Why don't these jumps matter?

[mskater93]

^^^
It's definitely a Wrong Edge Takeoff, but it is not treated as such. WETs are reserved for Lutzes and Flips only.

Actually, it still takes off the forward outside edge, but the free leg is swinging freely to the side instead of through and the skater never rolls up to the toe pick on the take off but kind of slips up into the air of the middle of the blade, so it's NOT a WET.

 

[mskater93]

Good position, Ivy, and nothing wrong with your selection of the Arts.

Ballet should never have been a part of Figure Skating in the first place. The early skaters did not show much in the form of dance. It was strictly sport in those days. Figure skating has its own style. Ballet has influenced figure skating somewhat since, I believe Tenley Albright did perform her Free Skate with the aforementioned aesthetics. If you watch Henie's amateur competitions, she never had much of a stretch in her legs, but with Hollywood transforming her, it was pure body positioning dance on film.

Hopefully ballet's influence is lessening. For me, I prefer modern ballet to the classics. I'd just like to see figure skaters grace the ice with all the flow, showing their interpretation with the music. While that is not asking too much, it doesn't show up with many skaters.

Jackson Haines, the father of modern figure skating (19th century), used ballet as his influence and put skating to music. He founded the Austrian school of figure skating.

 

[Tonichelle]

Actually, it still takes off the forward outside edge, but the free leg is swinging freely to the side instead of through and the skater never rolls up to the toe pick on the take off but kind of slips up into the air of the middle of the blade, so it's NOT a WET.

I'll have to type up Kurt's description when I get home tonight. It's a really good visual.

 

[Layfan]

Good position, Ivy, and nothing wrong with your selection of the Arts.

Ballet should never have been a part of Figure Skating in the first place. The early skaters did not show much in the form of dance. It was strictly sport in those days. Figure skating has its own style. Ballet has influenced figure skating somewhat since, I believe Tenley Albright did perform her Free Skate with the aforementioned aesthetics. If you watch Henie's amateur competitions, she never had much of a stretch in her legs, but with Hollywood transforming her, it was pure body positioning dance on film.

Hopefully ballet's influence is lessening. For me, I prefer modern ballet to the classics. I'd just like to see figure skaters grace the ice with all the flow, showing their interpretation with the music. While that is not asking too much, it doesn't show up with many skaters.

I wouldn't mind seeing fewer "nutcrackers" and "swan lakes" and such in figure skating and see more interesting programs that are truly original. Heck, as you note, even ballet has gone far beyond those staples and now ballet dancers will move to almost any kind of music and do all kinds of things on pointe. Sure - they perform the classics - just like orchestra's will never stop performing Beethoven's 9th - but ballet companies have never stopped exploring.
I don't hope that fewer skaters will pay attention to line and turnout. Sorry, but for me it completes the picture. I'm absolutely mesmerized by Kim Yuna. On the other hand, she would just that much more exquisite if she turned out her leg and pointed her feet.
And I don't necessarily think skaters should be pretzles. Michelle Kwan looked exquisite to me. She was no pretzel. But actually, she did pay attention to line and to pointed feet. And it helped paint the picture she did. For that matter, although flexibility is obviously extremely important in ballet, it's more about forming the correct line - The relationship between your back and legs in an arabesque for instance.
I do realize that pointing your feet can't possibly be the most important thing in skating and I can understand that it's far more valuable to concentrate on edge working and jump technique. But let's face it - skating is not at all the same thing it was in the age of Henie. It is very much about dancing on ice and music, so skaters might as well look good while they're dancing.
And stretch, lines and attention to feet, back position, and turnout - whether you are intending to flex or point your feet or turn in or out is important in all kinds of dance, incuding modern and jazz.

Just my own personal bias that I can't get rid of.

I agree with Ivy that it would only impoverish skating to ignore the bueaty of dance that inspired such things as the layback in skating.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Actually, it still takes off the forward outside edge, but the free leg is swinging freely to the side instead of through and the skater never rolls up to the toe pick on the take off but kind of slips up into the air of the middle of the blade, so it's NOT a WET.

In many cases, that is correct, but so many skaters do make a wonky edge of the forward outside and switch over to the flat blade.

