- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
rtureck said:
... or commission a symphony be written in her honor at your own expense...
Why Kwan won't go pro...ever
- Thread starter Kwanisqueen81
- Start date
... or commission a symphony be written in her honor at your own expense...
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2003
age limit
Besides the "15 by july 1" rule there are no age limits in eligible skating. Thank God!!
fanforlady2001 said:
Besides the "15 by july 1" rule there are no age limits in eligible skating. Thank God!!
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I tried to respond to this yesterday, and my stupid computer kept disconnecting from the internet, but that's a rant in another thread.
We've gotten away a bit from what I wanted to respond to, so allow me to drift back a little. I think when people are screaming for a champion to retire, it's because they want their favorite to move up, and he/she can't do that if the champion stays.
Well, here's how I see it. If your favorite skater can't beat the champion, you need that person to stay around to push your favorite.
The best rivalry in figure skating is Evgeni and Alexei. They absolutely push each other to become better. If Alexei doesn't come back, I will not be happy. Yes, Evgeni is my favorite, and yes, I sometimes want to leap through the TV screen and strangle the judges, but when Evgeni does win, that's amazing. And even when he doesn't (GPF, Olympics), the fact that Alexei was there pushed him to skate better. Plus, Alexei is also an amazing skater, so I like watching him skate, also. It is not necessary to rabidly hate your favorite's main competition.
So, if you don't like Michelle because she keeps beating Sasha, that's wrong. You should like Michelle because Sasha wanting to beat her will only make Sasha a stronger skater. Well, maybe. But you see what I'm trying to get at? I'm rambling and my latte hasn't kicked in yet...
Laura
We've gotten away a bit from what I wanted to respond to, so allow me to drift back a little. I think when people are screaming for a champion to retire, it's because they want their favorite to move up, and he/she can't do that if the champion stays.
Well, here's how I see it. If your favorite skater can't beat the champion, you need that person to stay around to push your favorite.
The best rivalry in figure skating is Evgeni and Alexei. They absolutely push each other to become better. If Alexei doesn't come back, I will not be happy. Yes, Evgeni is my favorite, and yes, I sometimes want to leap through the TV screen and strangle the judges, but when Evgeni does win, that's amazing. And even when he doesn't (GPF, Olympics), the fact that Alexei was there pushed him to skate better. Plus, Alexei is also an amazing skater, so I like watching him skate, also. It is not necessary to rabidly hate your favorite's main competition.
So, if you don't like Michelle because she keeps beating Sasha, that's wrong. You should like Michelle because Sasha wanting to beat her will only make Sasha a stronger skater. Well, maybe. But you see what I'm trying to get at? I'm rambling and my latte hasn't kicked in yet...
Laura
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2003
" This seems quite peculiar to me. If a person doesn't care for Michelle's skating, if he or she finds it uninteresting and overrated -- OK, that's what the remote is for. Switch over and watch a little curling on the other channel when Michelle is performing, then come back to see the next skater, if you like him or her better.(?)"
I think that you may have missed the mark a bit.
There are skaters who provide fridge breaks for me, the ones I fast foward over on tape, but they are ususally down in 26th place, not winning the event.
Then there are the skaters whom I love to hate: the ones who are good, but IMO are lacking in some areas and/or happen to beat a favorite of mine. I would never turn away, but it frustrates me when I see them as overmarked, overhyped, held up, etc...
I think that this is what Kwan is for some people: not boring, but overhyped. Let's face it, no one is as famous as she is.
I think that you may have missed the mark a bit.
There are skaters who provide fridge breaks for me, the ones I fast foward over on tape, but they are ususally down in 26th place, not winning the event.
Then there are the skaters whom I love to hate: the ones who are good, but IMO are lacking in some areas and/or happen to beat a favorite of mine. I would never turn away, but it frustrates me when I see them as overmarked, overhyped, held up, etc...
I think that this is what Kwan is for some people: not boring, but overhyped. Let's face it, no one is as famous as she is.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I just love Educated Skating fans. Fans who truly know the sport. Someone like you who gets the bigger picture & doesn't rant because Plushenko or whoever doesn't win. & I have to agree with you. Alexei & Evgeni is the best rivalry in the sport right now. Being that Irina is now out of the picture. Because like Alexei & Evgeni, Michelle & Irina were in the same boat. & Lord knows I wish Alexei all the best. Because the Mens competition is boring with out him there Pushing Evgeni & with out evgeni pushing alexei.PrincessLeppard said:I tried to respond to this yesterday, and my stupid computer kept disconnecting from the internet, but that's a rant in another thread.
