Why don't these jumps matter?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Forget about being a Dancer if you can not rotate in both directions. Dancers move and rotate in both directions from day one! Figure skaters find their best side and that is sufficient for competitive purposes. Unfortunately, there is a loss of musicality without the use of skating left and skating right.

It is difficult, but I like MM's suggestion that one of the limited jumps one does in competition should be in the opposite direction.

 

[Mathman]

Easier said than done, though. And if your opponent can do seven quads and triple axel, you lose.

True, but it still seems like the way the CoP is structured there are not really any "requirements" at all. Whatever you do, you get points for it. The most points, however garnered, wins.

In fact, now that I think about it, why couldn't a skater decide, for instance, not to do a step sequence. He would give up those paltry 3 points and save his energy for his jumps.

I suppose the judges would not look kindly on that performance when it came to PCS.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^
If the step sequence is required, I would prefer it to cover the whole ice and not just a straight line. The circular one, when it is done, is much more tricky and a better test of skating ability.

 

[gkelly]

Forget about being a Dancer if you can not rotate in both directions. Dancers move and rotate in both directions from day one!

So can you show me an example of a dancer doing quadruple or higher pirouettes in both directions? Double or higher tour en l'air in both directions?

I look for examples myself.

Both jumps and pirouettes in both directions--probably a preference for clockwise

Jumps all counterclockwise, pirouettes all clockwise

This kid does the initial equivalent of +3 single axels counterclockwise, but all the rest of the turns clockwise.

This guy does one double attitude turn clockwise and everything else counterclockwise.

all turns counterclockwise

all turns counterclockwise

all turns clockwise -- aside from the other small differences between dancers, this is essentially a mirror image of the previous two examples

The first few examples show that the choreography can allow turns in both directions, and then the later ones show that dancers can make adjustments to show only their good side.

Do ballet audiences notice or care? Are there better examples from other ballets that show an emphasis on bilateralism?

 

[Layfan]

No, Joe is absolutely right. In ballet, you train every single move you do in both directions every single time. You do a routine on the bar and then immediately turn around and do it on the other side. Then you move on to the center where you would do, say, a pirouette combination on the right and then immediately have to do it on the left. And sometimes, the ballet teacher will mess you up by forcing you do start on the left side - as that is most people's weakness.

Gkelly - it might be that in performance you see the right side emphasized because when it comes time to perform the ballet dancers will go with what they are strongest at. Which is not to say they don't push themselves during performance but a fall is completely and utterly unacceptable in a ballet performance. So you wouldn't see many dancers doing five pirouettes (unless with a partner or if they were fouettes) but many of them can.

You absolutely cannot reach the top of the ballet world if you can't to pirouettes or any other move on both sides. Obviously, ballet is much more about corps de ballet and skating is more about individual so you in ballet you have to be bilateral so that you can look good in a group. Mathman's example of John Curry having the skaters break off and do double axels in different directions is wonderful. That would be typical in a dance performance. You would have ballet dancers do pique turns in opposition directions for example.

Gkelly, here's a video of a girl in working with her ballet teacher. You have to wait a couple of minutes but you see that she does every pirouette combination and - and even the fouette combination at the very end on both sides:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igKWLAbojRw

she looks at a casual glance to be equally strong on both sides - which is the goal - even though I'm sure she feel much stronger on one.

 

[Mathman]

OK, here are my suggestions. Required jumps = one from each of the six categories below. Penalty for omitting a jump category = 0 in the box reserved for that element. All categories score the same number of points. The formula for how many points a jump gets goes by the formula
.
.5x3^(n-1)

(or .5e^(n-1)ln(3) ) where n is the number of revolutions. Scores for under-rotated jumps follow the same formula, with 90 to 180 degrees counting as 2.5 revolutions.. Zayak rules, no more than two triples in the same category. 1.5 point bonus for any jump with clear (unaided eye) counter-rotation.

Examples:

single jump 0.5
double jump 1.5
under-rotated triple 2.6
double axel 2.6
triple jump 4.5
triple jump with clear counter-rotation = 6.0 (We could also give this bonus to any jump performed in the opposite direction. Or both, so that a triple Lutz in the opposite direction would be 7.5 points.))
triple Axel 7.8
quad 13.5

Incentive for training a quad loop or quad flip = your pride as an athlete, plus the glory of making the record books.

Category 1: The toe group. Toe loop, toe walley (double toe-walley = 1.5 points + 1.5 bonus = 3.0 points)

Category 2. The Salchow group. Salchow and toeless Lutz (single toeless Lutz = 2.0 points).

