the SP! Based on that she should've won the whole thing. Had she been 1st after short her 2nd place in the free skate would've been enough for the gold medal over Sarah who had skate of her life but with two severely underrotated triple-triples, horrible flutzes etc. 2002 Olympics should've been Irina;s victory even with the mistake on the triple flip in the long. But the thread is about 2002 Worlds. It was Irina's deserved victory.

 

[Blades of Passion]

2002 Worlds = 1. Fumie Suguri, 2. Michelle Kwan, 3. Irina Slutskaya.

I find Suguri's LP performance actually be a little better than Kwan's artistically. Definitely her best performance ever. Kwan was a little better in terms of tech, so it's very close between those two performances for me, but Suguri also did better in the SP so that pushes her ahead when trying to decide a victor here.

Slutskaya, I'm sorry, has poor choreography and is not a musical skater. She didn't have enough tech content (no 3-3 at this competition) to make up for how much she lacks in the artistic realm. She was very clearly 3rd for me.

I would have had Sasha second to Michelle only because of her lack of international experience.

That's one of the worst reasons for judging a performance to be better or worse.

The fact that Sarah's combos would not have been credited under the current system also complicates things.

Her second Triple-Triple (3Toe-3Loop) certainly would have been credited. The first one (3Sal-3Loop) was more suspect, on both parts of the combination. The 3Sal was probably actually a bit shorter than the following 3Loop. If you look at takeoff and landing points, though, I'd say they were only 1/4 turn short. Right at the borderline...have to give the skater the benefit of the doubt. The combination looked good in real time too.

The jump in her program that was underrotated was the 2Toe in combination with the 3Lutz...she has that poor "pull around" technique on her toeloop and pre-rotates it too much. The 2Toe being underrotated is pretty much irrelevant, though, considering the the rest of the content in the program.

I do think Hughes deserved Gold at 2002 Olympics. Even if there were technique issues, she tried a very ambitious layout and delivered. The performance also had superb spins + an excellent Spiral + a lovely, energetic presentation that went very well with the music.

Nobody set themselves far enough ahead in the SP to still deserve the Gold over Hughes after the LP performances they gave. Kwan's 3Flip in the SP was underrotated and it wasn't a 6.0-worthy performance (although still very good and probably the best of the night in that regard). Slutskaya had a lackluster SP for me; all 3 jumps frontloaded at the start and not much relation to the music. She was definitely the best of the SP technically but, still, no 3-3 combination. There was nothing groundbreaking. Sasha Cohen was quite divine in the SP but still showed a little bit of immaturity, which kept it from being truly transcendent. Hughes was mostly forgettable in the SP but still skated solidly enough there.

I'd give the Silver to Kwan because her program and presentation deserved to get her that far, despite the fall. Slutskaya wasn't clean either and the performance was terrible. She skated scared for pretty much all of the program and then flailed around at the end. Not commendable. Kwan gave a better interpretation all the way through and had more actual choreography. I'd even put Cohen ahead of Slutskaya because she too offered more of a real performance (the choreography was lesser than Kwan's, however) and did enough technically to be competitive. If Slutskaya's 3Flip had been clean then her boring performance would have deserved a medal, but she didn't even hit 6 clean Triples.

 

[goldenpleasures]

LOL, at Worlds 2002 Kwan fell out of her triple lutz in the SP, and was marked accordingly. Would people really have her above a very clean Slutskaya, with high, perfectly landed jumps, and who received two 6.0s for presentation?

I think there's a lot of 'misremembering' in this thread. There also seems to be real confusion as to whether we're talking about Olympics or Worlds 2002.

 

[Mafke]

We have to start with the SP. One of the major points of the 2002 event was that Sarah was 4th after the short,

I think you have the wrong competition (or the OP does). Sarah Hughes did not skate in the 2002 World Championships.

While the 2002 olympics were fairly controversial (for various reasons) the 2002 ladies world championships weren't. Both Kwan and Slutskaya skated better than they did at SLC (had either skated their WC LP at SLC they would have won I think) but Kwan took herself out in the SP. Given the whole 6.0 factored placement thing no matter who won the LP Slute was going to win (given the two performances on he day) so giving her the LP over Kwan didn't make much difference.

 

[Mathman]

Given the whole 6.0 factored placement thing no matter who won the LP Slute was going to win (given the two performances on he day) so giving her the LP over Kwan didn't make much difference.