We've gotten away a bit from what I wanted to respond to, so allow me to drift back a little. I think when people are screaming for a champion to retire, it's because they want their favorite to move up, and he/she can't do that if the champion stays.
Well, here's how I see it. If your favorite skater can't beat the champion, you need that person to stay around to push your favorite.
The best rivalry in figure skating is Evgeni and Alexei. They absolutely push each other to become better. If Alexei doesn't come back, I will not be happy. Yes, Evgeni is my favorite, and yes, I sometimes want to leap through the TV screen and strangle the judges, but when Evgeni does win, that's amazing. And even when he doesn't (GPF, Olympics), the fact that Alexei was there pushed him to skate better. Plus, Alexei is also an amazing skater, so I like watching him skate, also. It is not necessary to rabidly hate your favorite's main competition.
So, if you don't like Michelle because she keeps beating Sasha, that's wrong. You should like Michelle because Sasha wanting to beat her will only make Sasha a stronger skater. Well, maybe. But you see what I'm trying to get at? I'm rambling and my latte hasn't kicked in yet...
Laura
For me the Best thing for the sport is not retirement. But, Graduation of the younger skaters. Like the Mens field. The Men graudated to the top of their field. Not because of retirement. How, long did Alexei & evgeni wait before they took over the top spots. Not, to long because, they fought their way through. They took on Tood & Elvis & the other top skaters at the time. They skated, they Improved with time & Then was able to pass them. They did not wait for retirement. That is what the ladies will have to do. Unlike Nancy or Tara & Kristie all who retired from the sport. Michelle is still around & I think that she will have to be dragged away from it with her teeth marks still on it.
Berthes Ghost--Thank you for the corrections--man, you have an amazing memory for detail!--and correct you are on all of them. Even though it's true that skating in non ISUsanctioned events such as "Ice Wars," I still think that the USFSA's sanctioning of COI for US eligible skaters but not SOI stinks. Though I'm sure there is more going on behind the scenes than I know about.
And I partially agree with you that pro skating fizzled out because of the skaters. The partial is because I also think the networks and cable glutted TV with pro skating events from '92 to about '97-98. It was the same competition with the same skaters doing the same programs. About four skaters made it interesting for the first four years, IMO: Kristi (because of her choreography and keeping up the technical content); Paul Wylie (because he's Paul Wylie); Kurt Browning (even though it took him a couple of years to hit his stride as a pro); and Oksana Baiul (not that she ever skated well, but at least in the beginning, so many people wanted her to; then it just became a trainwreck--very sad).
Me, I think Ilia Kulik has the charisma and the skating chops to put tons of butts in the seats (and if you've been to ice shows, you know what I mean--sorry, bad Rgirl); but what he doesn't have and didn't go after is PR. I think his relationship with and subsequent marriage to Ekaterina Gordeeva put him in a unique position for an OGM, that is, NOT wanting the limelight, plus it was controversial. All I know is, Ilia got the biggest screams of any skater at every SOI I went to, which was every one he was in, and not just from New York audiences but from polar opposite Phoenix audiences too. (Hmm, polar and Phoenix--bad word usage.) I don't know why SOI thinks they are getting more bang for their buck with Todd Eldredge than Ilia, but it's their buck.
Mathman,
I would agree that most Michelle fans don't care if nonKwan fans want her to retire, but it does seem to annoy a lot of them and the minority that do care sure are LOUD! From that minority, you would think that Michelle was the most hated, unfairly treated champion that ever lived. It's what I call the "Michelle as Martyr" approach to being a Michelle fan. But it is the minority, definitely. Just as the minority of antiKwans are LOUD! So we have two relatively small groups being very LOUD about their minority opinions, IMO.
As to your "Maybe I'm wrong," I'm going to cuddle up with my two straw men (ooh, the little one is so cute!) and defer to Kwanisqueen's post, the one that says "Rgirl is right!"