Category 3: The loopawalley groupawalley. Loop, walley

Category 4: (What should we call this group? It should be a name that combines Lutz and flip into one word. ) Flip and Lutz. Value of triple flip = 4.5, value of triple Lutz with clear counter-rotation = 6.0.

A flutz, flatz, weak-edge Lutz would count as “category 4 jump” with no counter-rotation bonus.

Category 5. The Axel category. All front-edge take-off jumps.

Category 6. None of the above. Anything goes, split jumps count as singles. Possibly some kind of bonus for extra features like tuck position, delayed rotation, etc. Or small jump combo including jumps of any of the other categories OK in combination, no triples. Eliminate the three jump combo except in this category. No illegal elements.

The reason for category six is that if you do triples in combination and don’t have a quad or triple Axel, then the Zayak rules will kill you. This gives you a chance to pick up a few extra points in your last jumping pass even if you are Zayaked out.

Sample program (lady with no triple Axel)

3F +3T
3Lz
3Lo
2A+2A seq
Falling leaf+3S combo or one-foot Axel+3S combo
3T
2Lz if you went with Falling leaf above, something from Category 6 if you did the one-foot Axel.

This is a nice, challenging 6-triple program with an acceptable amount of variety. (You can’t do a seven triple program unless you have a triple Axel.) If you did only one double Axel instead of the sequence, then you could do a “small jump sequence” as the seventh pass.
.
There is a slight anomaly in that you get the same number of points for a triple flip as for a triple toe. But that is evened out in the requirement that you must do a jump from every category, together with the Zayak restrictions. If you just can’t do, say, a triple loop period, then you must do a double for that category or lose it altogether. If you do not have a triple Lutz or a triple flip, then again you must do a double of one or the other or else get 0 points in that category.

No instant replays are necessary, except possibly for under-rotations.

That’s my plan and I’m sticking to it!

 

[gkelly]

No, Joe is absolutely right. In ballet, you train every single move you do in both directions every single time. You do a routine on the bar and then immediately turn around and do it on the other side. Then you move on to the center where you would do, say, a pirouette combination on the right and then immediately have to do it on the left.

Yes, I have studied ballet. But I never got to the point of attempting more than triple pirouettes. Certainly not multiple turns in the air, which are mostly men's steps.

So you wouldn't see many dancers doing five pirouettes (unless with a partner or if they were fouettes) but many of them can.

And how many of them can do them on both sides? How many even do three in both directions on stage?

You absolutely cannot reach the top of the ballet world if you can't to pirouettes or any other move on both sides. Obviously, ballet is much more about corps de ballet and skating is more about individual so you in ballet you have to be bilateral so that you can look good in a group. Mathman's example of John Curry having the skaters break off and do double axels in different directions is wonderful.

I'm pretty sure he was talking about single axels. And the point of the story was that not everyone could do them in both directions.

That would be typical in a dance performance. You would have ballet dancers do pique turns in opposition directions for example.

Triples? Quadruples?

Gkelly, here's a video of a girl in working with her ballet teacher. You have to wait a couple of minutes but you see that she does every pirouette combination and - and even the fouette combination at the very end on both sides:

And the speed of rotation is much slower than in an on-ice spin, let alone jump.

Look, skaters need to be able to do threes and double threes and brackets and rockers and counters and twizzles and loops in both directions.

Here are examples of how bilateral turning ability is taught and tested in the US. Check out the videos at the novice link especially.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Shell.asp?sid=42287

Coaches and show skaters in group numbers are often able to do single jumps or simple spins in both directions. Single axels both ways starts to be an impressive feat.

But beyond that, double let alone triple jumps or fast sustained spins in both directions, is just not possible for probably 99% of the population.

Freestyle skating has developed to value triple jumps. Therefore it favors skaters who can jump high enough and rotate fast enough in one direction to turn three times in the air. Most people don't have the ability to learn those feats, so the majority are weeded out, first when they try to learn axels/easy doubles (entry to competitive levels) and then when they try to learn double axels/easy triples (entry to elite levels).

If you change the rules to require, say, single jumps in both directions at lower competitive levels (e.g., juvenile) and axel and/or double jump both ways at elite levels (starting with novice), you're going to weed out different people.

The total number of skaters who could reach elite levels might be comparable, but you'd change the look of the sport.

