Would Plush have won if the new rules had been applied?

[gmyers]

I know a lot of people tried to do the quad. How many of the medalists did one? One did. And none of the people in the top three in free skate did one successfully. So if you want to be a top tier skater do you do a quad? No and that's COP.

 

[Olympia]

If anyone disputes the usefulness of math, we have evidence to refute that claim. Mathman, your analysis is making me feel better about the CoP, because you've demonstrated that there's more than one way to arrive at victory. I'm going back to read post #112. Thanks for your efforts!

 

[Mathman]

I know a lot of people tried to do the quad. How many of the medalists did one? One did. And none of the people in the top three in free skate did one successfully. So if you want to be a top tier skater do you do a quad? No and that's COP.

Don't despair! Skaters with quad attempts grabbed #1, #4, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #12 and #14 at Worlds.

The no-quad boys got #2, #3, #5, #11, and #13.

I think Amodio will get one next year and be the next world champion.

 

[gmyers]

At French Nationals there was Amodios Quad salchow that got straight negative 2's on GOE-I wonder how that would translate in international competition. Of course he never did one after French nationals in international competition so I am guessing him and his coach knew the answer!

 

[mskater93]

I think Gmyers is at least partially right about the two strategies, quad versus back-loading. I just checked out the jump layouts for the top 14 skaters at 2010 worlds (men's LP).

First, the quad is alive and well. Nine out of the top fourteen attempted a quad. So I do not see any support for the claim that the CoP discourages skaters from trying it if they can.

Of the five skaters who did not have a quad (Chan, Brezina, Rippon, Contesti, and Amodio), all five put only 3 jumping passes in the first half and 5 in the second half.

For the nine quadsters there was greater variety in the placements of jumps. Three of the nine (Joubert, Schultheiss, and Reynolds) had 5 jumping passes in the first half, 3 in the second. Three (Abbott, Kozuka , and Voronov) did 4 and 4, and three (Takahashi, Van der Perren , and Fernandez) did 3 in the first half, 5 in the second.

So, I am not sure what all that proves. There seem to be many choices for a skater trying to maximize his strengths and point totals.

Thank you mskater93 for the great post about edges on jump takeoffs, post #112,

Mathman, thanks for the lesson about program loading. It makes me feel better about my puny singles and couple doubles and how they are loaded.

I am glad I could be of assistance in describing the science of jumps. I find I can wrap my physical self around the jump better if I understand from a laws of physics standpoint how it works. I have coaches who explain how my errors (like on the flip and lutz with the pick-draw or my in ability to stay up over the take off side) cause my problems and how to fix them.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

All jumps involve the laws of physics.

A counterrotational takeoff with no toe assist makes it extra difficult to get height up into the air and also to generate the in-air rotation.

(Note that lutz and toe walley have a toe assist -- walley and toeless lutz do not.)

To complete multiple rotation requires both height and quick rotation. In the history of figure skating jumping, hardly anyone has ever been able to get two rotations from a counterrotated edge takeoff, let alone three.

The fact that no one was doing double walleys in the days before there was a scale of values suggests that pretty much no skaters were able to do two rotations from that takeoff, let alone three.

If double walleys were no more difficult than normal triples, we would have been seeing them in competition in well before the new judging system, and they would have been included in the scale of values, and there probably would have been a score reserved for triple walley as a hypothetical jump that might be achieved someday, same as there is for the harder quads.



I have no idea what this sentence means.



Yeah, one skater in a million. There have only been a few thousand elite skaters in the history of triple jumps. That exceptional jumper hasn't come along yet and might not in our lifetime.



The quad lutz has not been banned. It's listed right there in the scale of values: 13.6 base mark.

And of course, if it weren't listed in the scale of values it would be a "nonlisted jump" and therefore a skater would be free to include it if he wanted, for the excitement factor, without penalty -- it is not an illegal element -- and without even using up a jump slot.
All counter rotation jumps are


That's already true of the double or triple walley. If anyone could actually do those jumps well enough to have little risk of a fall or having the takeoff mistaken for a double or triple loop, don't you think he would throw it in as a transition move for the wow factor, for making history? And maybe earn the innovative element bonus that was written into the rules at the beginning of the new system but has never actually been applied internationally as far as I know?

To my knowledge there have been more quad lutzes than double walleys ever attempted in competition. That should tell you something.

All jumps have to account for the Laws of Physics. I never said they couldnt. You could take up this discussion with the originator of that idea.
(btw. All skaters know about the 'assists.')

The bottom line on all of this nitpicking of my post, is that the Walley and Toe Walley are legitimate Jumps that have been omitted from the Scale of Values. I have not seen that they are illegitimate.

