Why did the crowd "suddenly" go crazy over Michelle's footwork?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Mzheng - You just got my heart pumping - different 3x3s. wow, I would be happy for just one.

Icenut - I can go along with your 'simple' footwork but I do not agree that more complex footwork works better. I remember quite clearly getting upset with Irina"s headache scene in Tosca. She could have and should have done better.

When I see Sasha struggling through that Yagudin type of footwork I also get upset. Sasha has much more fluidity than Yags and Morozov should have showed that more than the toe-pick footwork he gave her, imo.

Sometimes, simpler is better. Oh, it's all so subjective.

Joe

 

[insecureedge]

Thanks once again for the insider information, mzheng. Some questions:

But she was not seriously considering Nats and Worlds until late Nov. after working with Rafael couple of weeks and seeing the improvement in her skating.

Does the above statement mean that Kwan was considering not competiting this season, or just that she had not begun training in earnest until that point? It would seem that, whether due to her new coach or something else, she does seem more driven this season. Also, Kwan maked scrambling look good if using Tosca for Nationals was indeed a last minute decision. I do agree that the first two minutes of the LP looked entirely workmanlike; however, compared to the performance of Aranjuez last year, it did have more emotion before the excellent footwork sequence that does exactly what it's supposed to--leave a dramatic impression on the audience and judges.

As to Mathman's question of prefering simplicity or complexity, I think we fans want it all--high, effortless jumps and 3-3 combinations, difficult, quick footwork, fast spins, and interesting and innovative music, choreography, and interpretation done with genuine emotion. I can therefore see how it frustrates both Kwan's detractors and her fans when previous programs have come closer to this unreachable ideal program than Tosca does, which admittedly seems to lack a certain ambition and drive save for the final footwork. It is obviously not necessary to go to either extreme, although it may help to focus on only certain areas to emphasize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses. I think Yoshie Onda is a good example; her jumps lead to her rise, and her attempts at more classical choreography have been IMO detrimental to her skating. Perhaps Kwan is moving to being a more technical skater, which has been her weakness in the instances she has lost in the past few years. As the world's top skater (I know the ISU standings say otherwise, but I'm going by the reigning World and US ladies' champion), much more is expected, fair or not. I still don't expect to see major changes in Tosca for Worlds other than perhaps a 3-3, but hope for better things next year.

I get no sense either way of whether Kwan will compete in next season's Grand Prix or whether Slutskaya will be ready or healthy for Dortmund, but it would surely inject some excitement into proceedings.
InsecureEdge

 

[RIskatingfan]

Perhaps Kwan is moving to being a more technical skater, which has been her weakness in the instances she has lost in the past few years. As the world's top skater (I know the ISU standings say otherwise, but I'm going by the reigning World and US ladies' champion), much more is expected, fair or not.

Exactly, she seems to be going in a more "technical direction" and it's a little frustrating. She was always THE artistic female skater to me and it kind of saddens me to see that her recent programs only highlight technique and everything else is a little left behind. Of course she still puts passion in her programs, but now she only does it in the fotwork sequence. She used to do it throughout the whole program.

She has great skating skills and she has demonstrated it innumerous times over the years. What established her as a great skater was the combination of that technique with her presentation and beautiful programs. And now she's not following her own standard. Come on, other skaters with less qualities have packed and balanced programs, why does she, the one who has the ability to do it beautifully, prefers to go the easy way?

I think it's great to improve her technique (she was many times in the past accused of not improving technically) but if she's going to leave the rest behind, honestly, I sure prefer the "old" Michelle, from Salome, Taj Mahal and etc, that could have mistakes but could still blow everyone away with her amazing programs. Even Sheherezade was a better program than Tosca and Aranjuez and I thought that would be hard. She may win Worlds this year again and there's a strong possibility she will because IMO she doesn't have the strong competition she had in past years with Irina or Tara, but with these programs she has it's a disapointment.

Hopefully, next year things will be different.

 

[Kwanisqueen81]

bless you mathman

QUOTE]Originally posted by Mathman
Thanks again for the inside info, MZheng. You are a great resource for this board.

To Icenut, about "simple" programs versus "complex" ones: It does seem quite clear that the choreography of Aranjuez and Tosca is streamlined compared to some of the programs that Lori Nichol made for Michelle in the years from 1996 to 2001. I loved those programs. But I like the new Michelle, too. To me, it is a question of a different style, not necessarily a better or a worse one.