However, I would appreciate your comments on my accusation that WETs only pertain to lutzes and flips.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I wouldn't mind seeing fewer "nutcrackers" and "swan lakes" and such in figure skating and see more interesting programs that are truly original. Heck, as you note, even ballet has gone far beyond those staples and now ballet dancers will move to almost any kind of music and do all kinds of things on pointe. Sure - they perform the classics - just like orchestra's will never stop performing Beethoven's 9th - but ballet companies have never stopped exploring.
I don't hope that fewer skaters will pay attention to line and turnout. Sorry, but for me it completes the picture. I'm absolutely mesmerized by Kim Yuna. On the other hand, she would just that much more exquisite if she turned out her leg and pointed her feet.
And I don't necessarily think skaters should be pretzles. Michelle Kwan looked exquisite to me. She was no pretzel. But actually, she did pay attention to line and to pointed feet. And it helped paint the picture she did. For that matter, although flexibility is obviously extremely important in ballet, it's more about forming the correct line - The relationship between your back and legs in an arabesque for instance.
I do realize that pointing your feet can't possibly be the most important thing in skating and I can understand that it's far more valuable to concentrate on edge working and jump technique. But let's face it - skating is not at all the same thing it was in the age of Henie. It is very much about dancing on ice and music, so skaters might as well look good while they're dancing.
And stretch, lines and attention to feet, back position, and turnout - whether you are intending to flex or point your feet or turn in or out is important in all kinds of dance, incuding modern and jazz.

Just my own personal bias that I can't get rid of.

I agree with Ivy that it would only impoverish skating to ignore the bueaty of dance that inspired such things as the layback in skating.

I haven't seen a classical ballet (except on TV) in a few years, and the US has a great company that specializes in the classics. I find the City Ballet which is rich in Ballanchine creations and all that music not composed for ballet much more to get my wow up. If you are in the New York City area, check out Ballanchine's Jewels. Emeralds is to die for with no story attached, and who knew about Faure's music? I can visualize Tessa and Scott skating to it. The story is in the performers.

There are many forms of Dance including Skating where the body positions should flow with the music. Ballet positions are one category, but Character Dancing has many forms of positions. For example, who would want to see ballet arms in a Flamenco?

 

[ivy]

There are many forms of Dance including Skating where the body positions should flow with the music. Ballet positions are one category, but Character Dancing has many forms of positions. For example, who would want to see ballet arms in a Flamenco?

An excellent point. And I also have seen more then enough Swan Lakes etc as FS programs. Ballet just seems like the basis of so many of these dance traditions, even if they break the rules.

It just seems so often that many skaters don't really think about carrying their arm positions from the shoulder to the finger tips, or their legs from hip to toe. I know they have a million other things to think about, but it's the details that take a perfomance to the next level. I think about the great tradition of Russian pairs skating and how ballet and dance influence their presentation - it really made for some beautiful moments on ice!

 

[Layfan]

I haven't seen a classical ballet (except on TV) in a few years, and the US has a great company that specializes in the classics. I find the City Ballet which is rich in Ballanchine creations and all that music not composed for ballet much more to get my wow up. If you are in the New York City area, check out Ballanchine's Jewels. Emeralds is to die for with no story attached, and who knew about Faure's music? I can visualize Tessa and Scott skating to it. The story is in the performers.

There are many forms of Dance including Skating where the body positions should flow with the music. Ballet positions are one category, but Character Dancing has many forms of positions. For example, who would want to see ballet arms in a Flamenco?

Well, yes, Flamenco is totally different of course. But form is extremely important in Flamenco. I don't know why but Flamenco kind of bugs me. Probably for the same reason ballet bugs other people. There's something kind of rigid about it. We had to take Flamenco one summer in my ballet studio as part of the whole studying lots difference types of dance thing. It was fun, don't get me wrong. But after going to see several shows I had to kind of admit it just isn't my favorite dance form.

The whole point of modern dance of course is to be more flowy, that is very true. But good form is still important and I guess I just think it should be important in skating too.

I've seen jewels Also remember seeing Firebird, also great. I also went to a City Ballet performance and I did like but I don't know I guess I'm kind of addicted to the perfection of New York City Ballet and ABT.

p.s. Frankly, I could stand to see fewer Flamenco inspired programs in skating, too. Unless your name in Lambiel, of course.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Jackson Haines, the father of modern figure skating (19th century), used ballet as his influence and put skating to music. He founded the Austrian school of figure skating.

and People loved it., but it was pure SHOW skating. Haines put the music together with the tricks, but when was it instituted into championship competitive skating?

