Would You Train With Your Rivals?

[Ladskater]

I am thinking particularly of Virtue/Moir, but I know other skaters train with their rivals as well. Personally, I think it would be better to train in a different arena than your rivals. I also would not want to have the same coach as my rival. I would want a whole different approach than a coach who is training everyone the same. Just a thought.

 

[karne]

Wasn't that the reason Abbott left Zakrasjek/Colorado Springs? He wanted individual attention, not to be one of many (one has to wonder, too, if he looked at Farris and Aaron and went, "Oh, crap."). But then some skaters work better in a group environment or an environment where they interact with rivals on a regular basis. Kori Ade often teaches three or four of her male students at the same time, even Brown in groups with the others. And if you look at the current CS situation, you've got Aaron, Farris, Armin as the top dogs (with Brown arriving soon), and then a whole crop of Senior/Junior men that Krall also teaches, Kaugars, Dolensky (at least I know he was at CS at one time, is he still there?) and so on. And it seems to work very well, like they bounce off each other.

Add:

I was just thinking, too, about the situation with Alexei Mishin. He had Yagudin and Plushenko training together and that obviously didn't work. Now, he tends to keep Gachinski and Plushenko away from each other, though they do sometimes train together, it's rare. I think he will still put Tuktamysheva on a session with either of them, but not his two men together. This helps to remove some of the tension factors that crept in with Yagudin and Plushenko. I wonder if it's partly a culture thing?

 

[CassAgain]

I have a hard time wrapping my brain around the Canton situation. I can't imagine the top competitors in any sport being well served by the same coach. Because the teams are so closely scored, why wouldn't they want a coach who could help them focus on how to specifically best their rival? And yet when there was a perfect opportunity to go their separate ways last summer, neither took it. It's obviously working on some level as they remain untouchable by the rest of the field, but it's fun to speculate what the rivalry would be like if they were completely separate camps.

 

[vera01]

Well.. Because of this, I can't help but think that it's Zueva that determines whoever that's going to win gold medal at major competitions.

 

[hanca]

It is not only Zoueva with V-M and D-W. It is also Weaver-Poje sharing coach (P. Camerlengo, A. Krylova) with Pechalat-Bourzat. Both couples are also on a very similar level, finishing just under each other last year and this year at the World championships. I think there may be even more such couples who are at similar level and share a coach.

 

[Scrufflet]

I simply can't imagine doing it. And it appears most of us can't. It would be interesting to know how Z. presented it to the 2 teams initially and how they eventually resolved it.

 

[noskates]

Well as you can tell by my screenname - I don't skate. BUT if I did, I would not want to share my coach with another person or team that I'm in direct competition with. I would want undivided attention. I guess there is a school of thought that rivals can push each other but....how can a coach have to top teams or two top skaters and not have a favorite?

 

[Icey]

I think that happens often without it being overly problematic. Frank is coaching Ten and Lysacek. Orser is coaching javier and hanyu. Sato was coaching adam and jeremy. Orser was coaching Elene and, sorry, but the name of the Canadian woman escapes me. Tom has coached as many as three men near the top at one time, including Jeremy, Bradley and Mroz (and now aaron and Mroz). Mishin is coaching several rivals, including Plushenko. If you look at Frank's roster of skaters, I think probably some of them overlapped the time he was with Kwan.

 

[Scrufflet]

I think that happens often without it being overly problematic. Frank is coaching Ten and Lysacek. Orser is coaching javier and hanyu. Sato was coaching adam and jeremy. Orser was coaching Elene and, sorry, but the name of the Canadian woman escapes me. Tom has coached as many as three men near the top at one time, including Jeremy, Bradley and Mroz (and now aaron and Mroz). Mishin is coaching several rivals, including Plushenko. If you look at Frank's roster of skaters, I think probably some of them overlapped the time he was with Kwan.

Cynthia Phaneuf.

 

[Jammers]

Wasn't that the reason Abbott left Zakrasjek/Colorado Springs? He wanted individual attention, not to be one of many (one has to wonder, too, if he looked at Farris and Aaron and went, "Oh, crap."). But then some skaters work better in a group environment or an environment where they interact with rivals on a regular basis. Kori Ade often teaches three or four of her male students at the same time, even Brown in groups with the others. And if you look at the current CS situation, you've got Aaron, Farris, Armin as the top dogs (with Brown arriving soon), and then a whole crop of Senior/Junior men that Krall also teaches, Kaugars, Dolensky (at least I know he was at CS at one time, is he still there?) and so on. And it seems to work very well, like they bounce off each other.

