Will Worlds & Nats be a let down?

[Mathman]

The ISU is generating needless criticism and ill-will for the sport by all this cloak-and-dagger stuff.

BravesSkateFan posts on the "Televised SC thoughts" thread that he/she believes that the CoP protocol automatically counts a repeat of a jump as a (failed) "como." Thus "Sasha's phantom combo" received a base value of only 6.1 (the base value for the Lutz by itself), with a -2.2 GOE for no combo, but without incurring a Zayak deduction.

I don't know whether this is right or not. Has anyone looked it up?

But the main point is, why doesn't the referee come on TV and either explain the ISU rule, explain why the rule does or does not apply, or else say, "oops, we blew that one." This is what other sports do, quite to their credit. In football, for instance, there are lots of close and controversial plays (involving pass interference, say), which we get to see over and over on the instant reply, while the commentators are explaining (often wrongly) how the rule is supposed to work, then the referee makes his ruling (usually showing the commentators to be chumps, LOL.) Other times, it is clear that a mistake was made, but even in this case the referee explains to the audience why this particular ruling is "non-reviewable" and must stand despite legitimate protests.

What is the ISU trying to hide?

Mathman

PS. To Joe, Rgirl, SkatingFan5, and everyone who has been wondering about Sasha's phantom combo: Ptichka just looked up the rule, and BravesStateFan is right. The rule is quoted here (see Ptichka's last post):

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3148&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

 

[Ladskater]

No, indeed! No matter which judging system is implemented the skaters will still put their all in to their performances and that is what it is all about.

I know our Canadian Nationals will be a real "showdown" in the mens, pairs and dance. It should be exciting.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Mathman - Pitchka's explanation is quite correct. But there is a list that skaters make up. I presume this is given to judges and particularly to the Caller. Sasha was listed at 3Lx2toe. She did indeed get a 4.9 for a combo she didn't do.

Amber Corwin in Neder... was also listed as a triple but the Caller said it was underrotated and downgraded to a double - not an attempted triple. Because of the downgrading, she was then penalized by Zayak rule because she had already had done a double lutz. And there she was not given the catch phrase: attempted.

Again, I am not dissing Sasha. Had the Caller mentioned the Zayak rule the judges would have given her 0 and quite properly. I believe she would have won anyway but there is a principle here which will cause a lot of pain for contestants and much hollering by fans.

If there is hanky panky between TT and the Russian judges and ISU appointees, then the sport is going down.

Joe

 

[Ladskater]

RealtorGal:

You should read Debi Wilkes' article about the judging at Skate Canada. It's kind of interesting as she mentions some apprehensions about using the old judging system at nationals and worlds.


http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/debbi_wilkes.asp

 

[euterpe]

Has it occurred to anyone that Sasha's 'favored' treatment under CoP (and she did get very high SC marks for a Skate Canada FS with many faults) is the ISU's heavy-handed attempt to create a Grand Prix superstar? Kwan has snubbed the Grand Prix for two years now, and this year, Sasha is the only show in town (aside from Arakawa as a featured player) with Irina recovering from severe illness.

 

[Mathman]

No, I don't think so. I think that in Skate America, Skate Canada and Trophee Lalique, Sasha got the highest scores because she skated the best.

Mathman

 

[skatingfan5]

ISU rule for repeated jumps

OK, sorry for any confusion I may have added to an already confusing situation, but by reading ISU Communication #1207, on page 22 (of 24) here is the rule:

A repeated triple or quadruple solo jump, not included into a jump combination or jump sequence, will be considered as extra and not counted, but will be considered as a part of a not successfully executed jump combination and counted as a jump combination with only one jump executed. If two jump combinations or jump sequences (in total) have already been executed, the repeated solo jump will be treated as an additional element and therefore not considered.

I love the double-speak -- the jump will be "considered extra and not counted, but will be considered as a part of a not successfully executed jump combination." So in other words, it doesn't count ... but it does. I guess it's a way of having it partially count -- because there is no way that it can get more than a -2 Grade of Execution, no matter how well the one jump is done. Still, it is significantly different in that it allows partial credit for a repeated jump, rather than getting an automatic -0.1 Zayak rule deduction, as in the old 6.0 system -- and skaters will probably be revising some of their "plan B" strategies to take this into consideration for events using the New Judging System -- but kind of confusing since they can be skating under both sets of scoring for this season.