A little tid bit: Roller Figure Skaters call a sitzspin a Jackson. That was his big show stopper.

 

[Olympia]

I wouldn't mind seeing fewer "nutcrackers" and "swan lakes" and such in figure skating and see more interesting programs that are truly original. Heck, as you note, even ballet has gone far beyond those staples and now ballet dancers will move to almost any kind of music and do all kinds of things on pointe. Sure - they perform the classics - just like orchestra's will never stop performing Beethoven's 9th - but ballet companies have never stopped exploring.
I don't hope that fewer skaters will pay attention to line and turnout. Sorry, but for me it completes the picture. I'm absolutely mesmerized by Kim Yuna. On the other hand, she would just that much more exquisite if she turned out her leg and pointed her feet.
And I don't necessarily think skaters should be pretzles. Michelle Kwan looked exquisite to me. She was no pretzel. But actually, she did pay attention to line and to pointed feet. And it helped paint the picture she did. For that matter, although flexibility is obviously extremely important in ballet, it's more about forming the correct line - The relationship between your back and legs in an arabesque for instance.
I do realize that pointing your feet can't possibly be the most important thing in skating and I can understand that it's far more valuable to concentrate on edge working and jump technique. But let's face it - skating is not at all the same thing it was in the age of Henie. It is very much about dancing on ice and music, so skaters might as well look good while they're dancing.
And stretch, lines and attention to feet, back position, and turnout - whether you are intending to flex or point your feet or turn in or out is important in all kinds of dance, incuding modern and jazz.

Just my own personal bias that I can't get rid of.

I agree with Ivy that it would only impoverish skating to ignore the bueaty of dance that inspired such things as the layback in skating.

I so agree with you about beauty of line. The "vocabulary" of dance always makes skating more compelling to me. It doesn't have to be out-and-out ballet, skated to Swan Lake. A lot of it is in the carriage of the upper body and the movement of the arms. I see it in Yuka Sato (I don't know what dance training she has, but I'm guessing yes), in Michelle, and in Mao. And I remember Caryn Kadavy, who had extensive ballet training. Not to mention Katherine Healy, a child skater who later had a career in ballet and then resumed performance skating. Such an approach makes the music come alive, and it actually makes the jumps look stronger as well.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^
I understand fans liking one style of skating as ballet-like. That seems to be the rule for Ladies performances. They are not much in varying that style. The Men, on the other hand, seem more like experimentalists with music and we have a variety of performances: Think Bradley, Weir, Rippon, Abbott, and of course: Yagudin, Lambiel, Amodio, Hanyu - just to name a few. The Ladies, to me, all have the same style. The Men have their Line as in the character dance. I even noticed it in Juniors last night. Much more fun to watch and judge.

 

[antmanb]

I always wonder why Oksana was priased to gills about her balletic style when it always just annoyed me that she would stand on the ice or worse, in some professional routines, by the barrier and do barre exercises. Someone once eloquently put it here - why would someone on skates represent Swan Lake in a way other than fluidly (like the swans actually move), why would a skater do an impersonation of a ballet dancer impersonating a swan?

The things that are common to many different dances that are useful in skating are things like posture, lines, carriage, but doing "ballet fingers" is all good and well but for me i'm interested in the skating - the connection between ice and blade. Dress yourself up as a ballet dancer all you like but at the end of the day it's the skating i'm interested in. If i wanted to see ballet i'd go and watch one.

Ant

 

[Mathman]

^ The other thing is that this is supposed to be a sport. When a skater is three-quarters of the way through his rotations in a quad Salchow, he is not thinking about whether he has ballet arms or Flamenco arms.

 

[Layfan]

^ The other thing is that this is supposed to be a sport. When a skater is three-quarters of the way through his rotations in a quad Salchow, he is not thinking about whether he has ballet arms or Flamenco arms.

Well, yeah, but what about when they are in the middle of a footwork sequence or a spin or a spiral. Clearly they are plenty concerned then with their arms and everything else especially if they ARE dancing to a flamenco or a ballet. Who is arguing that a man should have so-called "ballet arms" when they're doing a quad? But who can argue that figure skating is supposed to be a blend of artistry and atheletisim? I don't get it

Btw, obviously, ballet is also a blend of artistry and athleticism Ballet dancers can't get a way with perfromcing difficut drinks with bad form and lines, though.

