Who did what first?

[Mathman]

Mathman, did you intend for the 4T+4T skater to double his salchow and for neither of them to attempt a triple loop?

Oops. :

What, you expect these guys to do a triple loop after all that?

So, by doubling the Salchow the first skater lost despite his spectacular opening combo. But at least he made the record book by being the first to do a quad/quad!

 

[Serious Business]

You guys are also forgetting that a 4t has a higher scale of values in GOE than a 3t. Thus, it's more advantageous to spread it out.

Of course, in practice, doing a 4t/4t would almost certainly increase a skater's PCS. And even a slightly shoddy 4t/4t is likely to get the full +GOE (for the first few times anyway).

 

[IDLERACER]

For what it's worth, THIS was the first time I remember ever seeing a backflip in competition, (back in the days when it was still legal to do one).

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes, Terry Kubicka is the first and only guy to do a backflip in compettion.

I always felt that there was no reason that Surya's landing on one foot backflip shouldn't have been legal.

Especially since no one complained about Bobrin's signature sideways flip, done here at the end of his program.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X94k7jshVKs#t=5m5s

 

[gkelly]

Yes, Terry Kubicka is the first and only guy to do a backflip in compettion.

Legally. Maybe internationally.

Offhand, I believe both Doug Mattis and Dan Hollander did it in their long programs at their final US Nationals appearances, probably for about the same reasons Bonaly did it in Nagano -- as a celebration of the end of the competitive, following-rules part of their skating career

I always felt that there was no reason that Surya's landing on one foot backflip shouldn't have been legal.

Especially since no one complained about Bobrin's signature sideways flip, done here at the end of his program.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X94k7jshVKs#t=5m5s

Here's Robert Wagenhoffer doing a backflip and a "Wagenhoffer cartwheel" or "Wagenhoffer flip" one after the other -- this is from a pro competition many years later, but he was also doing the latter move in the early 80s, about the same time as Bobrin, but here from a flip takeoff as opposed to Bobrin's inside axel takeoff.

I think the difference is that 1) the cartwheel move doesn't go completely upside down, so a failure is less likely to result in severe head and neck trauma, and 2) the cartwheel move makes more use of skating edges curving on the entry to generate the aerial portion rather than purely acrobatic skill

 

[mousepotato]

I always felt that there was no reason that Surya's landing on one foot backflip shouldn't have been legal.

Not sure what you mean; it should have been legal or illegal?

They described it as inverting your body head over skates and landing on two feet. SB got around that by only landing on one. Being a former gymnast it was no problem for her. The rule was then changed to all back flips. I can see why, it's more gymnastic that skating.

Especially since no one complained about Bobrin's signature sideways flip, done here at the end of his program.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X94k7jshVKs#t=5m5s

What Bobrin did was a barrel roll not a back flip, it would have been no different if he went right into a spin.

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes, it was a barrel roll, or, I believe the stunt's actual name is a "Bobrin", but his feet ended up over his head at one point in the roll, just as in a back flip.

 

[seniorita]

There is a rule now not place your skates above your head?? I dint know there was time when backflips were allowed in competitions!
And Bonaly's was illegal because she didnt land on two feet??I didnt understand this part

 

[gkelly]

Yes, it was a barrel roll, or, I believe the stunt's actual name is a "Bobrin", but his feet ended up over his head at one point in the roll, just as in a back flip.

Actually, his right foot was always well below the level of his head -- he was never completely inverted.

The Wagenhoffer version I posted earlier comes closer to full inversion . . . but I couldn't find an example of him doing it like that in amateur competition.

Anyway...

 

[seniorita]

Frogsonice is a very cool site, has so many goodies! Thanx for the link!

 

[dorispulaski]

I don't think Wagenhoffer did that in amateur competition? At least I don't remember him doing it.

 

[gkelly]

Maybe not. Maybe because its legality would have been questionable.


I wonder, with IJS, if one of the concerns about safety would be mitigated -- moves like this wouldn't be listed elements and wouldn't earn scores except as transitions and what they add to the choreography. And to the extent that they don't focus on actual skating skills they would take time and potentially points away from Skating Skills.

So if skaters who can do these moves reliably did include them in a program, it might be clear from the scores that there's no big reward for doing it and if those skaters are winning it's for other reasons. Therefore there would be less incentive for skaters to try to learn it and put it in competition as soon as possible in the belief it would give them a competitive advantage.

Just as lifts in synchro are only allowed at senior level, maybe some of these acrobatic singles or pairs tricks could be allowed only at senior level.

More likely, if the ISU ever establishes a competition circuit for artistic skating focused on audience appeal, such moves could be allowed there. At the highest skill level only if the discipline also includes lower levels.

 

[mskater93]

Then there's the "Stu-icide" that someone attempted (and completed successfully) at Adult Nationals last year with a Lutz. It was pretty cool and if you have IN, I would recommend watching the Championship Junior Senior Men's event.

 

[antmanb]

Then there's the "Stu-icide" that someone attempted (and completed successfully) at Adult Nationals last year with a Lutz. It was pretty cool and if you have IN, I would recommend watching the Championship Junior Senior Men's event.

Out of interest can you descirbe the move?

 

[mskater93]

Basically, it was a Lutz with a twist in the upper body and free leg. It was quite cool and I am sure my description does not do the Stu-icide justice at all. You kind of looked at it and went "do it again!"