FYI:
-2 Grade of Execution for jump combination/sequence:
Minor problems in two phases or major problem in one phase of either jump as noted in Jumps (-2) or turns/stemps between the jumps with the use of the second foot or fall after the second jump.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Mathman - I don't think euroterp is saying that Sasha shouldn't have won. euroterp is saying that the ISU needs a star to keep the sport interesting. I would add that the USFSA, too. She's getting the star quality that so many fans were tired of with MK.

However, if you read the ESPN review of Lalique it does imply that both Sasha and Evgeni need a higher level of competitors to make the sport more interesting.

With so many skaters out of the GP, this may be the last of the GPs. The ISU has favored Sasha; the newsmen want more competitors of high quality.

Will we lose the GP in the future?

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Re: ISU rule for repeated jumps

OK, sorry for any confusion I may have added to an already confusing situation, but by reading ISU Communication #1207, on page 22 (of 24) here is the rule:I love the double-speak -- the jump will be "considered extra and not counted, but will be considered as a part of a not successfully executed jump combination." So in other words, it doesn't count ... but it does. I guess it's a way of having it partially count -- because there is no way that it can get more than a -2 Grade of Execution, no matter how well the one jump is done. Still, it is significantly different in that it allows partial credit for a repeated jump, rather than getting an automatic -0.1 Zayak rule deduction, as in the old 6.0 system -- and skaters will probably be revising some of their "plan B" strategies to take this into consideration for events using the New Judging System -- but kind of confusing since they can be skating under both sets of scoring for this season.

FYI:
-2 Grade of Execution for jump combination/sequence:
Minor problems in two phases or major problem in one phase of either jump as noted in Jumps (-2) or turns/stemps between the jumps with the use of the second foot or fall after the second jump.

It's more than double speak, Skatefan. (I think George Orwell is smiling somewhere up there.) To me it sounds like "We'll (the ISU selected triumvirate) decide whether an attempt of a jump was made (Sasha) or not made (Amber) and we'll also decide on the Zayak rule, too.

Joe

 

[nymkfan51]

I wonder about the GP too. It seems like something is going to have to give. Look at all the withdrawals this season ... doesn't it seem like more than usual? The skaters have so many competitions and shows now, that it is no wonder they're always getting injured. They have no real extended rest period anymore.

I have also wondered about some of the recent withdrawals ... if maybe they had something to do with COP and the poor showings of some of the skaters ... in addition to injuries.
Maybe they could could do a scaled-down GP ... no non-scoring events. I'd hate to see it disappear entirely.

 

[euterpe]

It is a real grind for the skaters, many of whom have to deal with horrendous jet lag when their two events are scheduled back-to-back. It's no wonder so many have had injuries.

Kwan is the smart one--she jumped off the GP merry-go-round, and she is healthy and happy.

 

[chuckm]

Think of this: replacing Bofrost with Cup of China was a major change in the GP. In the past, if a skater was scheduled to skate in Bofrost and then Lalique, or Skate Canada and Bofrost, it was no big deal. But travel from North America or Europe to China and back, or vice-versa, involves major, major jet lag.

It's no wonder that the CoC Ladies event was so bizarre. And it was right before the FS at the Cup of China that AP McDonough incurred her injury, explaining why she dropped from 2nd in the SP to 6th in the FS.

 

[Ptichka]

Amber Corwin in Neder... was also listed as a triple but the Caller said it was underrotated and downgraded to a double - not an attempted triple. Because of the downgrading, she was then penalized by Zayak rule because she had already had done a double lutz. And there she was not given the catch phrase: attempted.
Joe

Joe, I just went back to look at the Nebelhorn scores. Amber was NOT penalized for Zayak rules. She was given credit for the following jumps:
3Lz+2T (base 7.4, GoE -1.4)
3F (base 5.6, GoE -1.4)
2Lo (base 1.5, GoE -0.12)
1A (base 0.8, GoE -0.04)
2S (base 1.3, GoE -1)
2Lz (base 1.9, GoE -0.24)
2T (base 1.3, GoE -1)

So she got the credit for the 2Lz. If anything, if I've read the rules correctly (which is NOT a certainty), the Zayak only applies to triples and quads.