Triple jumps would become as rare as they were in, say, the 1960s, because you'd weed out kids who had the potential to learn triples the good way but quit when they couldn't learn single axel the bad way. And the few skaters who had the ability to learn both reverse doubles and good-direction triples would take longer to learn the triples.

Do you want a sport that concentrates on balance and doing comparatively simple things in both directions, like ice dance or corps de ballet?

Or do you want a sport that pushes the limits of the pyrotechnical feats, in whichever direction the athlete can achieve their hardest feats, like freestyle skating and ballet solo variations?

How about a compromise, where there are significant rewards built in for jumping and spinning both directions, more than is currently the case? Maybe even alternate requirements to put ambidextrous jumpers on an even playing field with high/fast jumpers.

E.g., in the junior ladies' short program, the first jump requirement is
*double axel OR sequence of two single axels, one in each direction

In the senior ladies' SP, the combo requirement could be
*triple jump in combination with another double or triple OR two double jumps in rotated opposite directions (edge change but no other turns or steps allowed between the two jumps)

 

[Mathman]

I think one thing to keep in mind is that figure skating is not ballet. Figure skaters do things that ballet dancers can't do, ballet dancers do things that figure skaters can't do, and performers on the trapeze have yet a different arsenal of skills. (Penalties for falls are greater, for one thing. )

There is no particular mandate to take ballet as the template for a good figure skating performance.

 

[dorispulaski]

Math, I agree with that. And blasphemy though it may be, I prefer figure skating to ballet. For that matter, I prefer Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly to any of the ballet performers. I don't see at all why everything in ballet would be the pattern for figure skating. Ballet, for one thing, is not a sport. And it isn't really an entertainment either :slinkaway: it's an art. And like any art, it's the viewers' privilege to like it or not. In sport, it doesn't matter what you like, it's what the rules are, and what the judges say.

 

[Tonichelle]

Math, I agree with that. And blasphemy though it may be, I prefer figure skating to ballet. For that matter, I prefer Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly to any of the ballet performers. I don't see at all why everything in ballet would be the pattern for figure skating. Ballet, for one thing, is not a sport. And it isn't really an entertainment either :slinkaway: it's an art. And like any art, it's the viewers' privilege to like it or not. In sport, it doesn't matter what you like, it's what the rules are, and what the judges say.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Ice skating is not ballet.

Are ballet dancers propelled across the stage by the momentum of a device aside from their own body that increases their speed? No.

Do ballet dancers have to balance on an edge while moving across the stage? No.

Do ballet dancers put 10 times their body weight worth of impact on their bodies when they jump? No.

 

[Layfan]

Yes, I have studied ballet. But I never got to the point of attempting more than triple pirouettes. Certainly not multiple turns in the air, which are mostly men's steps.



And how many of them can do them on both sides? How many even do three in both directions on stage?



I'm pretty sure he was talking about single axels. And the point of the story was that not everyone could do them in both directions.



Triples? Quadruples?



And the speed of rotation is much slower than in an on-ice spin, let alone jump.

Look, skaters need to be able to do threes and double threes and brackets and rockers and counters and twizzles and loops in both directions.

Here are examples of how bilateral turning ability is taught and tested in the US. Check out the videos at the novice link especially.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Shell.asp?sid=42287

Coaches and show skaters in group numbers are often able to do single jumps or simple spins in both directions. Single axels both ways starts to be an impressive feat.

But beyond that, double let alone triple jumps or fast sustained spins in both directions, is just not possible for probably 99% of the population.

Freestyle skating has developed to value triple jumps. Therefore it favors skaters who can jump high enough and rotate fast enough in one direction to turn three times in the air. Most people don't have the ability to learn those feats, so the majority are weeded out, first when they try to learn axels/easy doubles (entry to competitive levels) and then when they try to learn double axels/easy triples (entry to elite levels).

If you change the rules to require, say, single jumps in both directions at lower competitive levels (e.g., juvenile) and axel and/or double jump both ways at elite levels (starting with novice), you're going to weed out different people.

The total number of skaters who could reach elite levels might be comparable, but you'd change the look of the sport.

Triple jumps would become as rare as they were in, say, the 1960s, because you'd weed out kids who had the potential to learn triples the good way but quit when they couldn't learn single axel the bad way. And the few skaters who had the ability to learn both reverse doubles and good-direction triples would take longer to learn the triples.

Do you want a sport that concentrates on balance and doing comparatively simple things in both directions, like ice dance or corps de ballet?

Or do you want a sport that pushes the limits of the pyrotechnical feats, in whichever direction the athlete can achieve their hardest feats, like freestyle skating and ballet solo variations?