I don't think so. If Michelle had won the free skate with Irina second the placements would have been:

Irina: 1st in qual(B), 1st in SP, 2nd in LP

Michelle: 1st in qual(A), 3rd in SP, 1st in LP

I am not sure exactly what factoring system was used in that competition, but typically the factors were 1/7 on qual, 2/7 on SP, 4/7 on LP. In this case (or in any factoring where the LP is weighted twice the SP, no matter what weight is given to the qualifying round). Michelle and Irina tie in factored placements and Michelle wins the LP tie-breaker.

In 6.0, you win the free, you win the gold.

 

[christinaskater]

I don't think so. If Michelle had won the free skate with Irina second the placements would have been:

Irina: 1st in qual(B), 1st in SP, 2nd in LP

Michelle: 1st in qual(A), 3rd in SP, 1st in LP

I am not sure exactly what factoring system was used in that competition, but typically the factors were 1/7 on qual, 2/7 on SP, 4/7 on LP. In this case (or in any factoring where the LP is weighted twice the SP, no matter what weight is given to the qualifying round). Michelle and Irina tie in factored placements and Michelle wins the LP tie-breaker.

In 6.0, you win the free, you win the gold.

I agree- statistically, had MK won the free, then she would have won Worlds 2002!

 

[Mathman]

Oh wait. My bad. Ignore post #8. (Sorry I misled you, Christina -- I got the weights wrong.)

Mafke (and also goldenpleasures) is right, Michelle was out of luck after the short program no matter what. In that competition the weights were 20% qual, 30% SP, 50% LP. So Irina still would have won overall with 1, 1, 2 versus 1, 3, 1 for Michelle. (The LP was not weighted twice as heavily as the LP in this competition.)

I wonder if the reason they changed the weights in later years was to keep up the suspense for the LP?

 

[christinaskater]

I think Dick may have had a point about the block judging during this competition.

It was a panel of judges coming predominantly from the Eastern block and that I guess made things much easier for Irina.

Irina was also incredible in my opinion (my fave Tosca program of hers was from the Goodwill games-the costume, feel etc. was perfect)!

During the Olys she also felt that pressure that MK felt (Sasha, MK, Mao and Kim) really felt this pressure!

 

[christinaskater]

Oh wait. My bad. Ignore post #8. (Sorry I misled you, Christina -- I got the weights wrong.)

Mafke (and also goldenpleasures) is right, Michelle was out of luck after the short program no matter what. In that competition the weights were 20% qual, 30% SP, 50% LP. So Irina still would have won overall with 1,1,2 versus 1, 3, 1 for Michelle.

I wonder if the reason they changed the weights in later years was to keep up the suspense for the LP?

It's alright- it was truly another great night of skating!

I think it was really different with the qualifying rounds etc.

 

[christinaskater]

She finished 2nd in the both times she skated in the White Ring.

MK both gave us 2 exceptional and 2 of her best performances though with Lyra and Scheherazade!

 

[Olympia]

I think it wasn't just Eastern bloc countries but European judges in general who tended to vote en masse at certain times. The European judges tended to prefer the European style over the North American, understandably. This handicapped American and Canadian skaters (not just singles competitors) many times through the years, I think. It wasn't cheating as such, it was just preference. I think one time it really showed up was when Blumberg/Siebert skated that incredible Scheherezade in the 1984 ice dancing finals in the Olympics but lost out on the bronze by millimeters. The scuttlebutt was that they were penalized for skating to just one piece of music instead of something with variations, which was pretty laughable considering that this was the year Torvill and Dean racked up a string of 6.0's for the even more rhythmically regular Bolero. Considering that the actual bronze medalists were the splendid Klimova and Ponomarenko, this isn't completely a "wuzrobbed" situation, but one can see how under such conditions, the preference for a certain style or type of presentation might cause a judge to lean a bit in one direction or the other. As Slutskaya herself said rather cheerfully in 2002, "This is sport."

As for Slutskaya's pressure, I'm sure it was extraordinary. Wasn't she the first true multi-year Russian contender for international ladies' singles excellence? There had been one other Russian/Soviet Olympic bronze medalist, Ivanova I think, and of course the Ukranian champion Baiul. But Baiul was in and out and gone in a year (though an amazing year), and Ivanova didn't really make a lasting mark. Slutskaya was a world-class presence for almost as long as Michelle was. The expectations on her must have been very heavy. She was a delightful competitor, with wonderful springy jumps and ever-improving presentation. Anything she won, she worked like crazy to attain, and not always in the best of health either. I'm glad she has two Olympic medals and several World golds to her name.