In general, I still say there is nothing wrong with going pro and that pro skating is not only more than just gimmicks, but also contributes to eligible skating mostly via its innovative choreography, even though I wish there was no distinction between eligibles and pros. This ISU sanctioning of this and not that seems awfully arbirary to me. Ultimately I'd like to see a balance between what what I'll call "currently competing eligibles" and "master skaters" (don't say "master skaters" too fast--I'll get in trouble). For those eligibles who have the desire and talent, are not injured, and want to continue with some competition but perhaps emphasize the more creative performance side of skating, let them slide into it. SOI, when done well, is a great place for people to see elite level skating done in a whole-show format. Nothing against COI, I love it too, but a great SOI group number, be it for a few skaters or the whole bunch, is like nothing you can see anywhere else, and I don't want to see that go away. As Kristi said, for her it was about "lifestyle." I'd like the top skaters to continue to have that choice. Though if SOI keeps doing stupid things like dropping Kulik from the cast, forget 'em.
Rgirl
And I partially agree with you that pro skating fizzled out because of the skaters. The partial is because I also think the networks and cable glutted TV with pro skating events from '92 to about '97-98. It was the same competition with the same skaters doing the same programs. About four skaters made it interesting for the first four years, IMO: Kristi (because of her choreography and keeping up the technical content); Paul Wylie (because he's Paul Wylie); Kurt Browning (even though it took him a couple of years to hit his stride as a pro); and Oksana Baiul (not that she ever skated well, but at least in the beginning, so many people wanted her to; then it just became a trainwreck--very sad).
Me, I think Ilia Kulik has the charisma and the skating chops to put tons of butts in the seats (and if you've been to ice shows, you know what I mean--sorry, bad Rgirl); but what he doesn't have and didn't go after is PR. I think his relationship with and subsequent marriage to Ekaterina Gordeeva put him in a unique position for an OGM, that is, NOT wanting the limelight, plus it was controversial. All I know is, Ilia got the biggest screams of any skater at every SOI I went to, which was every one he was in, and not just from New York audiences but from polar opposite Phoenix audiences too. (Hmm, polar and Phoenix--bad word usage.) I don't know why SOI thinks they are getting more bang for their buck with Todd Eldredge than Ilia, but it's their buck.
Mathman,
I would agree that most Michelle fans don't care if nonKwan fans want her to retire, but it does seem to annoy a lot of them and the minority that do care sure are LOUD! From that minority, you would think that Michelle was the most hated, unfairly treated champion that ever lived. It's what I call the "Michelle as Martyr" approach to being a Michelle fan. But it is the minority, definitely. Just as the minority of antiKwans are LOUD! So we have two relatively small groups being very LOUD about their minority opinions, IMO.
As to your "Maybe I'm wrong," I'm going to cuddle up with my two straw men (ooh, the little one is so cute!) and defer to Kwanisqueen's post, the one that says "Rgirl is right!"
In general, I still say there is nothing wrong with going pro and that pro skating is not only more than just gimmicks, but also contributes to eligible skating mostly via its innovative choreography, even though I wish there was no distinction between eligibles and pros. This ISU sanctioning of this and not that seems awfully arbirary to me. Ultimately I'd like to see a balance between what what I'll call "currently competing eligibles" and "master skaters" (don't say "master skaters" too fast--I'll get in trouble). For those eligibles who have the desire and talent, are not injured, and want to continue with some competition but perhaps emphasize the more creative performance side of skating, let them slide into it. SOI, when done well, is a great place for people to see elite level skating done in a whole-show format. Nothing against COI, I love it too, but a great SOI group number, be it for a few skaters or the whole bunch, is like nothing you can see anywhere else, and I don't want to see that go away. As Kristi said, for her it was about "lifestyle." I'd like the top skaters to continue to have that choice. Though if SOI keeps doing stupid things like dropping Kulik from the cast, forget 'em.
Rgirl
Laura, like Panther, I totally agree with you. And let me add this: trying to beat those who used to be better than you, that's what competitions are about! It's not like in civil service, where you mostly wait for others to get old and retire(no offense intended)
.
Michelle without Irina, Irina without Michelle, Sasha without Michelle ....... it just wouldn't be the same, they wouldn't work as hard as they do know, and we wouldn't enjoy the sport as much as we do! Add to this those little surprises à la SLC .... (in the ladies!)
Laura, we agree upon the Alexei-Evgeny-topic. Alexei is my all-time favorite male skater, but he is a competitor and needs to be challenged. Plushenko pushes him to skate his very best, and vice versa. Both of them are amazing to watch, and their royal battles are among the very best I ever saw in figure skating.
