Who is DOOMED next season?

[KwanFan1212]

I have to tell you this is the first time I heard that Lori Nichole was unwilling to do choreo for Kwan. Is this fact or just a poster's opinion?

I think it's just an opinion. Lori didn't do Michelle's programs for the 2002 Olympic season and hasn't worked with her since IIRC but there's never been anything mentioned anywhere about this decision other than MK saying something somewhere about moving in a different direction for her programs which she's perfectly in her right to do. Wow that was a long sentence, LOL

And as far as using a program for more than one season, I KNOW there are other skaters who have done this in the past (Pang and Tong come to mind...I believe they used their Phantom of the Opera LP for two seasons), so to single out the Canadians who did it this year like they did this horrible thing seems unnecessary to me. Those skaters went with programs they felt would make them better and stronger skaters this year. And it's all ready been mentioned that a few of the teams/skaters had injuries last year that cut their seasons short or delayed them from starting with the GP series so their programs didn't have a lot of mileage on them. I'm sure they wanted to be completely comfortable this year after having truncated seasons last year and if they wanted to use their old programs again, then so be it. They weren't the first skaters to do it and they certainly won't be the last either. Why make a big deal about it?

 

[Tonichelle]

Evan Lysacek isn't Canadian and he uses his programs for more than a season. most of the time... for him it works, IMHO.

Scott Hamilton admittedly used the same pieces of music over and over just changed up where they came into the program.

Johnny Weir's done it...

these are names I can come up with off the top of my head... so I agree with Heather - saying it's just a Canadian thing is a bit incorrect


As for Kwan - she's the one who went in a different direction and 'left' Lori. She did this the same season she dumped Frank. Lori was as surprised as Frank was at the change but has always been incredibly supportive.

as far as watered down teh ONLY program I remember a choreographer coming out and critisizing her for watering it down was Christopher Dean when she skated to Bolero... which I can imagine WAS just a shadow of what he'd come up with.

 

[fumie_fumie]

Tonichelle, Mathman and KwanFan1212

Thank you for your information with respect to Kwan
.

I stand corrected.

 

[chuckm]

Evan used his FSs over and over and got dissed majorly on discussion boards for doing so, especially in the US, because American skaters aren't in the habit of repeating programs from one season to the next.

Johnny went back to "Otonal" for Worlds one season because his FS wasn't working out, but it wasn't the FS from the previous season, but from two seasons back. So he hadn't been doing the old program all season.

The reason I pointed out the Canadians is because 4 of the top Canadians were all recylcing programs. You have to admit that IS rather unusual. If Lysacek, Weir, Meissner and Inoue/Baldwin all had used the same programs from last season this year, that would have been a major, major hot topic on discussion boards and the comments would not have been positive.

But it seems Canadian skaters are sacrosanct from criticism because they are all 'working on their jumps'.

 

[Mathman]

The reason I pointed out the Canadians is because 4 of the top Canadians were all recylcing programs. You have to admit that IS rather unusual. If Lysacek, Weir, Meissner and Inoue/Baldwin all had used the same programs from last season this year, that would have been a major, major hot topic on discussion boards and the comments would not have been positive.

Then again, Buttle clobbered Weir, Rochette beat Meissner, Dube and Davison creamed Inoue and Baldwin, Chan outpointed Carriere and Abbott, Virtue and Moir prevailed over Belbin and Agosto -- I don't think the Canadian World team is losing any sleep over non-positive comments on Internet discussion boards.

 

[fumie_fumie]

You never complained about Canadian skaters recycling their programs until after 2008 Worlds where Canadians all have good results. If you have issues with this particularity of Canadian skaters, you could have brought this up at the beginning of the 2007-2008 season. You watch this happen all 6 months, and never made a fuss about it until this point. The timing of your posts makes you sound like sour grapes.

I never recall you complain about Evan Lysacek or anyone on this forum re-using his program, though. He has been continuously referred to "Fire on Ice" for his Tosca (?) whatever program. Perhaps, you can take this weekend to refresh my memory. I thank you for that in advance.

I still think their reasons for keeping their programs are more than justified. Canadian skaters are not as strong with jumps as US skaters are in terms of jumps. As an example, Joannie Rochette started to land her 2A at the ripe age of 14. A top US skater would do 3-3 at that age. For weaker skaters, it is perfectly valid reason to focus on their jumps, before experimenting on new styles.

 

[chuckm]

The major advantage of reusing a FS is that the skater doesn't have to learn a new program, and can rely on the built-in muscle memory from constant repetition. The major disadvantage is that if the program is not skated cleanly the second time around, the judges see the skater on a technical plateau.

IMO, that's why Joannie Rochette's PCS scores have not gone up this season even though she was skating better than she had last season. She never was able to perform her FS cleanly, and the judges noted the lack of progress by keeping her PCS scores pretty much the way they had been the previous season.

Jeff Buttle finally did skate his program cleanly, and was rewarded for it. Same with D/D, when they finally skated cleanly at Worlds.

 

[momjudi]

Sorry to be off-topic, but do you know who is really doomd next season? American skating fans who won't be able to watch the Grand Prix events because they don't have the internet access to watch any telecasts on Russian TV, TRT or Daum.

 

[rosee]

There are some valid reasons skaters keep the same programs
- Jeff skated only 3 competitions in 2006-2007, so both his SP and LP are relatively under-used.