The argument you put forth did not explain that there have been different eras of jumping on figure skates. There have been many firsts, e.g., Triples, Quads, etc. A first 3Walley could be accomplished in our era with many more to follow as it was with the first Triple.

As it is now, with the omission of the Jumps, no one will put them in their programs. That's why you don't see them and not because they are difficult.

What I would like to know was what was the rationale to leave them out of the Scale of Values. You seemed to allude to those jumps are too difficult for the skaters. If that is the reason, than it should be mentioned officially. I would think you do not know the official rationale for omitting the Walleys.

 

[gkelly]

The bottom line on all of this nitpicking of my post, is that the Walley and Toe Walley are legitimate Jumps that have been omitted from the Scale of Values.

The toe walley is included by default as an alternative to triple toe loop. If anyone does a triple toe walley it will be called as 3T and earn the same base value as a triple toe loop.

The walley is not included in the scale of values because it's only done as a single jump. I'm sure that the reason it is explicitly considered a "nonlisted jump" is so that skaters can do single rotations from this takeoff without wasting jump slots. They're free to

Now personally I think it would be a good idea to include double walley in the scale of values, with a value greater than that of double axel and maybe greater than the easier triples, even though it's less rotation, to give an incentive for skaters to try to learn it. If there were points for it, we'd be more likely to see it.

Including triple walley in the scale of values would be a purely theoretical. I don't think we will see it in competition before we see quadruple axel.

I have not seen that they are illegitimate.

Again, I have no idea what you're trying to convey with this sentence. Maybe if you could choose your words more precisely we could actually communicate with each other.

The argument you put forth did not explain that there have been different eras of jumping on figure skates. There have been many firsts, e.g., Triples, Quads, etc. A first 3Walley could be accomplished in our era with many more to follow as it was with the first Triple.

First things first. Let's see a first double walley in international competition before we start looking for triples.

As it is now, with the omission of the Jumps, no one will put them in their programs. That's why you don't see them and not because they are difficult.

If they weren't difficult, we would have seen them before there was a scale of values. The fact that maybe two skaters in the whole history of the sport ever attempted double walley in the last few decades of the 20th century and no one ever attempted triple walley, long after triple axels became commonplace, tells me that double walley is probably more difficult than triple axel.

What I would like to know was what was the rationale to leave them out of the Scale of Values. You seemed to allude to those jumps are too difficult for the skaters. If that is the reason, than it should be mentioned officially. I would think you do not know the official rationale for omitting the Walleys.

The above is my understanding. No, I haven't seen an official explicit explanation from the people who wrote the scale of values.

But note that their absence from the SoV does not mean that they are considered "illegitimate" or that they are "banned." When you throw around words like that, you confuse the issue.

They are absent from the scale of values. That's it. Why? So that skaters can use the single jumps as transitions without wasting jump slots. And because no one ever used to do the doubles or triples under the old system, so there was no expectation that anyone would or could do them now.

 

[janetfan]

Back in the day I remember seeing walley jumps - but always a single.
Any clips with a skater doing a double walley?

 

[mskater93]

There have been reports of people doing double walleys but I've never seen them on video, so I can't tell you if the reports are my daddy's bigger than your daddy types or real reports.

I see a lot of walleys these days as precursors to jumps out of steps for Intermediate and Novice skaters. A lot of coaches are teaching walleys, reverse walleys (ie walleys that are reverse of your natural rotation), and one foot walleys (ie walleys that land on the inside edge of the opposite of your normal landing foot) to help their skaters have better control of upper body for their jumps and to give some interesting-ness to difficult entries for LP and jump out of steps for SP. I've seen kids with very strong (high, big, clean) triples up through Lutz try double walleys as a play type of element just to be able to say they can but even the strongest and most controlled of them are unable to rotate more than 1.5 times around. That would be why you haven't seen doubles or triples...

 

[gkelly]

Back in the day I remember seeing walley jumps - but always a single.

Not only back in the day. I think they have always been about as common as, say, Ina Bauers or stag jumps, under both 6.0 and IJS.

Any clips with a skater doing a double walley?

The only example I know of it being tried in competition, at 1:26 in this clip.
Note that it is at US Nationals, not in international competition. Also note that the takeoff is not a clear inside edge.

I've heard rumors of Jozef Sabovcik attempting double and maybe even triple walleys in practice in the 1980s, but I don't know that he ever tried in competition. If he wouldn't try the double in competition, I highly doubt that any triples he might have attempted were actually rotated.

By contrast, I can name at least 5 skaters who attempted quadruple lutz in competition or who attempted them in practice according to my own eyewitness sightings and reliable reports.

