Worst Ladies Quadrenial Ever?

[drivingmissdaisy]

I hate the growling, too. Christina oversings everything. If Adelina had just left out the screaming portion of her LP music the judges would have likely given her the Euro title.

I'm a huge Adelina fan, and if I was judging I'd have given her the Euro title, but in a way I'm glad she got penalized for her terrible music. She deserves a LP so much better than that and I hope she learns a lesson and comes back next season with an Olympic-medal worthy program.

 

[pangtongfan]

i'd venture to say 1977-80 was fairly dull with world titles being swapped between two mediocre skaters, fratianne vs. pötzsch, and watanabe and allen being vastly undermarked. but yes, i'm a bit cool in my reception of the past two years. i hope worlds will turn up the heat again.

The weakest eras ever in ladies skating were 1977-1982 and 1997-2006. 2011-2012 would join those but thankfully was a much shorter period than either of those.

 

[machin]

Technical elements is what makes the sport a sport in most people's eyes. There's a reason why figures and compulsory dances don't exist anymore, and a reason why ice dancing is surging in popularity compared to before the CoP system.

This is totally wrong. I guess that's why the crowd at 2012 worlds in Nice was more than half empty (2000 persons, the worst attendance of the whole week for LPs) for dance and fully packed for ladies & men !
Ice dancing used to draw the most audiences all around the world under 6.0. Now it's only true for NA (guess why !).
Every team was interesting in their own way, the programs were very different and there was actually an interpretation even though the technical part wasn't as in your face and I agree the standart was less high (and even there, it depend what you're looking for, CDs quality has dropped dramatically since COP was introduced, no wonder why DomSha had easy time winning it in Vancouver).
Now we just have boring elements one after another, people doesn't have time left for interpretation (BroSoloviev and Weaver Poje FD from this season are great exemple of this : interpretation is only there the first and last 5 seconds of the FD, you can't know what was the idea behind those dance if you didn't learn it before seeing it ; not to mention D/W FD and V/M FD which could be skated to any just a bit dramatic piece, no story, no characters, nothing on the artistic side as it used to be seen) and just skate year after years the same routine with different music background (Belbin Agosto anyone ? Or Khokhlova Novitski). Even Pechalat Bourzat whom showed great promise on the artistic side at first sold themselves after 2008 to get more consistency. Now artistic mark is just another technical mark and judges can easily use it as they like to put who they want at the top.
Ice Dancing has no soul anymore. It's just the most boring event.

As for Ladies under this quad, I wonder why everybody wants to see baby girl jumping everywhere with no flow & basics and / or choreo (Gold and Tuktamisheva are great exemple of this). The final flight at Moscou worlds was a pure delight to watch and on a totally different level than was I've seen for years skating wise. Except the winner obviously. Even the russian (forgot her name) had a very good LP (Volozhinskaya, a huge thanks ! It shows what real choreographer are unlike Morozov) despite her less than stellar basics.

 

[FlattFan]

D&W's FD last year would win World every single year since the inception of Ice Dancing.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think, in order to satisfy people, we should institute the following rule.

1) For every triple jump you land, you get a gold medal (no edge calls, URs allowed)
2) For every three PCS categories you win, you get a gold medal.
3) For every level four spin and level four footwork you achieve, you get a gold medal.

This means that jumps would outrank everything else (in ladies, there would be 12 possible gold medals (3-3, solo triple, triple axel in the short; eight triple long) handed out for jumps vs 11 handed out (we'd get rid of transitions in one of the skates, just because, so 4 PCS categories twice, 1 once = 3 gold medals; three spins in the short, three in the long (six more), two footwork sequences (2)). We could expand the technical panel to be more diligent with levels and edge calls/URs.) The championship podium would be decided ranking the number of gold medals, with the triple jumps being the tiebreaker

Using this method

Carolina Kostner gets 10 gold medals.
Elizaveta Tuktamisheva gets 13 gold medals
Adelina Sotnikova gets 15 gold medals and the championship title.

CanadianSkaterGuy, why is it that the lesser elite skaters have awesome jumps, but mediocre skating skills, choreography, interpretation, spins, footwork, performance and transitions and why should that be only a secondary consideration when deciding who's the best?

I think because skaters sometimes haven't 'matured'. It's ridiculous... no matter how 'developed' a skater is in the junior ranks, they will always be given double digit PCS hit against top skaters when they move up. And top skaters don't necessarily improve, they've just been on the scene longer so their PCS gradually increases year after year, and they rely on this advantage. As a result of this advantage, veterans don't risk harder jumps and have secondary jump layouts. Also, lesser elite skaters usually have better spins and sometimes have even harder footwork than top skaters.

You're telling me that Carolina or Mao or Yu Na should be able to go out there and do only 2 or 3 triple jumps and still place in the top 10 at Worlds? Because with their PCS boost, they probably could.

