Who would likely get hit by puberty?

[silverlake22]

I have a bad feeling about Zagitova in the matter. Shape of her body reminds me 13yo Yulia Lipnitskaya in 2011-2012 season, when she won everything at the junior level. The very next season Yulia had many problems.

Zagitova is a much stronger jumper than Julia to be fair. Her jumps are big and her body type seems more athletic. Julia had technique issues early on, she was muscling the jumps since she was a little kid, plus mule kick, change of edge on both lutz and flip on and off, very low 2a, etc. I don't seem the same red flags with Zagi's jumps.

 

[vexlak]

The fact we are debating this issue is exactly what I am advocating for years. Girls should compete with girls and stay out of woman's competition. How feasible it is for a fully developed woman to compete with pre-puberty girls? How do you motivate yourself? Not mentioning any names, it just makes no sense.
No allowing to participate in the senior competitions until you 17/18 would make junior competitions more popular and the ladies will stay in the sport longer, developing that household names that is so needed for this sport. Not taking away talent from the girls, many of them end their career before it should start...

 

[gkelly]

The fact we are debating this issue is exactly what I am advocating for years. Girls should compete with girls and stay out of woman's competition.

So how do you define the difference between girls and women? By birthdate? By body shape? By technical and performance skills?

Individuals mature physically and skating-wise at different rates.

I think it does make sense to allow overlap in the age ranges for different competition levels.

And then how do skaters whose ages fit into the overlap decide which level to compete at each year? Whatever motivates herself best? Wherever she's most competitive technically? Based on whether she looks physically mature or immature for her chronological age?

 

[Perfume]

Russian coaches always say, we can tell nothing until the puberty is done. So I don't count chickens before the eggs hatch.

 

[moriel]

I think the current age limits are more than fine. There are tons of fully grown women competing sucessfully this season: in fact, all top 3 ladies at worlds seem to be fully developed women to me.

Also, what do you say about skaters like Tursynbayeva? Considering her body type, she should always remain in juniors - because its not fair that someone with such a petite build would compare with ladies who got more curvy bodies, for example (basically for same reason you dont want pre-puberty girls to compete with older ladies).

 

[Perfume]

I think the current age limits are more than fine. There are tons of fully grown women competing sucessfully this season: in fact, all top 3 ladies at worlds seem to be fully developed women to me.

Also, what do you say about skaters like Tursynbayeva? Considering her body type, she should always remain in juniors - because its not fair that someone with such a petite build would compare with ladies who got more curvy bodies, for example (basically for same reason you dont want pre-puberty girls to compete with older ladies).

Or Satoko Miyahara. She will always stay tiny, as well as her jumps. Some people just have this specific type of body.

 

[moriel]

Or Satoko Miyahara. She will always stay tiny, as well as her jumps. Some people just have this specific type of body.

Exactly.

And well, if people say its unfair to teenage girls to compete with fully developed women and the senior age cut should be changed to accomodate that... The logical conclusion is that the tiny ladies should always stay in juniors. Because its totally not fair, for example, to have someone like Satoko competing with someone like Liza Tuktamysheva. Because different body types and we now appearently can put people in juniors because body type :dev2:

 

[gkelly]

Facetious suggestion:

Any girl under 15 (but over 13) by the cutoff date must skate junior. Or can 13- and 14-year-olds over a certain height or bra cup size petition into seniors?

Any woman over 19 by the cutoff date must skate senior. Or not compete at all internationally or in federations that have no lower-level events for skaters who have reached adulthood.

Any female skater between 15 and 18 must submit to a biometric assessment between April 1 and June 30. Her BMI (and/or raw height and weight), waist-to-hip ratio, and waist to bustline ratio will be factored into a formula along with her exact chronological age to determine whether she will be allowed to compete senior or junior that year. Maybe a very few will be borderline enough that they will be allowed either option. Actual technical or performance skills will not figure into the decision.

Would that be the best way to determine competitive level, to protect the sensibility of fans who prefer to watch women compete against women and girls against girls?