How about a compromise, where there are significant rewards built in for jumping and spinning both directions, more than is currently the case? Maybe even alternate requirements to put ambidextrous jumpers on an even playing field with high/fast jumpers.

E.g., in the junior ladies' short program, the first jump requirement is
*double axel OR sequence of two single axels, one in each direction

In the senior ladies' SP, the combo requirement could be
*triple jump in combination with another double or triple OR two double jumps in rotated opposite directions (edge change but no other turns or steps allowed between the two jumps)

Maybe I just misunderstood your answer to Joe. I thought you were asking a question about ballet to which you didn't know the answer. But if you studied ballet (and were able to do triple pirouettes, which, kudos, I think I was able to do it about three times on pointe.) than you know how important symmetry is and that it is definitely emphasized in training.

Sorry if you misunderstood my post but I never said or meant to imply that figure skating should be more like ballet or that a singles skater should be required rotate a triple both ways, or that figure skating doesn't emphasize balance enough. I never trained as a figure skater, so I don't know what young skaters are taught but I was interested to learn from your answer that both sides are emphasized in early training.

No, I don't "want a sport" that makes things easier for the sake of a skater rotating in both directions. I just described what I believed to be true about ballet but I understand well that ballet is not an Olympic sport.

P.S. as to the above four posts, I find discussions about whether ballet or figure skating is harder/better about as enlightening as trying to have a discussion with non-skating fans about whether figure skating is "really a sport." It's never informed and not all that productive.

I was reading this thread about the jumps with interest. I admit I don't have that much to add as it really hits my limit of figure skating knowledge. But I was reading to learn and I'm sorry if I derailed the discussion into an off-topic debate about figure skating vs. ballet.

 

[Mathman]

Do ballet dancers put 10 times their body weight worth of impact on their bodies when they jump?

Yes.

http://www.dickinson.edu/uploadedFi...ent of biomechanical forces in the moving.pdf.

If this link to a pdf file isn't clickable, Google "The indirect measurement of biomechanical forces in the moving human body," Cluss, Laws, Martin, Scott, Nowicki,Mira, American Journal of Physics, 2006.

“This force can be greater than ten times the body weight. A magnitude that if experienced repetitively could produce damage to the knee area.”

 

[Blades of Passion]

Whatever the amount, it's more in figure skating.

 

[gkelly]

Maybe I just misunderstood your answer to Joe. I thought you were asking a question about ballet to which you didn't know the answer.

I am asking a question that I don't know the answer to -- do any ballet dancers do 3+ pirouettes or 2+ turns in the air in both directions (which I would consider comparable to spins and to triple jumps on ice) in performance?

From a brief survey of solo variations on youtube, my conclusion is the answer is that it's very rare and that most solo variations are just as one-directional as most figure skating programs.

It does appear that dancers try to train both sides equally but that they choose their best side for the big tricks in performance.

I'm sure there are exceptional dancers who can do big tricks in both directions, but since it never seems to be mentioned, it doesn't seem to be very important in the context of wow-'em-with-bravura tricks.

I'm willing to be proven wrong.

But if you studied ballet (and were able to do triple pirouettes, which, kudos, I think I was able to do it about three times on pointe.)

Hah, I never said I had mastered them, just that I was working on them. And I was barely able to do singles on pointe, but I only did pointe for about a year.

Sorry if you misunderstood my post but I never said or meant to imply that figure skating should be more like ballet or that a singles skater should be required rotate a triple both ways

My earlier post was more in response to Ivy's:

While we humans are decidedly 'sided' - prefering on side or the other, but I would think that if being balanced, centered and symetrical was emphasised at the beginning of skating I think we'd be suprised how many kids could grow to rotate both directions. We've only had triples for about 50 years, and only recently were skaters expected to land 6 or more triples in a competive program - who knows what they'll be doing in 50 more years. In the sport I grew up in, dressage, all the "tricks" had to be competed both directions and you were penalized if they were not the same. Horses, like us, are 'sided' - but no ice or skates involved!

My point is that skaters are rotating a lot faster than horses, and that the preference for rotating one direction over the other is magnified at greater rotational speed, and with greater (curving) speed entering and exiting the move. The faster you're rotating, and the faster you're traveling into and out of the rotations, the bigger the difference in comfort/quality/possibility between the good side and the bad side. The difference may be negligible with single jumps or slow spins, but extremely significant with triple jumps.

