Why male figure skating has become stale/lackluster – thoughts after seeing the GPF | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Why male figure skating has become stale/lackluster – thoughts after seeing the GPF

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
There's no one single variable.

Some people just don't have the mental toughness for competition. Or maybe they have a chronic injury but are keeping quiet about it. Or maybe they have bad technique that deserts them whenever nerves set in. Etc., etc., etc.

In addition to all of the above, I would also add that some skaters are just naturally able to jump higher than others. That ability can be trained to some degree with pliometrics and better technique in the use of speed and edges to get into the air, but largely it's just genetic.

So the natural big jumpers have more time in the air (fractions of seconds) to complete the rotation above the ice and start checking out, or to attempt another rotation. And when they get tired or get a less than optimal takeoff and don't jump as high as usual, they still have time to get the rotation done just as they return to the ice.

Whereas the smaller jumpers will usually finish rotating just as they return to the ice, which is often sufficient. But when they get tired or get a less than optimal takeoff and don't jump as high as usual, they can't finish the rotation before returning to the ice, so they have to either cheat the landing (which can be tiring in itself if it takes more work to hold onto an edge forced around on the ice than to just ride the flow of a perfect landing), or else they fall.

That's why men do can do harder jumps and combinations than women or can do the same jumps with more height and consistency. For the most part, they can jump higher.

And the very smaller jumpers never get any consistent triple jumps at all, so you never see them on TV. Unless they go into ice dance. ;)

Plus, all the other factors evangeline mentioned can also come into play with both big and not-so-big jumpers.

In addition, I suspect that skaters now "backload" their jumps due to the CoP's 10% bonus points after the 2 minutes mark. Aside from all the factors contributing to unsucessful jumps, do you think the backloading jumps is also the factor contributing to the inconsistency in jumping after the 2minutes mark? That's my question.

Naturally, skaters tended to either frontload or evenly distributed jump elements in the pre-CoP era. Hence, my question is that does the CoP contribute to inconsistency in jump elements and also de-limits program make up? Those were my original questions.

Ah, OK. I wasn't clear from your first post if your problem with today's skating was the fact that the programs look too alike or that there were too many mistakes.

Not all skaters can or should backload their jumps. In most cases one GOE point is worth more than 10% of the jump, so if saving the jump for the bonus period is likely to result in lower quality or outright failure of the jump, it's strategically wiser to put it at the beginning before the lactic acid builds up. That's why we still mostly see the hardest jumps in the first few elements of the program, although the better conditioned skaters do try to take advantage of second-half bonus.

IJS long programs do follow more of a template than 6.0 programs did because the well-balanced program rules are stricter -- e.g., only 8 jumping passes total are allowed, now only three spins.

The short program layout didn't change until this year, when they took out a step sequence (or spiral sequence for ladies). So there was much less change in the way short programs were put together under IJS.
Allowing men to do quads and to do triple axels as the solo axel, changes that started in 1998-99 under 6.0, did encourage male skaters to frontload their short programs more than when the hardest allowed program was triple axel combo, triple lutz, and double axel.

Anyway, I've said often enough that I would like to see changes in the long program well-balanced program rules to allow more variety between different skaters' programs while still keeping them on a level playing field. But many of the potential alternative layouts I envision would actually be more aerobically challenging than what we tend to see today. So we'd still mostly see the same kind of layout we see now. And/or, we'd see more mistakes. Especially early in the season.

The sport just keeps getting more difficult as the best skaters of each era try to outdo each other and the next-best skaters try to keep up.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Way back before the 1980 Olympics, I remember reading an article about the figure skating prospects of the U.S. In it, they said that pair skater Randy Gardner and some other kinds of athletes (I don't remember whether they were skiers, football players, or what) were put through a series of fitness tests, and he beat most or all of them. Nowadays, with the demands increased (and with practice time and off-ice training time also increased), figure skaters must be among the best-conditioned athletes in the world. I honestly don't know how their bodies survive intact, especially in the case of a long career like Plushy's. Sometimes the thought of the demands on their bodies makes me feel a bit guilty for even watching them, let alone criticizing them. But like all of you, I love the sport so much, and so must these skaters.