Needless to say how much I would love to watch both of them life in Dortmund!
.Michelle without Irina, Irina without Michelle, Sasha without Michelle ....... it just wouldn't be the same, they wouldn't work as hard as they do know, and we wouldn't enjoy the sport as much as we do! Add to this those little surprises à la SLC ....
(in the ladies!)Laura, we agree upon the Alexei-Evgeny-topic. Alexei is my all-time favorite male skater, but he is a competitor and needs to be challenged. Plushenko pushes him to skate his very best, and vice versa. Both of them are amazing to watch, and their royal battles are among the very best I ever saw in figure skating.
Needless to say how much I would love to watch both of them life in Dortmund!
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
rGirl -
_Quote__________________________________________________
"I would agree that most Michelle fans don't care if nonKwan fans want her to retire, but it does seem to annoy a lot of them and the minority that do care sure are LOUD! From that minority, you would think that Michelle was the most hated, unfairly treated champion that ever lived. It's what I call the "Michelle as Martyr" approach to being a Michelle fan. But it is the minority, definitely. Just as the minority of antiKwans are LOUD! So we have two relatively small groups being very LOUD about their minority opinions, IMO." Unquote
I don't think it's a question of 'hate'. I think the annoyance is that the wish for MK to retire is never really explained except a few who think it's the 'Age Thing'. It appears the retirement wishers don't want to say 'so that a younger skater can move up'.
And if MK has been around too long the question arises for the MK fans: Why not also mention Elena S and L; Irina, Angela, etc., all whom happen to be older than MK?
I think the retiremen wishers should speak out and maybe a discussion would arise rather than loud noises.
Joe
_Quote__________________________________________________
"I would agree that most Michelle fans don't care if nonKwan fans want her to retire, but it does seem to annoy a lot of them and the minority that do care sure are LOUD! From that minority, you would think that Michelle was the most hated, unfairly treated champion that ever lived. It's what I call the "Michelle as Martyr" approach to being a Michelle fan. But it is the minority, definitely. Just as the minority of antiKwans are LOUD! So we have two relatively small groups being very LOUD about their minority opinions, IMO." Unquote
I don't think it's a question of 'hate'. I think the annoyance is that the wish for MK to retire is never really explained except a few who think it's the 'Age Thing'. It appears the retirement wishers don't want to say 'so that a younger skater can move up'.
And if MK has been around too long the question arises for the MK fans: Why not also mention Elena S and L; Irina, Angela, etc., all whom happen to be older than MK?
I think the retiremen wishers should speak out and maybe a discussion would arise rather than loud noises.
Joe
Joe ... It used to bother me a little that people would be calling for her to retire because of her age, when they didn't say the same for skaters older than she. I definitely feel some of those just wanted her out of the way "to make room" for another skater. My answer to them was ... if she is too old and not capable of competing to the highest level anymore, let the younger ones step up and beat her. I should think nothing would be more satisfying to a young skater looking to break through and make their mark.
After last season, nothing anyone says bothers me anymore.
After last season, nothing anyone says bothers me anymore.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2003
Joesitz said:
I'll speak out although I think I made my point in my other post. I simply enjoyed skating more when there was more turnover. Skaters tend to get into a groove, some might call it a rut, and after a number of years pass you get the feeling you're watching the same program set to different music, and it becomes boring.
I don't want anyone to retire to allow someone else to win. I just miss the old days of staying for one perhaps two Olympic seasons and then moving on to other endeavors. I feel the same way about Elena and Irina, Angela as well. (With the men it's Shep Clark that makes me cringe) They're wonderful skaters, no one can deny that, I'm just tired of seeing the same faces over and over. If Sasha's still competing in 7 years, I'm sure I'll feel the same about her.
peach ... I do understand what you are talking about with turnover. For me though, there is a difference with someone staying in and continuing to win ... versus others who have not made any progress or moved up in the standings. This is just my opinion of course, but I think the minute Michelle can't compete to win ... she'll be gone. Noone will have to ask her to leave.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
peachstatesk8er said:
Good for you Peachst8sk8er - Nice honest answer - not that I agree with but definitely from the heart.
Joe
I do not think it is anyone's business WHEN a skater goes pro. I think people that complain are in need of lives. A skater determines when he/she wants to go pro. I doubt they sit around thinking about when their fans should retire from their jobs (that they might happen to be the best at doing and win awards year after year for what they've accomplished at work)
I think it's sour grapes, and people with too much time on their hands.