Also, the caller does not need to "mention" Zayak. The judges just mark each element, and the computer figures out the rest. Hopefully, they made the program smart enough so that when the 2nd 3T is entered, the computer converts it to 3T+combo.

Edited to add: now that I think of this, may be this is not so stupid after all. Assume the skater executes a 2nd 3S of the program -- ISU wants to discourage this, but not too dramatically. Assume the skater does a perfect 3S. However, since the judges are told to look at this as a failed combo, they will deduct more. Nah, this is too complex. Would be much easier to say that the 2nd jump, done without combo, gets a 25% deduction. Would be much simpler.

 

[Mathman]

Thanks for the clarifications Skatingfan5 and Ptichka.

About Amber, although she didn't get hit with a Zayak deduction too she still was hit hard by the caller's decision. The base score for a triple Lutz is 6.1 and for a double Lutz is only 1.9, plus, she got a -0.24 GOE on top of that, for a total of 1.66 for that element.

A triple Lutz even with a -3.0 GOE would have been 3.1.

Hmm. Now that I look at these numbers, the difference doesn't seem so great after all.

Euterpe and ChuckM, that's a good point about back to back GP events and jet lag. At Skate Canada, in two separate interviews Sasha mentioned lack of time to prepare for Skate Canada after Skate America as a factor as to why she made some mistakes in her Long Prigram -- and that's just traveling from Pennsylvania to Ontario.

Joe and Nymkfan51, that's an intriguing point about whether, perhaps because of pressure from the United States television networks, the ISU is trying to push Sasha. With Michelle on the sidelines and everyone else hurt, maybe they do figure that they need to go to extra lengths to interest American viewers.

But I don't think so. The ISU could not have anticipated so many skaters dropping out, and Sasha has skated herself into the spotlight on her own merits, not because of any television hype. ABC TV may be glad that she has done so, but I don't see any evidence of a conspiracy.

(If I did believe in conspiracy theories I would wonder if Sasha is being deliberately built up in order to hype a showdown with Michelle Kwan at Nationals. Just as it seemed for several years that the ISU was favoring Irina in the Grand Prix, especially in the GP finals, in order to build up a rivalry with Michelle at Worlds. Nah, there I go again.)

I do agree with Nymkfan51, though, about doing away with the non-scoring event. I think that the Grand Prix series is strong enough to showcase lots of skaters from all over the world, including young up-and-comers, without necessarily having a Michelle Kwan or an Alexei Yagudin in every show. If the Grand Prix faded away there wouldn't be any top level skating at all, other than a couple of fluff shows, before Nationals and Worlds.

Mathman

 

[dizzydi]

The let down would come...........if say, you were a huge fan of NNN!

Dizzy

 

[Ptichka]

The base score for a triple Lutz is 6.1 and for a double Lutz is only 1.9, plus, she got a -0.24 GOE on top of that, for a total of 1.66 for that element.

Good point. This brings up an interesting question: we mainly discuss CoP in terms of the elite skaters. They all try to do triples; the doubles are there either as mistakes or as parts of combinations. What about lower levels? How will this effect junior or even novice skating once eveything switches to CoP? Will there be enough difference between skaters, or will all scores end up ridiculously low because the jumps are not triples?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Pitchka - I wrote that from memory of reading a quote from Amber herself saying that she was doubly penalized. I think Mathman got it right. The jump was downgraded because it was seen as underrotated and the dbl was marked down severely because it was seen as overrotated. But there was no consideration that there was an 'attempted' triple which with the lower goe would have been higher than the dbl with the lower goe.

I still see a lot of conspiracy theories arising from the Caller business.

As for lower tier skaters, I think they are often given scores willy nilly. No one cares if the skater gets a 4.9 instead of a 5.1. (in the 6.0 system). But the skater does. Sad.

I also think that we as fans are glossing over these CoP scores without giving them a serious critique.

Joe

 

[Pookie]

It looks like the GP is the real let down right now, with all the withdrawals.

I don't think it will matter what scoring system they use. If they all make it back for Nationals and Worlds, I think that in itself will be exciting.