Gkelly, I agree with your point about some skaters being higher jumpers. I think ballet dancers call the ability ballon. I remember watching ladies' skating during the Kwan era and realizing that people like Slutskaya and Volchkova had a natural advantage over almost everyone else. Slutskaya was able to harness that advantage and combine it with other strengths, while Volchkova never really was. (I think she tended to get anxious on the ice.) And then of course there was the original, Midori Ito, who I think could jump her height....
 

herios

Medalist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Yep. Actually, Daisuke, Patrick, and Nobu's short programs all pretty much eclipsed... oh, every other short program ever performed? All for different reasons.

Nobu skated his best ever SP here, so I am not in agreement with Cara;s message in the first place.The FS for the Mne were not in particular very good across the board, but they were pretty close. And this jump count issue, and COP, actually, many years ago, under 6.0 all you were doing was COUNTING the jumps, and nothing more, now, choreographically, you can see a lot of variety and programs which challenge the skaters in performance and interpretation. Never mind that with the transitions and the energy they put in the spins and footwork makes their task so much more demanding.
 

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
I won't comment on the COP or the order of the jumps, but I think the sport is missing some of its top characters. I don't think any of the men are as good as the men from about 10 years ago or so. They could land a quad (usually), didn't fall (usually) and had definite personalities.

I still smile thinking about the 1999 short programs. It was the first year they showed the GP on ESPN, and Alexi Y. dressed like a piano and played his own leg! Evegeni did the Sabre Dance and just stood in one place and flailed his legs for what seemed like half the program (probably only a few seconds, LOL!) They were funny, but they were so good! From that era (with some ovelapping early or later in their careers) Elvis Stojko, who always did a kung-fu routine (love it or hate it), Phillippe Candelorio and his "characters", preppy, golf-playing Todd Eldredge, Tim the quad king who could jump but had no artistry, and of course, Alexei Urmonov and his poofy costumes and odd mistakes (he once dressed as a magician and tripped over his own cape in a pro contest) and the sport was fun. You looked forward to seeing these guys, because they were great competitors and showmen. Not so much this bunch. They're talented and nice, but none of them are "larger than life." (I'm sure many will disagree, though--don't mean to diss your favorites.)

Really, the most interesting character is Chan, when he falls and wins, because we can all complain, and complaining is amusing. When he doesn't fall and wins, he's as dull as the rest of them. Does the COP strip routines of their personality? Maybe, but I still contend Alexei Yagudin of the early milennium could do a great program with personality even with the strict scoring rubric.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Did you watch Yuna, Mao and Joannie in Vancouver? I could throw in Mirai as well.
Can I write one opinion that is not challenged by you? Despite their technical prowess, those you named were also entertaining.

The subject is about Men and only you would change it to the one Division you are interested in. No? I suppose it's legal to change subjects, and it seems you take advantage of it. Shall we drop the topic and talk about the Women? Your discussions about Men, Ice Dance and Pairs could fill a Flyer.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Indeed some skaters do jump higher than others. Is it in the criteria for the PC scoring? Is the so called "Flexibility" included in the PC scoring? If so, then I believe we can eliminate skaters who do not have natural abilities.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I agree with Cara! All the mens programs are becoming the same in layout! There's no individuality in layouts. The ISU may as well just mandate layouts. I don't like saying backloading anymore. Programs are "midloaded." Most skaters do three jumps and then at 2:14 start preparing their next jump and jumps are basically over by 3:00. That's not backloading it is midloading. All for a 10% bonus. The rules have changed on quads and GOE and all that but you still have the 3 jumps and then halfway point like all the other jumps. I would prefer to have the ending of a program be slow then what you have now from like :30 to 2:14 which seems so slow now with spins and steps and just skating around! You are seeing changes of music and programs from season to season and same jumps layouts. This is not creativity because the COP has locked in some certain advantageous things to do like midload.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
^^^
It's probably the CoP. The points are so important now. But it also pertains to the lackluster of Ladies, Ice Dance and Pairs also. The 6.0 system didn't put that much emphasis in the Program as a whole. It was more about the skater's performance.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
a. Opening with three jumps, first of which are a featured jump, either quad or triple axel, followed by two other triple jumps, some of which are combination jumps;

Cara's description in the first post is just how Plushenko always began his programs. It wasn't about performance; it was about SPORT, and he often won the competition. Boys in general are more interested in sport and winning any which way they can.