Maybe the women should be required to wear makeup and the girls forbidden to do so?

This scrutiny is sure to improve the body image of all these teenage girls!


Should there be similar cutoffs to separate the men from the boys?

 

[andromache]

I think the current age limits are more than fine. There are tons of fully grown women competing sucessfully this season: in fact, all top 3 ladies at worlds seem to be fully developed women to me.

How does one justify one age limit being superior to another age limit? How does one determine the ideal age limit or cutoff from juniors to seniors? Alina Zagitova has enormous TES - should she have been able to skate senior this season? Should the current age limit actually be lower?

(I'm not really against or in favor of changing the age limit - but I am just very curious about how one determines if one type of rule is better than another, given how different all ages/bodies are.

Moreso than the women versus girls argument, from an age perspective, I am more interested in the justification we use for child labor laws versus athletics. For example, child actors follow labor laws. Teenagers who work at McDonalds follow child labor laws. Child labor laws protect children from being exploited/overworked, in part so they are able to get an education. Technically, young athletes don't get paid for their hours and hours of training and competition, so it is not paid labor in that respect, which I understand. Still, part of me wonders why we consider them so differently, especially since some training conditions may be harsher than other labor environments. I'm not advocating for "protecting" children from high levels of sport or saying that high levels of sport = child labor, but I think it's interesting to think about. We allow children/teens to put their bodies in pretty risky situations, work their butts off on a daily basis with usually little reward, compromise their educations, all because of sport. And these children can be exploited by coaches/parents etc. It may not happen often, but it does happen. Anyway, just raising some questions - but I don't want anyone to think I am 100% against children in elite sports.)

 

[sarama]

We allow children/teens to put their bodies in pretty risky situations, work their butts off on a daily basis with usually little reward, compromise their educations, all because of sport. And these children can be exploited by coaches/parents etc. It may not happen often, but it does happen.

You are absolutely right. This is a topic often overlooked, but it is a reality even at lower levels and in almost every sport. Parents and coaches looking after their own glory and not thinking about the children's best interests. Because even if the little girl or boy is willing, it doesn't mean they should sacrifice their physical and psychological health or their education, and they can't clearly evaluate what could be detrimental in the long run.

 

[moriel]

How does one justify one age limit being superior to another age limit? How does one determine the ideal age limit or cutoff from juniors to seniors? Alina Zagitova has enormous TES - should she have been able to skate senior this season? Should the current age limit actually be lower?

(I'm not really against or in favor of changing the age limit - but I am just very curious about how one determines if one type of rule is better than another, given how different all ages/bodies are.

Moreso than the women versus girls argument, from an age perspective, I am more interested in the justification we use for child labor laws versus athletics. For example, child actors follow labor laws. Teenagers who work at McDonalds follow child labor laws. Child labor laws protect children from being exploited/overworked, in part so they are able to get an education. Technically, young athletes don't get paid for their hours and hours of training and competition, so it is not paid labor in that respect, which I understand. Still, part of me wonders why we consider them so differently, especially since some training conditions may be harsher than other labor environments. I'm not advocating for "protecting" children from high levels of sport or saying that high levels of sport = child labor, but I think it's interesting to think about. We allow children/teens to put their bodies in pretty risky situations, work their butts off on a daily basis with usually little reward, compromise their educations, all because of sport. And these children can be exploited by coaches/parents etc. It may not happen often, but it does happen. Anyway, just raising some questions - but I don't want anyone to think I am 100% against children in elite sports.)

I´m personally just extremely peeved when people discuss it from body type point, as it was done a few times in this thread (aka pre-puberty girls vs fully developed women). Because its just not how it works and if we start judging by body development, it may get trickier than just age, as skaters with a slimmer build have a natural advantage, unrelated to age. So if we want to keep girls in juniors because they didnt develop curves yet, it is entirely unfair to allow skaters who are stick thin to advance into seniors overall - it is equally unfair.