Add:

I was just thinking, too, about the situation with Alexei Mishin. He had Yagudin and Plushenko training together and that obviously didn't work. Now, he tends to keep Gachinski and Plushenko away from each other, though they do sometimes train together, it's rare. I think he will still put Tuktamysheva on a session with either of them, but not his two men together. This helps to remove some of the tension factors that crept in with Yagudin and Plushenko. I wonder if it's partly a culture thing?

I doubt that Abbott was too worried about Aaron Or Farris considering it's been almost 4 years since he left Tom Zakrajsek. Farris was only 14 and Aaron was just a Junior skater still so i don't think he was too threatened by a couple of kids.

 

[blue_idealist]

Well, I did competitive kayaking and you train in a group with your competitors, so it's not that hard to imagine.

 

[MasterB]

Isn't that the reason that Yagudin left Mishin. He didn't want to share his time with Plushenko?

I don't see it as a problem if your mates are not at the top with you. However, in the case of the dance teams, there is no way in hell that I would have the same coaches as my rivals, not when we are both competing to be number 1 in the world.

 

[chuckm]

D/W and V/M have had the same coaching for many, many years. D/W fans were fine with it, and it wasn't seen as a problem until D/W started defeating V/M consistently. Now all of a sudden, V/M fans see it as a problem.

Both teams are wonderful skaters and their competitions are exciting and a pleasure for all ice dance fans. Their great rivalry is coming to an end very soon, so why not just enjoy it while we can.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Well.. Because of this, I can't help but think that it's Zueva that determines whoever that's going to win gold medal at major competitions.

She seemed disappointed at Worlds to me. I think deep-down she preferred her Carmen routine to D/W's Notre Dame de Paris because it was a departure for her and V/M. I think she used more of her creative skills creating and tweaking that Carmen for V/M while as great and much-improved D/W's Notre Dame de Paris was, it was familiar territory for Zueva.

Given her choice, I wonder which program she would have rather seen get the higher score.

When the Zueva/Shpilband split happened, many thought that if D/W, V/M, and Shibs were going to split up, V/M would definitely stay with Zueva because she seemed closer to them than D/W. However, it was a shock to some when D/W were the first to publicly say they were going to stay with Marina, then V/M and the Shibs followed suit very shortly after.

 

[chuckm]

Zoueva may have been disappointed because V/M were never quite able to perform Carmen as well as she had hoped. They didn't make any mistakes in their Worlds performance, but they were slower than they had been in previous efforts, probably to skate clean and keep Tessa's legs from cramping.

As a coach, Zoueva would have wanted both her top teams to perform their very, very best. She doesn't decide who is best on the day, the judges do that.

 

[TontoK]

Zoueva may have been disappointed because V/M were never quite able to perform Carmen as well as she had hoped. They didn't make any mistakes in their Worlds performance, but they were slower than they had been in previous efforts, probably to skate clean and keep Tessa's legs from cramping.

As a coach, Zoueva would have wanted both her top teams to perform their very, very best. She doesn't decide who is best on the day, the judges do that.

I totally agree with that. For sure, each team's dances are choreographed with Level 4 elements and other moves that suit their individual styles. It's not as though she gives V/M Level 2 footwork sequences or D/W a level 1 twizzle sequence. Like any coach, she does her best to equip and train her teams to win. Whether they do so or not... that's up to their own performances and the judges' preferences.

 

[dorispulaski]

AFAIR, both teams find it motivating to have their competitors at the same rink.

Any time you're tempted to take a day offf, you think Charlie & Meryl/Tessa & Scott won't be taking a day off, and you get out of bed in the misty morning early and go out to train.

And it seems to me that Marina has said all she has to do to get one of the teams to do something is to say well Charlie & Meryl/Tessa & Scott did it, and the other team will go out and do whatever "it" is too.

 

[bramweld]

I'm already beginning to dread this off-season

 

[uncchristine99]

This is a really tough discussion--it's like parenting. You just can't divide it up evenly no matter how much you try and like others have mentioned, you give each team the goods tailored to their strengths and you send them on their way (or onto the ice). I like all things

I play in a local, totally not important volleyball league but my team frequently practices against our top rival team. If anything, I think it helps us to regularly go at it with them. You see them everyday, on and off the court, on good days and bad days--it makes them real and it gives you confidence because you see and learn their strengths and weaknesses. Neither of our teams have coaches so there's a whole lot less strategy going on but I think there is some merit to the Canton situation. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

 

[KKonas]

Well.. Because of this, I can't help but think that it's Zueva that determines whoever that's going to win gold medal at major competitions.

Not necessarily. Originally D/W were to skate to a Frank Sinatra theme (Zoueva) FD, which would have never held up against V/M's Carmen. Fortunately D/W realized that and went with Davis' choice - the Notre Dame de Paris score. Now in their mid-20s I think D/W as well as V/M are old enough to make their own choices. It will be interesting to see those choices next season. Can't wait.