No reason to debate this I guess but how do the rest used to begin? Out of curiosity I looked the free programs of last two groups in SLC and Eldredge /Stojko/ Weiss / Dambier /Dinev/ Liu/ Li Chengjiang/Honda/Plushenko/Goebel/Abt/Yagudin all begin with this description above, with first two jumps quads and /or axel or lutz/flip and then a spin or with 2 jump passes- spin, only Dambier and Weiss having some interesting steps between the 3 jumps and Dinev some weird march steps. Abt was ahead of his time, he should have been competing now.

Secondly I dont know an athlete , male or female who would be engaged 2/3 of his/her daily life in any Olympic Sport without considering it first of all a sport and without having the drive to win or medal in a competition.
And I wouldnt think an athlete picked a sport like figure skating and not lets say..Sailing, if they weren't interested in performing in front of audience, name them Lambiel, PLushenko or Katarina Witt. If you dont like their performance or it is not entertaining for you, this is another subject.
 
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Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
^ Good point. All of these men are great athletes and if performing and music and dancing didn't speak to them they might have chosen another sport.

I found Cara's original description of similar the programs are very interesting.

Problem with me is that I've always thought competitive figure skating was repetitive. When I was more a casual fan I thought a lot of what I saw in competitive figure skating was generic and it seemed be that the non-ice dance world had so much more imagination and variety.

But since I've started watching more closely I've noticed how different the programs are from each other if you pay attention to the details.
Besides, I've come to accept that as a competitive sport, the skaters are required to do similar things and there programs are not going to be that starkly different from each other. What figure skating, as a discipline, may lack in artistic depth it makes up for in the excitement of it being an Olympic sport.

I think it's true that COP has made some programs more repetitive. But when a skater is so good that they stand out these days - it's all the more special. I like Yuna's programs from last year better than most of the ladies programs I saw in SLC.

But this thread is about the men. Definitely, I prefer the programs of all three SLC men medalists to the the programs of the Vancouver ones ... but that was such a special Olympics for the men. They were so brilliant, especially Yagudin. Part of me has always thought that the problem with the men _ and the whole debate about fewer quads _ is that there is just no Yagudin these days.

Maybe the men need their Yuna. :)

OTH _ I love the Japanese guys. I feel they are a breath of fresh air and bring a new sense of style and coolness to the proceedings. :love:
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Cara, there is plenty of entertainiment with characters in the exhibtion numbers of the current crop of male competitors:

Patrick Chan's Don't Worry, Be Happy

Kozuka's Falling

Takahashi's (Lambielisque) Amelie


Even Kevin Reynold has a beautiful show program that suits him so well: Somewhere Over The Rainbow

I love Vener's Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life but the YT video has been taken down and he's now doing MJ instead. Talk about character and entertainment! I hope he'll do it again soon.

Lambiel of course is the ultimate artist on ice in recent years but he's just retired from competition. Watch him whenever you feel bad about male skating of today.
 
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herios

Medalist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Indeed some skaters do jump higher than others. Is it in the criteria for the PC scoring? Is the so called "Flexibility" included in the PC scoring? If so, then I believe we can eliminate skaters who do not have natural abilities.

Joe, the height of the jumps is a big part of the GOE mark. Those + GOE's are getting higher the higher the jumps are, beside the flow in and out and the difficulty of the entry.
Flexibility just allows them to do extra moves ore achieve extra stretch, but it does not have such a big impact in men
 

herios

Medalist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Cara, there is plenty of entertainiment with characters in the exhibtion numbers of the current crop of male competitors:

Patrick Chan's Don't Worry, Be Happy

Kozuka's Falling

Takahashi's (Lambielisque) Amelie


Even Kevin Reynold has a beautiful show program that suits him so well: Somewhere Over The Rainbow

I love Vener's Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life but the YT video has been taken down and he's now doing MJ instead. Talk about character and entertainment! I hope he'll do it again soon.