I think it's sour grapes, and people with too much time on their hands.
"Anyway, bottom line -- it's not on Michelle to step down, it's on the other ladies to step up.
Mathman"........Amen to that, Mathman..........
I find it interesting that people keep saying that Michelle needs to improve, that she needs to "up the ante", and that her skating is "sameness in itself"........what are they looking at when they watch her skate? Barry Bonds could hit a zillion home runs, and his swing is perfection.........when you do it right the first time, there's no need to "up the ante".............42
Mathman"........Amen to that, Mathman..........
I find it interesting that people keep saying that Michelle needs to improve, that she needs to "up the ante", and that her skating is "sameness in itself"........what are they looking at when they watch her skate? Barry Bonds could hit a zillion home runs, and his swing is perfection.........when you do it right the first time, there's no need to "up the ante".............42
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Joe,
I think you may have misread the part of my post you referred to:
Originally Posted by Rgirl:
"I would agree that most Michelle fans don't care if nonKwan fans want her to retire, but it does seem to annoy a lot of them and the minority that do care sure are LOUD! From that minority, you would think that Michelle was the most hated, unfairly treated champion that ever lived. It's what I call the 'Michelle as Martyr' approach to being a Michelle fan. But it is the minority, definitely. Just as the minority of antiKwans are LOUD! So we have two relatively small groups being very LOUD about their minority opinions, IMO."
You said, "I don't think it's a question of 'hate'. I think the annoyance is that the wish for MK to retire is never really explained except a few who think it's the 'Age Thing'. It appears the retirement wishers don't want to say 'so that a younger skater can move up'."
When I say "hate" it's in the sentence, "From that minority, you would think that Michelle was the most hated, unfairly treated champion that ever lived." "Hate" refers to the claim made by a minority of Kwan fans that Michelle is always having the most terrible, horrendous things said about her (true, a minority of antiKwan fans do say terrible, horrendous things about her) and is therefore "hated" by many. The word "hate" as I used it never had anything to do with reasons those who want Michelle to retire. Although I'm sure there are some out there who want Michelle to retire because they hate her. And why do they hate her? Just because.
But of the minority who do want Michelle to retire, I agree with you that it is out of a feeling of annoyance.
Rgirl
I think you may have misread the part of my post you referred to:
Originally Posted by Rgirl:
"I would agree that most Michelle fans don't care if nonKwan fans want her to retire, but it does seem to annoy a lot of them and the minority that do care sure are LOUD! From that minority, you would think that Michelle was the most hated, unfairly treated champion that ever lived. It's what I call the 'Michelle as Martyr' approach to being a Michelle fan. But it is the minority, definitely. Just as the minority of antiKwans are LOUD! So we have two relatively small groups being very LOUD about their minority opinions, IMO."
You said, "I don't think it's a question of 'hate'. I think the annoyance is that the wish for MK to retire is never really explained except a few who think it's the 'Age Thing'. It appears the retirement wishers don't want to say 'so that a younger skater can move up'."
When I say "hate" it's in the sentence, "From that minority, you would think that Michelle was the most hated, unfairly treated champion that ever lived." "Hate" refers to the claim made by a minority of Kwan fans that Michelle is always having the most terrible, horrendous things said about her (true, a minority of antiKwan fans do say terrible, horrendous things about her) and is therefore "hated" by many. The word "hate" as I used it never had anything to do with reasons those who want Michelle to retire. Although I'm sure there are some out there who want Michelle to retire because they hate her. And why do they hate her? Just because.
But of the minority who do want Michelle to retire, I agree with you that it is out of a feeling of annoyance.
Rgirl
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
rGirl - At this point in MK's eligible career, and my personal feelings toward her, the minority, if that's what it is, view is totally irrelevant to me especially if their desire is for her to get out of eligible skating. It is indeed annoying because it is boring. I would be more interested in reading something more intelligent for putting MK down. I might even agree.
For MK, Irina, Elena S and L, Angela can quit whenever they want to. End of discussion. As has been said before, let the younger ones come up to MK's talent and I believe MK will take the hint. Until then she's rocking on.
Joe
For MK, Irina, Elena S and L, Angela can quit whenever they want to. End of discussion. As has been said before, let the younger ones come up to MK's talent and I believe MK will take the hint. Until then she's rocking on.
Joe
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