In a competition, I don't care how well a top skater (or any skater for that matter) "performs" or "interprets" if they don't land the jumps. Save that for the exhibitions. It's hard to defend our sport against shifty judging and whatnot when 3 and 4 triple performances will still outperform 6 and 7 triple performances.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

This is totally wrong. I guess that's why the crowd at 2012 worlds in Nice was more than half empty (2000 persons, the worst attendance of the whole week for LPs) for dance and fully packed for ladies & men !
Ice dancing used to draw the most audiences all around the world under 6.0. Now it's only true for NA (guess why !).
Every team was interesting in their own way, the programs were very different and there was actually an interpretation even though the technical part wasn't as in your face and I agree the standart was less high (and even there, it depend what you're looking for, CDs quality has dropped dramatically since COP was introduced, no wonder why DomSha had easy time winning it in Vancouver).
Now we just have boring elements one after another, people doesn't have time left for interpretation (BroSoloviev and Weaver Poje FD from this season are great exemple of this : interpretation is only there the first and last 5 seconds of the FD, you can't know what was the idea behind those dance if you didn't learn it before seeing it ; not to mention D/W FD and V/M FD which could be skated to any just a bit dramatic piece, no story, no characters, nothing on the artistic side as it used to be seen) and just skate year after years the same routine with different music background (Belbin Agosto anyone ? Or Khokhlova Novitski). Even Pechalat Bourzat whom showed great promise on the artistic side at first sold themselves after 2008 to get more consistency. Now artistic mark is just another technical mark and judges can easily use it as they like to put who they want at the top.
Ice Dancing has no soul anymore. It's just the most boring event.

At least ice dancing is now more of an actual sport. There was no movement in the standings, and placements were chosen long before skaters stepped on the ice. Now teams actually have to skate well. I found many ice dancers to be overly dramatic and the performance aspect would far outweigh the technical aspect. The crowd at Nice was emptier because skating popularity in ice dance has declined as a whole.

DomShabs winning the CD in Vancouver was a good example of how judges had more flexibility to fix standings... but there was no hiding in the OD and FD when DomShabs were technically outskated by V/M and D/W.

I'd have to disagree about the final flight being a delight to watch. It was nice to watch, but I thought Carolina had a fantastic skate, but it was marred by how easy it was. There was no skater who really skated lights out... they just did what they needed to do to place. The final flight at the Olympics however was very exciting to watch because the skaters actually brought the technical chops.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

CSG, thank you. You don't care how well anything else is done if they don't land the hard jumps. All I can say is I do care.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I do care actually how good other aspects of skating are. But I think that the emphasis is being placed more on PCS marks and the discrepancy that judges create in this mark is leading to the TES mark and any technical superiority being rendered irrelevant. This is a performance sport, but still a sport. I was saying I don't care how good an overall skater somebody is if they don't land the jumps.

What is the point of skaters with inferior PCS even competing if they're going to be held down when they skate lights out and a better all-around skater with major errors and an inferior jump layout will be given an advantage (even with these errors)?

It's people saying "So and so has wayyy better skating skills and interpretation, etc. And this younger less-developed skater has comparatively poor skating skills and interpretation." so why not just give the first one the gold medal before they even get on the ice, since if they skate well they'll win and if they skate poorly they'll still probably win because they're such a better skater compared to everyone else.

 

[gmyers]

This thread has gotten to the point where I am totally confused as to why figure skating has jumps

 

[coolboogie22]

This thread has gotten to the point where I am totally confused as to why figure skating has jumps

I agree, I'm asking myself that Figure skating in single is a sport not an artistic or dance sport, so normally, I think that the main focus in a performance should be 70% in the jumps and 30% in the components score.

So, to see that Kostner and Asada win competition because of high component score and not a lot of jumps in the program make me feel angry.

Such a Stupid sport sometimes and corrupt judges who are too much subjective in their mark!!!

 

[evangeline]

What is the point of skaters with inferior PCS even competing if they're going to be held down when they skate lights out and a better all-around skater with major errors and an inferior jump layout will be given an advantage (even with these errors)?

The point is that these sorts of skaters with inferior PCS will be compelled to improve their PCS so that they too will become better all-around skaters. Do you think Jeremy Abbott's skating skills came out of nowhere? Or Daisuke Takahashi's interpretation and performance ability? No, they worked hard to improve these aspects of their skating, as much as they worked hard on their jumps. Why can't they be rewarded for these qualities the same way you want jumps to be rewarded?

 

[pangtongfan]

The point is that these sorts of skaters with inferior PCS will be compelled to improve their PCS so that they too will become better all-around skaters. Do you think Jeremy Abbott's skating skills came out of nowhere? Or Daisuke Takahashi's interpretation and performance ability? No, they worked hard to improve these aspects of their skating, as much as they worked hard on their jumps. Why can't they be rewarded for these qualities the same way you want jumps to be rewarded?

Exactly. CanadianSkateGuy seems to want the sport of figure skating to become just a jumping competition like it used to be, and that is not what it will or should be. At times things go to far like when Patrick Chan had a 6 fall margin over everyone else for a few years, even over skaters who arguably have better artistry and are comparable and better in some other areas than he is (eg- Takahashi) but for the most part the new system has worked in rewarding more all around skating.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Coming off of US nat'ls and looking ahead towards worlds I'm feeling a bit deflatated. The veterans are flagging and the youngsters are still struggling to find thier way. I could say the same about 2011 and 2012. If YuNa rocks it maybe I'll feel differently....hmmm. Am I just over romanticizing the past?