 

[silverpond]

Irina Slutskaya was an exceptionally hard-working and talented competitor. What she lacked in artistry and choreography, she usually made up with her high flying jumps and spins. It seemed obvious that she expected to win the gold in Salt Lake City and was quite shocked, not to mention disappointed at settling for the silver medal.

Irina skated well at the Worlds that year and won, thanks in part to the mistakes Michelle Kwan made in the short program. She seemed pleased to have regained her World title.

As others have written, there was a tremendous amount of pressure placed upon the skaters from the Soviet Union - which by that time no longer existed - and former Eastern bloc countries to win medals. The skaters did not train or compete for their pleasure - they were expected to bring home medals, preferably gold medals. The judging panel usually consisted of members from several European countries, and those were frequently the former bloc countries. The judges from those countries typically preferred their own skaters, or at least their "style" of skating, and the judges always had a high regard for Slutskaya, whether or not she skated well.

That being said, I have so much respect for Irina for her longevity and persistence in training under what were probably less than ideal circumstances, and for dealing with a variety of health issues.

 

[attyfan]

At 2002 Olympic Irina clearly should've won the SP over Michelle. Kwan's 1st place was ridiculous! Underrotated triple flip, poor height, weaker and less difficult speed, worse speed, only spiral was better. Irina was clearly better in the SP! Based on that she should've won the whole thing. Had she been 1st after short her 2nd place in the free skate would've been enough for the gold medal over Sarah who had skate of her life but with two severely underrotated triple-triples, horrible flutzes etc. 2002 Olympics should've been Irina;s victory even with the mistake on the triple flip in the long. But the thread is about 2002 Worlds. It was Irina's deserved victory.

Irina did deserve to win '02 Worlds, because Kwan fell in the SP; Michelle (IMO) should have won the FS portion, but that would not have made a difference.

As to the SP at the '02 Olys ... I don't think it likely that the FS would have been the same if Irina was in first after the SP. Irina always had her best FS when she was first after the SP (think '05 Worlds); Michelle OTOH, had her best FS when she had to come from behind (Worlds in '00 and '01; Nats and Worlds in '04). So changing the judging in the SP (IMO) would have put both Michelle and Irina in position to do their best ... as opposed to what happened. Don't know who would have won ... but I'd bet it wouldn't be Sarah.

 

[Mathman]

The judges for ladies at that world championship were from Russia, Slovakia, Croatia, Poland, Hungary, and Belarus, along with France, Sweden, and Italy.

We don't know which judge gave which scores, because this was the first year of the "interim system" between the two judging systems, which was basically the 6.0 system with anonymous judging.

By the way, the Belarus judge, Irina Absaliamova. now judges for Armenia.

The Hungarian judge, Judit Furst-Tombor, was kicked out of the ISU in 2004 for supporting the World Skating Federation movememnt. She was later reinstated.

The Italian judge, Fabio Bianchetti, is the son of Sonia Bianchetti -- Mr. Cinquanta's chief rival for the post of ISU president years ago. Mrs. B. was also expelled from the iSU for supporting the World Skating Federation.

 

[Tinymavy15]

So if Michelle had landed her 3/3 at worlds she still would not nessecarily have won, unless somebody else also beat Irina in the free? watching both Irina and Michelle's freeskates, at worlds, Michelle's was the clear winner for me, but taking into consideration her fall in the short....

 

[burntBREAD]

Michelle didn't fall in the short.

 

[Blades of Passion]

So if Michelle had landed her 3/3 at worlds she still would not nessecarily have won, unless somebody else also beat Irina in the free?

That's correct. It was a silly system at the time, though, with that useless qualifying round making it so only the people in the top 2 after the Short Program "controlled their destiny". The whole ordinal system in general was not perfect. If Slutskaya was placed 3rd in the LP she wouldn't win anyway, though. Kwan or Suguri would, based on whichever won the LP (Kwan being 1st in the LP, Suguri 2nd, and Slutskaya 3rd would be perfectly fine judging if you ask me).

LOL, at Worlds 2002 Kwan fell out of her triple lutz in the SP, and was marked accordingly. Would people really have her above a very clean Slutskaya, with high, perfectly landed jumps, and who received two 6.0s for presentation?

I find those 6.0's for presentation to be a joke. I would have given her a 5.7 on the second mark. Slutskaya still deserved to win the SP because of the strong tech but it was not a good program. Well skated with good speed, but the movements didn't have meaning. It was just so generically soft in an attempt to "lyrical" and "graceful", without actual attention paid to the music or well-placed elements or trying to express an impactful mood/idea.