 

[janetfan]

Thanks for the link. If you had not pointed out the time I would not have noticed it and still don't know what to think of it.

 

[seniorita]

But I do understand your feelings. It's part of the love-hate feeling we all have for skating. My condolences!

lol thanx, i m not feeling sad for the result, except for the first days, i have even watched the Olys again, even the medal ceremony!I m just annoyed by double standards, in general, not only here.
I know Plush and Weiss have tried the 4lutz in competition, who else?Lutz is my scary jump by the way

 

[gkelly]

I know Plush and Weiss have tried the 4lutz in competition, who else?Lutz is my scary jump by the way

Those are the only guys I know of who have tried it in competition.

There were reports of Elvis Stojko practicing quad lutz at 1993 and maybe 1996 Worlds.

I saw Vyacheslav Zagorodniuk try it in a practice at 1995 Skate America (cheated and two-footed, but he stayed on his feet) and Evgeny Pliuta at 1998 Worlds -- there were reports of him practicing it at other competitions as well, and IIRC even commentators expected him to try it in a long program at least once, but I don't think he ever managed to do so.

 

[gmyers]

What are the chances of a quad lutz in the COP era? Like none???

 

[janetfan]

lol thanx, i m not feeling sad for the result, except for the first days, i have even watched the Olys again, even the medal ceremony!I m just annoyed by double standards, in general, not only here.
I know Plush and Weiss have tried the 4lutz in competition, who else?Lutz is my scary jump by the way

What you call a "double standard has to do with several hundred insulting posts about Evan. You will deny it, but have made quite a few yourself. :yes:

No problem - but GS is not a Plushy fan site. Some GS posters love Plushy and some think he is an exceptionally poor sportsman.Others think he is little more than a big jumper similar to Joubert.

Perceptions are different for posters here. I suspect you were right when you said many here don't care that much about Evan - just as many here do not like Plushenko's skating or his childish behavior.

He reputed "artistry" has always been questioned in N. America although many Europeans think he is just like John Curry.

My opinion is that he doesn't come close to the great artistic skaters but has been a great jumper over the years. The night of the LP in Vancouver was NOT one of his best nights.

He deserved bronze IMO because he was outskated by Dai and Evan. Others feel differently and that is OK. That is what skating boards are for.

 

[gkelly]

What are the chances of a quad lutz in the COP era? Like none???

Probably about the same as a quad flip. For which we just saw one attempt at this year's Worlds.

Maybe a little better for all quads once a moderately cheated attempt will be worth more than a so-so clean triple. But still rare.

 

[gmyers]

There is no doubt that Takahashi's artistry and skating skills were visible at the Olympic free skate but his jumps were underroated and wrong edged and he fell once. It's like after he fell he couldn't do a jump right. So Bronze was decided really on spins and steps and just barely beat Lambiel.

 

[gmyers]

Probably about the same as a quad flip. For which we just saw one attempt at this year's Worlds.

Maybe a little better for all quads once a moderately cheated attempt will be worth more than a so-so clean triple. But still rare.

Yeah the new rules are coming and maybe the punishment for bold jumping failures or near successes will be less but like no change in rules can change what happened!

 

[seniorita]

...

Did I bother at someone not liking the skaters I like?? Yes thanx for guideline instructions, but I laughed cause the people I mostly talk from here dislike Plush and yet we get along really well. Respect is the word. I never said this is a Plushy forum so don't use words I didnt say, plus I did not speak about Plushenko in double standars. And I know what is Gs and how to behave here and not insult people or their intelligence, at least better than you. Since you wondered where the rest people went..scripta manent, look at your posts.
Forgot to add: Who addressed to you?It was a general observation I had, it is rather idiotic to address personally and make me a lecture also about behavior here.

 

[janetfan]

Did I bother at someone not liking the skaters I like?? Yes thanx for guideline instructions, but I laughed cause the people I mostly talk from here dislike Plush and yet we get along really well. Respect is the word. I never said this is a Plushy forum so don't use words I didnt say, plus I did not speak about Plushenko in double standars. And I know what is Gs and how to behave here and not insult people or their intelligence, at least better than you. Since you wondered where the rest people went..scripta manent, look at your posts.

I thought you blocked me - but must admit it is not surprising you can't resist reading my perplexing, silly, and occassionally intuitive posts.

Poor sportsmanship never goes over well in USA unless it is accompanied by a formal apology.
As a very poor sport myself I know this very well. :yes:

Here is an interesting blog comment for your persusal:

http://olympicfanatic.com/2010/02/20/day-6-aftermath-plushenko-slams-judges-my-apologies-to-lysacek/