The simplified style, to me, is designed to exhibit each element in it's purity. Like a jewel -- do you like a simple setting that emphasizes the precious stone itself, or do you like a more ornate setting which complements it?

I also think that simpler choreography allows the skater better to show off her basic skating skills -- the efficiency of her stroking, the security of her edges, getting "deep into her knees" -- all that sort of thing that is sometimes obscured when too many distractions are going on.

The same question came up in pairs in Salt Lake City, and people are still arguing about it. Do you like the simplicity of Love Story or the complexity of Meditation? To me, both have their charm. So I do not necessarily take it as adverse criticism to say that one program has simpler choreography than another. Sometimes extra little curlicues and flourishes really do not add anything of substance to a program.

Anyway, I agree with Lucy. Next season will be something worth waiting for if Michelle completes, if Irina is fully recovered from her health challenges, if Sasha makes her usual strong start out of the blocks, and if the skaters from Japan continue to push the technical envelope. The ISU, by fine tuning the CoP, will to some extent be able to dictate the kind of program it prefers. This should produce (for better or for worse) more "complex" choreography as skaters try to squeeze out that last tenth of a point. I hope that this will not tend to force all the competitors into the same mold.

Mathman [/QUOTE]

Bless you mathman!!
I totally agree!!

You hit the nail on the head. I couldn't have said it better myself. Especially you "streamlined" comment. That word more than any other is what comes to my mind when I look at Aranjuaz and Tosca.

Tosca in peticular. I went back and watched Irina's and Michelle's Tosca back-to-back. I watched Irina's first(which I thought was a very good program and would probly give it the nod to michelle after a 2nd viewing) and then Michelle's.

Irina had more difficult jump entries but Michelle has more passion. I love the different interpretations of Tosca!!! Irina expressed a literal version of Tosca the Character and Michelle expresses the Character of the music. Oh joy!@@!! Both lovely but very different ways in interpretation.

I keep thinking that Michelle's is more streamlined(in a good way). I think Tosca is an attempt to skate more like Irina did circa 2001. That is to say to skate *fast* programs. Michelle skates faster in Tosca throughout the program. Plus she skates non-stop for the entire 4 minutes, extreamly hard to do.

Remember the debate in 2001 over Irina vs. Michelle. Irina skates faster and has faster spins. Michelle is more lyrical and better musicality. Those were the points I remember most. Well I think Michelle has taken those critiques to heart and this is how she responded. She know that she was getting little credit from the judges for her in-betweens and took them out in order to skate with more speed thoughout her program. I think Tosca is where this new stragedy show up the most(more so than Aranjuez)


Michelle makes up for her relative lack of in-betweens(she DOES have 3 distant moves-in-the-fields sections that I feel gets overlooked by internet fans.) by placeing her footwork at the end. I think the way she performs her footwork at 3min 45 sec in to her program leaves a strong impression on the judges and of course the audience. The fact that she is *SO* strong this late in to her program is a net plus for her 2nd mark.

 

[mzheng]

Re: bless you mathman

by placeing her footwork at the end. I think the way she performs her footwork at 3min 45 sec in to her program leaves a strong impression on the judges and of course the audience. The fact that she is *SO* strong this late in to her program is a net plus for her 2nd mark.

ITA.

Although it is steamlined in Arejanz and Tosca. But Tosca is technically stronger program than Arejanz (besides that single 3T instead of 3T/2T). All her jump passes in Tosca,except the first one,are pushed back in program. The last lutz is at 3.5 min, while around 3.0 min in Arejanz, which was done perfectly as her ex-coach Frank pointed out. Just like mpal, I didn't expect too much from her this season, given all those 'rumor' I heard about her skating. I'm only happy she is still sticking around pushing every one else to do better.

Originally posted by insecureedge
Does the above statement mean that Kwan was considering not competiting this season, or just that she had not begun training in earnest until that point? It would seem that, whether due to her new coach or something else, she does seem more driven this season. Also, Kwan maked scrambling look good if using Tosca for Nationals was indeed a last minute decision.

To answer your question. Yes, she just recently said that if its not for finding Rafael she might just not competing anymore. it indeed was a 'scrambling'. The time between SP and LP when I first heard that and pluss the practice report about the wrong tape, it totally feels like Chaotic (sorry, spelling?).

 

[icenut84]

Icenut - I can go along with your 'simple' footwork but I do not agree that more complex footwork works better. I remember quite clearly getting upset with Irina"s headache scene in Tosca. She could have and should have done better.