Lambiel of course is the ultimate artist on ice in recent years but he's just retired from competition. Watch him whenever you feel bad about male skating of today.

I concur with this, I am watching FS for about 40 years or so, and for the first decade or so, I watched more ladies than men, while today I am more excited about the men performances actually, than the ladies. And i don't feel bad at all about men skating these days at all.

Pull please for example Elvis Stojko's world champion routine from 1995 for example, and see how empty his program looks like in comparison to today, is like a tree with branches in late autumn, after all the leaves fell off.
Jumps , then bla footwork and mediocre to weak spins.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I concur with this, I am watching FS for about 40 years or so, and for the first decade or so, I watched more ladies than men, while today I am more excited about the men performances actually, than the ladies. And i don't feel bad at all about men skating these days at all.

Pull please for example Elvis Stojko's world champion routine from 1995 for example, and see how empty his program looks like in comparison to today, is like a tree with branches in late autumn, after all the leaves fell off.
Jumps , then bla footwork and mediocre to weak spins.

herios, you trying to ruin nostagia with real history? Don't you know that the older I get, the better I used to be? :)

And the big fish Grandpa caught gets bigger and bigger.
 

herios

Medalist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
:)
herios, you trying to ruin nostagia with real history? Don't you know that the older I get, the better I used to be? :)

And the big fish Grandpa caught gets bigger and bigger.

:)

Yeah, I know what you mean. Nostalgia adds a certain colour or at least shade to your glasses, isn't it?

Seriously, I got a tape from a fan who gave away some old ones and I got there the 1995 and 96 worlds. And rewatched them about two years ago.
And it was quite revealing. While ice dance looked a lot better, in terms of how much actual dance was incorporated into those routines, some of the singles looked much worse, as they lacked choreography, being all about the jumps.
Of course were exceptions there, like Michelle Kwan and LuChen in 1996, who were both mesmerizing, despite the simpler choreo than these days in terms of difficulty of the footwork,but it was such a striking comparison to see how much fs evolved under the current system vs the old, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worst. The men all they did basically was to gather speed for the jumps, spins were fillers, didn't really matter how well they were done, unless the skaters executed jumping prortfolio was even, then they came into consideration and footwork sequences, you can hardly find any memorable.
My point, men skating has evolved a lot for the better,jumps always had to be massaged in, but today they have to do tons more in their programs, much more demanding task.
 
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seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Yes but the other side of the coin, in 1996 worlds the programs looked like the same cookie or you knew right away this is an Eldredge or this is a Kwan program like?
In gymnastics the programs are so demanding now that there is no room for beautiful routines, and then you watch Seoul Olys floor routines that now novice athletes can do and they are a beauty, you see the athlete's flair.
I think the difference I see in fs as in also gymnastics now, I dont know how to explain it, if a program type was a dress, then in the past the dress used to built around the skater, it was usually all about the skater, and now the skaters try to fit inside the same dress. I think now fewer routines stand out per discipline. Like the S/S pink panther this year:)
 

Ravensque

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
I, for one, love the fact that many of the elite skaters' programs are full of transitions and choreography. I especially love a great footwork section which can be very exciting to watch and just as risky as jumps if pushed to the edge. I'm probably in the minority though, but that's how I feel.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I, for one, love the fact that many of the elite skaters' programs are full of transitions and choreography. I especially love a great footwork section which can be very exciting to watch and just as risky as jumps if pushed to the edge. I'm probably in the minority though, but that's how I feel.

I didn't like when trans and choreo are used to justify lesser jump content like at the 2010 Olympics. With Chan adding a quad he is doing a lot to make competitions like that obsolete. Chan and Takahashi are the model skaters in my view. Them going back and forth winning would be fine-though Takahashi would have to get a quad back.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
with a notice of my friend I realised after Gpf that I mind a lot the 20-30 points difference between pcs and tes in the same skater, and something worth noticing which I would like someone to explain me, how can the same jump in sp get from -3 to +2 Goe? These judges dont need an extra seminar or notification email for this? Just because the final results are correct, these details are insane. Tes becomes as objective as pcs gradually.
 
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