Speaking of arms, I can't imgine doing a double pirrouette without my arms in first position - the way it is taught because that is the easiest way and it helps the rotation, much the same way as the way a skater uses his arms helps him do a quad. But the really good ballet dancers can do pirouettes with their arms in fifth (above their heads) or many other ways. Just like some skaters chalenge themselves to do jumps with their arms above their heads. Not quads, of course, but you know what I mean. I don't think the principles between the two disciplines are all that different.

Or actually, probably a better comparison would be the skaters who can change arm positions with such control and grace during spins. My guess is that pirouettes have more in common with spins that jumps. Joe's probably right the saute de basque is prabably closer to the double axel.

In skating, blade work is important but in ballet you have to learn do dance on pointe - where proper "feet down" technique is as important as "boot down" in skating

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It's funny in the dress code at a banquet women all want to have different dresses while men feel more secure looking like all the men at that party. Yet in figure skating, women seem to want to be ballet-like while men want to show-off differently. C'est la vie.

 

[ivy]

I totally agree that skating starts with the relationship the blade to the ice. The blade on an edge, inscribing a circle into the ice, with turns, spins and jumps evolving from that circle. Turned out hips, pointed toes, soft elbows, wrists and fingers continue the circle, started by the blade on the ice, up through out the body. To me, that circle is the essence of skating - whether to classical or contemporary music. Deviate from it, work against it, but do it intentionally.

 

[Layfan]

nicely put. Can't think of anyway to say it better

 

[Olympia]

It's funny in the dress code at a banquet women all want to have different dresses while men feel more secure looking like all the men at that party. Yet in figure skating, women seem to want to be ballet-like while men want to show-off differently. C'est la vie.

What an interesting way to put it, Joe! You make a great point (pun not intended).

I think one reason that so many "women" try for a certain style is that many of them are not women at all: they're girls. There aren't as many young boys in the top ranks of skating. Girls that age haven't yet found their artistic personas, or at least many of them haven't. They're echoing what their coaches tell them to do, or emulating an idol such as Sasha. Other kinds of dance styles, such as jazz or modern, aren't something they're capable of yet. At that age, the alternative to being balletic is often just being perky.

But anyway, ballet doesn't have to be a style. It can be the vocabulary that a dancer or skater works with to assure smooth movement, flexibility, and good line and placement. A ballet-trained skater need not look like a ballerina or a danseur noble. (I think a lot of Russian skaters, especially pairs and ice dancers, take ballet, and they don't all skate "balletically.") Watch Gene Kelly do tap, and you'll see what I mean. The ballet is there, but it's in disguise. It just makes him a very different kind of tapper from, say, Donald O'Connor.

Also, there are many styles of dance that can enhance skaters' performances. I don't know what kind of effort it would take to train in some of those styles early enough to make a difference for the skaters.

One interesting example of a skater who trained rather later in ballet but definitely benefited from it--and without looking too balletic--is Kurt Browning.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^ The other thing is that this is supposed to be a sport. When a skater is three-quarters of the way through his rotations in a quad Salchow, he is not thinking about whether he has ballet arms or Flamenco arms.

The 'artistic' skater would be but that's another topic. I'm all for eliminating music, at least in the SP, and concentrating on the Sport and look for the 'artistry' in the LP with music. Why not?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

But anyway, ballet doesn't have to be a style. It can be the vocabulary that a dancer or skater works with to assure smooth movement, flexibility, and good line and placement. A ballet-trained skater need not look like a ballerina or a danseur noble. (I think a lot of Russian skaters, especially pairs and ice dancers, take ballet, and they don't all skate "balletically.") Watch Gene Kelly do tap, and you'll see what I mean. The ballet is there, but it's in disguise. It just makes him a very different kind of tapper from, say, Donald O'Connor.

Very true, Olympia. There's much to say about ballet enhancing other forms of dance. But so does acrobatics and the same Tappers you mentioned have shown that. I think the use of all dance forms for skating, depending on the music and interpretations should be multi stylists. Cirque du Soleil has nailed it!

Also, there are many styles of dance that can enhance skaters' performances. I don't know what kind of effort it would take to train in some of those styles early enough to make a difference for the skaters.

It takes time and with good choreography. Young skaters tend to rush their training, which is good for sport, but not for their performances

One interesting example of a skater who trained rather later in ballet but definitely benefited from it--and without looking too balletic--is Kurt Browning.

Yes, and he is a master artist of figure skating.