When I see Sasha struggling through that Yagudin type of footwork I also get upset. Sasha has much more fluidity than Yags and Morozov should have showed that more than the toe-pick footwork he gave her, imo.

Sometimes, simpler is better. Oh, it's all so subjective.

Joe

I agree, but when I'm talking about "complexity", I'm not just talking about moving your feet as fast as possible or toe-stomping down the ice - which a lot of people assume equals difficulty. Footwork like this *can* be difficult and can be done very well and very effectively. But often it's not as difficult as it appears. As a general rule, edge work is harder than toe work with regards to footwork (eek, three "work"s in one sentence! lol). As for Sasha, I too preferred her footwork sequence in (e.g.) Sentimental Waltz over Malaguena - I think the fluidity of the SW one suits her style better than the toe-steps in Malaguena. But having said that, it's great that she's experimenting and trying different things.

When I mention Michelle's "simple" content, I don't mean that she should fill her programme chockablock with quick footwork. Difficulty doesn't just come from that. It can come from incorporating turns like brackets, choctaws, rockers, counters & twizzles, rather than just three turns and mohawks. She could even just change from forward crossovers to backward crossovers with a rocker, like she did in Salome, which is higher difficulty than doing it with a 3 turn or basic inside open mohawk. She could do a different entry into a jump (even her f/w into the second 3lutz is always the same, IIRC), or hold the exit out and turn it into something else, like in Salome with the 2axel into BO pivot. Even in Scheherezade, she took her spiral directly into a turn into a spin. She does do some of these kind of moves still (like her falling leaf into the spread eagle, before a spin) but she always does the same ones. She could do a catchfoot spiral or spin, she could do another spiral position, she could do a variation on one of the spin positions or change the edge.

I think where a lot of the frustration from fans is coming from is that we know how good Michelle is, and we know that she's probably very able to do things like this. She's done things even in Fields of Gold that would be great in an LP, but she doesn't add them (like the backward change-edge spiral, the ina bauer, the hydroblade, the butterflys [not the flying spin - the move where she kicks her legs up behind her. The name for it in dancing is a butterfly], even the knee slide). She CAN do all this, and it certainly adds and makes the programme seem more. She just isn't adding it. (Maybe the suggestion that she takes all this out in order to increase her speed is a fair point.) Even in Red Violin during a camel spin she put her hand momentarily on her hip because it accentuated the music, and changed position and exited with the music. She also doesn't seem to put the spiral where her hand touches the ice in anymore - was Red Violin the last time she put it in a competitive programme?

Disclaimer - I haven't seen Tosca yet, so if she's put any of these things in, great.

 

[insecureedge]

Re: Re: bless you mathman

To answer your question. Yes, she just recently said that if its not for finding Rafael she might just not competing anymore. it indeed was a 'scrambling'. The time between SP and LP when I first heard that and pluss the practice report about the wrong tape, it totally feels like Chaotic (sorry, spelling?).

Thanks for the quick response, mzheng. Interesting that Kwan was that close to quitting eligible skating.

I agree with icenut84 that what's missing in the conception of Michelle's program are certain nuances that make things flow together in between the jumps. With all the attention on Ando's 4 salchow and the triple-triple jumpers (Pavuk, Kostner, Sokolova, for starters), I can't wholly discount a strategy to persue a technical advantage over producing choreographic masterpieces, if indeed Kwan is capable of increasing the technical difficulty in the programs. On the other hand, when things are close between two competitors, the better program often gets the nod, as some judges articulated at the Olympics (I think that G&G have the upper hand over B&A in dance for Worlds because of this).

InsecureEdge

 

[mzheng]

She also doesn't seem to put the spiral where her hand touches the ice in anymore - was Red Violin the last time she put it in a competitive programme?

Disclaimer - I haven't seen Tosca yet, so if she's put any of these things in, great.

I think that move was in Tosca right after her 2nd lutz. Start from her 2nd lutz, all of her elements were connected to each other seamlessly. The exit of previous element became the entry to the next movement. She finished BEFORE the music, which I mean she had to wait a moment to strike her final pose. The TV didn't show the full FW sequences there were interesting turns, I didn't see her foot, since she was so in the zone the camara just caught her up body. But, IMO, there were also places seems the camera can't keep up with her.

You cna down load the clips from Cruelladekwan's new websit:
http://www.cruelladekwan.com/2004.htm