Thinking about it a bit more, I'm gonna say no, you're not romanticizing the past.

2006/7-2009/10: This quad was insane. The triumph of Japan, the explosion of Yu Na Kim, other nations producing skaters that will stand proud in their skating history (Kostner, Rochette, Lepisto, Korpi, Meier). Only the USA really faltered.

2002/3-2005/6: Kwan's last gasp, Japan slowly gearing up, the beauty of Cohen, the triumph of Slutskaya.

However, I think the next quad will be amazing.

 

[Selene]

This thread has gotten to the point where I am totally confused as to why figure skating has jumps

I agree, I'm asking myself that Figure skating in single is a sport not an artistic or dance sport, so normally, I think that the main focus in a performance should be 70% in the jumps and 30% in the components score.

So, to see that Kostner and Asada win competition because of high component score and not a lot of jumps in the program make me feel angry.

Such a Stupid sport sometimes and corrupt judges who are too much subjective in their mark!!!

The current system doesn't adequately reward technical difficulty in Ladies figure skating. The system is set up to reward technical difficulty (triple axels and quads) in Men's figure skating. But because it is physically impossible for 99.999% of women to land triple axels and quads, the most difficult jumps/jump combinations in Ladies figure skating aren't adequately rewarded. Mao Asada and Carolina Kostner's continued wins over better technical skaters are akin to Jeremy Abbott winning Men's competitions over better technical skaters, such as Yuzuru Hanyu, based on his beautiful skating skills. The ISU would never allow that to happen, but they have allowed Ladies figure skating to become a pretty ice princess contest where skaters (except for a few young girls) aren't pushing the technical envelope because the system doesn't reward it.

 

[Mathman]

I think that the main focus in a performance should be 70% in the jumps and 30% in the components score.

The current breakdown is 70% tech, 30% "second mark" (CH-INT-P&E).

However, the tech score is more than just jumps. It also includes non-jump elements (spins, spirals, footwork sequences), together with Skating Skills and Transitions.

I think the breakdown for the typical skater is something like this:

jumps 36%
Non-jump technical elements 14%
Skating skills and transitions 20%
Performance values 30%

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Of course, you get a skater like Kaetlyn Osmond, that has CLEARLY paid attention to the components aspect - she's a strong performer, competes technically challenging choreography loaded with transitions and actually has solid interpretation skills (her skating skills are below the top senior skaters, imo). And she's been rewarded for it with PCS.

So it's weird to hear so much made in the way of excuses for the jumping beans with regards to PCS - as if because they're young, it's beyond their power to improve this aspect of the sport; as if the judges are inherently wrong to say they have poor choreography because they land the jumps.

 

[sky_fly20]

wasn't Witt's Era the worst ?

 

[Mathman]

The worst was 1940-46.

 

[venlac]

I don't like the skaters to concentrate on the only difficult jump and no artistry and musicality.
however, At least, in long program, i think skaters in podium should have 3-3
and I dont understand because of skating skills, recieve huge PCS much higher than impressed with program.
like carolina kostner,patrick chan; i think they fit really well in new scoring system

Anyway, I hope to see skater, have artistry and also technique,but not too athletic in new generation.
In old scoring system and in new scoring system(Without regard to the scoring system), skaters who anytime can win

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The point is that these sorts of skaters with inferior PCS will be compelled to improve their PCS so that they too will become better all-around skaters. Do you think Jeremy Abbott's skating skills came out of nowhere? Or Daisuke Takahashi's interpretation and performance ability? No, they worked hard to improve these aspects of their skating, as much as they worked hard on their jumps. Why can't they be rewarded for these qualities the same way you want jumps to be rewarded?

Well by that logic, shouldn't skaters with inferior jumps be compelled to improve their jump layout and consistency? Doesn't seem like they are if they can skate easier programs and make errors and still win.

Also, using men isn't a great example because the top men actually have consistent jumps and a lack of consistent jumps usually means lower PCS (some exceptions of course). With women, those with better jumps have consistently lost to women with poorer jumps in the past few years.

Let's be honest too, while younger skaters don't possess the finesse of veteran skaters, they still have decent content in their programs, including transitions, and spins/footwork which are sometimes even harder than their senior counterparts. I can guarantee that if you counted up the transitions in junior skaters' programs and considered their difficulty, they would be on par with several senior skaters who are automatically getting a PCS transitions boost. PCS improvement will come over time. But as people have said, it's a sport. Artistic quality is part of it, but for people to take it seriously as a sport and not performance art there needs to be an emphasis on rewarding technical merit, which means good jumps. Should we say a younger skater should never be placed ahead of Kostner/Czisny/Asada/etc., even if the junior skater lands 3-3s and the seniors double all of their jumps?


The issue isn't that better skaters should be rewarded PCS-wise, it's whether they should be rewarded so much as to negate the technical aspect of the performance.