Ivy suggested that triples in both directions would be possible if only skaters trained both directions equally, and I'm saying that even with 50 years of training that way starting right now, I don't think you'll find more than a handful of skaters who could achieve the ideal of triple jumps (or fast spins) in both directions.

I'm also still wondering about other sports where people do triple twists in the air.

Ballet rotations are in between horse rotations and sports rotations in terms of rotational speed. Maybe 3 revolutions per second is the cutoff point at which bilateralism becomes impractical. Moves that rotate that fast are very rare in ballet -- I want to know whether the dancers who can do those rare advanced moves can do them on both sides. So far I still think the answer is no.

I never trained as a figure skater, so I don't know what young skaters are taught but I was interested to learn from your answer that both sides are emphasized in early training.

In skating skills, not in jumping or spinning. And not only in early training.

But twizzles are required elements on tests are new in the US this year. I'm still curious how well the average mid-level skaters will be able to master multirevolution twizzles in their bad direction.

 

[ivy]

Well I'm sure that skaters and coaches will continue to push the tech bubble - I certainly hope so! Skating governing bodies should encourage this. If things are hard, counter-rotating jumps, taking off on a forward inside edge, jumping in the opposite direction, then they should given a bonus in the points. I'll leave it to those who are in the sport to figure out the details. Lutzes being worth more then flips is a great example of this already in place.

It seems to me a well landed jump in figure skating would actually end up in less stress on the body compared to a jump done to the same height in ballet shoes. Because the blade glides on ice, much of the energy would be translated into motion - no such advantage in ballet shoes. Of course landing on a skate blade to get that glide seems harder then landing on the ball of your foot.

 

[ivy]

After a day or two or wondering to myself "Who was that skater from Minneapolis that could jump both directions, that people were all excited about but never quite broke through?" - I remembered - Rohene Ward. He discusses jumping both directions in an interview here:

http://www.goldenskate.com/articles/2005/102605.shtml

Nice that's from our very own website here!

He seems attribute the ability to early ISI training and a personal decision to continue focusing on both directions as the jumps got harder.

 

[Mathman]

Do ballerinas jump into the air and land on point? If so, why don't they break their big toe in every performance?

 

[Layfan]

^ haha. Strength! No actually, I can't think of a rotating jump off the top my head that lands on pointe. But ballet dancers do jump on pointe. For example, there's a move in which you would do little jumps on your toe in a row while your free leg does a rond de jambe. Hurts like a XXX

Actually, pointe just plain hurts. I remember going to school every day with bleeding toes and sometimes when I was sitting in class my quads would start shaking... ah the memories. Bright side, I've never been in as good a shape as when I was 16

gkelly - I imagine that you are right and when it comes to performance, dancers favor one side over the other. Also, since it IS a performance and not a competition it's not really a matter of showing what you can do on both sides but coming up with good choreo so it doesn't really matter. I think the dancers in the audience would notice and be impressed if a skater did a series of fouette turns on side then other but it's not really what you go do a ballet performance to look for is it? I mean, you wouldn't choreograph that into a ballet for the heck of it.

Here's a good example of why ballerinas must be good on both sides. It doesn't answer gkelly's question of whether ballet dancers often do multiple pirouettes on both sides in a performance. But believe it or not, this is the most evil combination I ever had to do. Doesn't look hard - actually the steps themselves are on the basic side for a pro ballerina. But locking hands like that - you have to do keep up with the rest of dancers and execute it completely and utterly perfectly, otherwise you get four dancers bobbing up and down at different times and falling all over each other and it would be a disaster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbY_FIyXPFg&feature=fvst

Sorry, I know it doesn't answer the question, but looking around on youtube, I just couldn't help posting it.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Figure Skating is not ballet, yes. It is closer to acrobatics. If one prefers to see big acrobatic tricks on ice, so be it. That is your taste in dance. No problem.

Dance, I believe is defined as body movement in a rhythmic way, with or without music, so Ballet and Figure Skating as well as Pantomine, Tap, Folk, Flamenco, and, of course, Acrobatics, etc., are regarded as dance forms and will be the subject of critics geared to knowing their differences.

With so many forms of dance, one can choose those which appeal to them. One should also acknowledge that competitive figure skating and professional show figure skating are two different styles of figure skating.

Personally, I like all the forms especially those Kelly, Astaire musicals which brought to the dance lover so many wonderul new and different moves. I like competitive figure skating, too, but it has become very restrictive, and the only new moves are extra air rotations. Sporty - yes. Artistic - bleh.