Now, i totally agree, for instance, that skating is not a very education friendly sport, as teenagers end up focusing more on training rather than on studying.
But then, just raising the age for senior competition will not fix this issue. Using ladies as example: suppose the cut was 18 years. Then, the last season would be like:
Medvedeva, Mai Mihara, Wakaba Higuchi, Elena Radionova, Alina Zagitova, Marin Honda, Maria Sotskova, Karen Chen, Kaori Sakamoto, Anastasiia Gubanova, Rika Kihira, Polina Tsurskaya, Elizabet Tursynbayeva, Lim Eun-soo and tons of other amazing skaters.

Now, hope people answer honestly: would anyone watch senior ladies with such a line-up in juniors? Junior championships would be just way more interesting.
So it would just be the same, except less prize money and so on for those amazing girls. They would still train like crazy and risk injury. They would still compete a lot. They still would be under risc of being exploited by coaches / parentsThey just would not have the opportunities that seniors have.

 

[Perfume]

I agree there should be an age limit. There always should be some limit for every thing. In judo or other material arts they all have different weights, there is a reason for it.
It is hard for FS to have a limit for various body types or weights. The pool of talent isn't big. That's why we should accept all body types.
But age is a boundary people should respect. At some point you're adults and at some point you're not. It's vague but there has to be a line.

 

[andromache]

Using ladies as example: suppose the cut was 18 years. Then, the last season would be like:
Medvedeva, Mai Mihara, Wakaba Higuchi, Elena Radionova, Alina Zagitova, Marin Honda, Maria Sotskova, Karen Chen, Kaori Sakamoto, Anastasiia Gubanova, Rika Kihira, Polina Tsurskaya, Elizabet Tursynbayeva, Lim Eun-soo and tons of other amazing skaters.

Now, hope people answer honestly: would anyone watch senior ladies with such a line-up in juniors? Junior championships would be just way more interesting.
So it would just be the same, except less prize money and so on for those amazing girls. They would still train like crazy and risk injury. They would still compete a lot. They still would be under risc of being exploited by coaches / parentsThey just would not have the opportunities that seniors have.

Oh, there's really no easy solution for the issue of kids/teens in elite sport, other than to make special laws for it like with labor, such as, children under 14 can only train/compete 15 hours a week, children under 16 can only train/compete 25 hours a week, etc., (and those laws would be easily avoided/ignored without really excessive monitoring). It's nothing that's going to change - just something to think about with regard to young people in sport.

Regarding the junior/senior divide - the lineup you've given here sounds amazing.

So does: Liza T., Adelina, Ashley, Gracie, Satoko, Mao, Carolina, Anna, Kaetlyn, Gabby, Mariah, etc. The ladies you've listed are way more technically ambitious, but the ladies who are 18+ all have more maturity and many may find them more enjoyable to watch (the popularity of skating in North America hasn't increased along with its technical difficulty). Senior ladies who have struggled technically like many of the ones I have listed here may be very competitive in a division that has more emphasis on PCS than on rotations in the air. More emphasis on spins and steps, too. The most well-rounded girls like Kaetlyn would dominate, but Mao and Carolina could do easier jumps and be well-rewarded for choreography and skating skills, Ashley Wagner could spend way more time on non-jump elements instead of her eeked-out 3-3s. Adelina and Yulia could be competitive in spite of their struggles.

In an ideal world, perhaps a junior and a senior division could co-exist and be equally prestigious and competitive. But that would never happen, I understand. And the idea I'm just throwing around sounds more like a pro circuit anyway (the skating world, IMO, desperately needs a COMPETITIVE pro circuit for skaters who aren't so fantastic at their quads and triples anymore, where skaters can be pushed and motivated to develop and improve. Mostly everyone is not a natural artist like Stephane Lambiel, who continues to develop as a skater through his choreography and sheer artistic nature).

 

[gkelly]

In an ideal world, perhaps a junior and a senior division could co-exist and be equally prestigious and competitive. But that would never happen, I understand.

Maybe there could be separate events for extreme technical content (just jumps? or including other singles skills as well? -- pairs would be a different story); well-balanced program with an emphasis on balanced weighting among different kinds of skills but blade-to-ice technique perhaps most heavily; and artistic skating that allows but doesn't require a few difficult jumps (and probably wouldn't fit the Olympic spirit but there's no reason the ISU couldn't offer championships in that discipline).