- Dube/Davidson: they had the horrendous accident at 4CC in 2007. They including their coaching team saw sport psychologists on a regular basis to get over it. It would have been nice if they had two new programs. However, they are courageous just sticking with the sport.

I'd say D/D kept their programs for the sames reasons as Jeff. Due to injury they missed the GPs and made their debut at nationals. They skated their programs at Nats, at 4CC and at Worlds = 3 competitions only
And this year they have a new Ex (their Barry White Medley)
I think there is a feeling that their programs have been overused because they competed a lot this year: SA, SC, NHK, GPF, Nats, Worlds

 

[Yellow Cat]

Dick & Peggy. *cries*

 

[hockeyfan228]

I agree that no one is doomed.

I think it will be difficult for Wagner and Liang to make the US team next year, unless Wagner fixes her jump problems and has a stellar performance at Nationals. I will not count out Meissner.

 

[mycelticblessing]

Actually, Jess & Bryce do a lot of elements in their programs with high quality which also matters with COP. They were all ready getting +GOE on a lot of their other elements in both the SP and LP this year, so they were in great shape to do well at Worlds simply by skating well. Just because a team doesn't have one element doesn't mean they're doomed for next season. IIRC, I believe I read somewhere that they were working on the triple twist last season but stopped after the 4CC accident. I believe they'll have that element for next season and I think they're one of the teams I'm least worried about because they seem to have their heads on very straight.

Yes, it is true that their elements which they perform are indeed high quality, I still feel that they were very lucky to medal this year. So unless they manage to come up with a superb SP and another skate of their lives in the LP next year, I highly doubt that they will be able to medal again in 2009.

 

[Winnipeg]

Why do you say they were lucky?

I thought they skated beautifully and deserved the medal in spades................

 

[Winnipeg]

wrt to Chuckiem, all I can say is let the results speak for themselves when criticising using the same program again.................

wrt the comment re S and P, for fear of starting the age old debalte again...........they should have won the GM outright so your point is questionable at best........................did you see the program that would have replkced LStory? They did have a new program that year but chose to do LStory............a wise choice IMO

 

[sillylionlove]

Dick & Peggy. *cries*

Let's add Peter and Terry and Suzie to that list

 

[Mathman]

...did you see the program that would have replaced LStory? They did have a new program that year but chose to do Love Story...a wise choice IMO

A wise choice perhaps, but still, to me, a disappointing one. Choreorgraphically, Orchid, along with the previous year's LP, Tristan and Isolde, were head and shoulders above Love Story in terms of artistic maturity.

I really think that this program was intended to be the fulfillment of Lori Nichol's choreographic vision for this team. But the choreography was too hard for them, and they went with the safer Love Story instead.

IMHO the irony was that Berezhnaya and Sikharudlidze were the ones than should have gone back to their previous year's program, Charlie Chaplin. This was their signature masterpiece (IMHO), while Meditation was little more that generic pairs blah.

A duel between Charlie Chaplin and Orchid would have been awesome!

 

[jyshin]

Choeorgraphically, Orchid, along with the previous year's LP, Tristan and Isolde, were head and shoulders above Love Story in terms of artistic maturity.

ABSOLUTELY :agree:

 

[cassieandcheetah]

A wise choice perhaps, but still, to me, a disappointing one. Choreorgraphically, Orchid, along with the previous year's LP, Tristan and Isolde, were head and shoulders above Love Story in terms of artistic maturity.

I really think that this program was intended to be the fulfillment of Lori Nichol's choreographic vision for this team. But the choreography was too hard for them, and they went with the safer Love Story instead.

IMHO the irony was that Berezhnaya and Sikharudlidze were the ones than should have gone back to their previous year's program, Charlie Chaplin. This was their signature masterpiece (IMHO), while Meditation was little more that generic pairs blah.

A duel between Charlie Chaplin and Orchid would have been awesome!

Yes, I agree wtih you about Orchid, but I have to disagree with you about Thais....Actually, I "half" agree with you, lol. The Chaplin program is my absolute favorite as well, but you have to remember that despite having done a relatively clean program in 2001 (whereas Sale missed a double axel in their free program), B/S lost to S/P at the 2001 worlds, and I read that it's because the judges deemed the chaplin program a bit "showy" and not intricate enough in terms of footwork and transition. From what I recall, I think the program had quite a few pauses and stuff like that. So according to Joy Goodwin's book The Second Mark, Mosvkina took their criticism of Chaplin to heart, and made a program that was jam-packed with elements and difficult transitions and gave them no time for rest. Both Anton and Elena purportedly hated the program for its difficulty and begged their coach to let them return to Chaplin, but Moskivina knew better, and I think judges did award them at the Olympics for doing a newer and more difficult program than Sale and Pelletier.

 

[chuckm]

I firmly believe that if S/P had repeated "Tristan" or did a new program of similar intensity and difficulty, instead of going back to "Love Story", they might have won the OGM outright.

 

[Tonichelle]

I really think that this program was intended to be the fulfillment of Lori Nichol's choreographic vision for this team. But the choreography was too hard for them, and they went with the safer Love Story instead.

A duel between Charlie Chaplin and Orchid would have been awesome!

Orchid didn't really sit well with most audiences IIRC. I know I didn't like it as much as the overly sappy romance of both LStory and T&I....