And then skaters could train for and enter whichever event best suits their talents and interests. We'd probably see mostly younger teens in the ladies extreme content division, mostly older teens and 20-somethings in the well-balanced division, and mostly 20s-40s in the artistic division. There might be minimum ages for each discipline but not maximums: skaters whose bodies can no longer keep up with the extreme or well-balanced demands could move into well-balanced or artistic divisions when that better suits their current skills. And skaters who can excel in more than one division at the same time would be allowed to compete in more than one and see how they do in qualifying events where necessary.

 

[Perfume]

I still couldn't stand the fact that Lipninski's childish performance was judged higher than Kwan at 1998. So no... there should be something to be appreciated in mature skating.

 

[Ice Dance]

How does one justify one age limit being superior to another age limit? How does one determine the ideal age limit or cutoff from juniors to seniors?

It's a very interesting question and, of course, there can never be a clear answer.

But when the gymnastics age limit was lifted from 15 to 16, it changed the entire sport. The 1992 Olympics was dominated by 15 year olds. There was Butyrskaya at 19, Onodi at 18, Zmeskal 16. And a slew of 15 year olds, who took home most of the medals. The problem was not that the 15 year olds won, IMO. The problem was that there were very few gymnasts staying in the sport later than age 16.

When the age limit rose, only by one year, a huge change occurred. By the following Olympics, a multitude of 18 & 19 year old athletes were not only competing but medaling & winning. Today we have competitive medal-worthy gymnasts in their 20s right alongside the 16 year olds. That would have been all but unthinkable in 1992.

Today's gymnastics rules & scoring system have altered the sport for the worse in many ways, but IMO the age limit shift of only one year was a rule change that clearly turned out to benefit the entire sport. Are there 15-year-old girls out there being denied their shot at an Olympic gold medal? No doubt. But today's 15-year-old gymnasts know they have a chance at a far fuller career in the long run than those prior to the rule change.

So I would say that one measuring stick should be the typical retirement age. When you see too many athletes getting out too fast or after a mere season or two in seniors, too few athletes lasting past the minimum age allowed. That's a sign that the ideal age cutoff should be higher.

 

[moriel]

Well, this year, we had, on podium, for ladies:
medvedeva (her second senior season), and osmond and daleman (5th and 4th senior seasons). In top 10, we also had Costner and Wagner.
It doesnt look like the athletes are retiring too fast. There are quite a bunch of 17+ year old ladies on the top field.

 

[lyverbird1]

That seems to be changing more recently in the men's event. Patrick Chan, Yuzuru Hanyu, Shoma Uno, Boyang Jin have all medalled at either their first or second World Championships and came from high successful junior careers. I would say that the more unusual path to the top is someone like Javier Fernandez, who early in his career seemed like he was going nowhere. His first European Championship and Worlds bronze medal is 2013 was his 7th trip to each of those events. Fernandez clearly benefited from being the best in a country with no skating tradition to even have that many opportunities to compete without success and didn't achieve his potential until after making the move to Brian Orser and the cricket club. He should be a role model for other athletes - even those in countries with great depth - not to give up if you don't have early success as well as be prepared to make big changes to your life if you want to be the best.

I love that someone else has said this. It's one of the big reasons I'm a huge Javi fan - from watching him fail to make the long programme in his early international competitions to seeing him emerge as a 5 time European and 2 time world champion was a real fighter's story.

 

[Jan elle]

I still couldn't stand the fact that Lipninski's childish performance was judged higher than Kwan at 1998. So no... there should be something to be appreciated in mature skating.

I still feel so strongly about this, even nearly 20 years' on! Tara was good, but Michelle epitomised what figure skating means to many

 

[gkelly]

Can age limits enforce maturity?

Should body type be figured into the scoring?

Is this more mature than this? The skater in the second clip is slightly older than the skater in the first, and both are older than this.