- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
antmanb said:
But in the Olys, only one top ten Lady skated clean. It was a dull competition. Not so in dance, not so in Pairs, not so in Men.
Joe
Yu Na, Mao, Kimmie and who else?
- Thread starter Joesitz (RIP)
- Start date
But in the Olys, only one top ten Lady skated clean. It was a dull competition. Not so in dance, not so in Pairs, not so in Men.
Joe
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I don't think that we can say that the men were exactly "clean" at the Olympics.
Plushenko doubled his flip, Buttle fell on his quad and doubled his loop, Lambiel doubled both of his Axels and got a -2.29 GOE deduction on his second quad, Weir doubled both of his Axels and used only 7 jumping passes, Joubert fell on his triple Axel. Etc., etc., etc.
In pairs, Zhang and Zhang had a huge fall that took them (illegally) four minutes to recover from enough to continue their program. But they were still better (so says the CoP) than all the others except the gold medalists.
As Attyfan mentioned, the Original Dance was the worst we have ever seen in terms of catastrophic mistakes.
Have to agree about the ladies, though. A disappointing competition with nothing much to cheer about. Arakawa's performance was lovely, but she omitted both of her planned triple-triple attempts and doubled her loop. She won only because Sasha fell twice and Irina gave one of the least inspired performances of her career.
For all of that, though, to me, it is still possible to enjoy the show as an athletic competition. You don't have to be perfect, just better than the other guy. In the Super Bowl you might throw an interception and then on the next possession throw a touchdown and win the game. Mistakes and all, it will be interesting to see which of the new generation of ladies will step up.
My own opinion is that Mao Asada will leave the others skating for second place, and that Lysacek will show the most improvement among the men. But we'll see.
JMO
MM
Plushenko doubled his flip, Buttle fell on his quad and doubled his loop, Lambiel doubled both of his Axels and got a -2.29 GOE deduction on his second quad, Weir doubled both of his Axels and used only 7 jumping passes, Joubert fell on his triple Axel. Etc., etc., etc.
In pairs, Zhang and Zhang had a huge fall that took them (illegally) four minutes to recover from enough to continue their program. But they were still better (so says the CoP) than all the others except the gold medalists.
As Attyfan mentioned, the Original Dance was the worst we have ever seen in terms of catastrophic mistakes.
Have to agree about the ladies, though. A disappointing competition with nothing much to cheer about. Arakawa's performance was lovely, but she omitted both of her planned triple-triple attempts and doubled her loop. She won only because Sasha fell twice and Irina gave one of the least inspired performances of her career.
For all of that, though, to me, it is still possible to enjoy the show as an athletic competition. You don't have to be perfect, just better than the other guy. In the Super Bowl you might throw an interception and then on the next possession throw a touchdown and win the game. Mistakes and all, it will be interesting to see which of the new generation of ladies will step up.
My own opinion is that Mao Asada will leave the others skating for second place, and that Lysacek will show the most improvement among the men. But we'll see.
JMO
MM
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Joesitz said:
For me sadly COP has ruined dance and i no longer enjoy watching it at all, i tune in to see the Kerr's programs and then leave it so i'm not a good judge of whether dance is an exciting competition or not.
In all honesty i thought the men's competition was more boring than the ladies because the predictable happened - the only one to stay on his feet was Pluschenko with an exceptionally boring and lacking (choreographically speaking) program. Everyone else splatted in one program or the other and it was pretty dull. I'm not a huge fan of Stephane's LP (actually i think his competitve LPs i really dislike but love his SPs and exhibition skating) and i did enjoy Buttle's but it did have falls and errors.
The ladies were the same, only much more exciting because despite the majority feeling that Slutskaya would come out and reproduce her moscow worlds LP (or not) and win the competition she didn't. Sasha came out...and fell - but there was drama in that she ralied tback to produce the best performance she has done of that tprogram after the second "fall". And shizuka's LP to me was magical. It only had five triple jumps in it...so what? I love it and thought it was great. I got more excitement and emotion from the ladies and men...as well as a little sting of "what if" about certain other skater.
For me you can't separate the idea of "The men's" competition and "the ladies" competition and ask which is more exciting without recognising that people's excitement in the event is often to do with the actual individual skaters and if they like them or not. It could be the most dramatic competition in the world going on in the dance but if i don't really like the event i'm never going to get that enthused.
Ant
I think it had to do with the scoring system change. The skaters are doing more complicated routines and when you throw in Olympic pressure with all that, that's a pretty big burden. My conjecture is that is what led to the unusually high number of mistakes during that competition.
I think there will be fewer mistakes in 2010 and beyond (as we get more skaters that are "used" to the system).
I think there will be fewer mistakes in 2010 and beyond (as we get more skaters that are "used" to the system).
I think that the statistics quoted did not exactly tell the tale. You also have to look at HOW the numbers happened.
Meissner did her best skating at the END of the season, when it counted most, not in the GP. Same with Fumie Suguri. Both Kimmie and Fumie struggled in the GP, but both skated well at Nationals, Olympics and Worlds. I am a firm believer that, ISU politics and points aside, Worlds is a MUCH more important competition than the GPF.
OTOH, Mao's best skating was in the GP, and she was less effective at Japanese Nats and JW. Kim skated ONLY at the Junior level, so we don't yet know how she will stack up against the Senior ladies.
Rochette had a good FS at the Olympics, and a good QR at Worlds, but otherwise her skating this past season wasn't as good as it was in the 2004-2005 GP and 2005 Nationals. She seemed to hit a kind of rut where there was at least one or two deadly mistakes in each competition. Yes, she was consistent, but not the kind of consistency that wins medals.
Gedevanishvili had a terrific SP, but struggled consistently with her FS all season. I think she had far too many competitions this season for such a young skater and her Worlds performance showed how tired she was.
Carolina Kostner is a puzzlement. She seemed to hit her stride in the 2004-2005 season, winning her first World medal, then fell to pieces this season. I thought it was performing in Italy that did her in, but her Worlds performance was more of the same.
We have yet to see Katie Taylor competing against a full Senior cast, but may well do so this coming season. She did beat bronze GPF medalist Yukari Nakano at 4CC, and that bodes well for her this coming season.
Meissner did her best skating at the END of the season, when it counted most, not in the GP. Same with Fumie Suguri. Both Kimmie and Fumie struggled in the GP, but both skated well at Nationals, Olympics and Worlds. I am a firm believer that, ISU politics and points aside, Worlds is a MUCH more important competition than the GPF.
OTOH, Mao's best skating was in the GP, and she was less effective at Japanese Nats and JW. Kim skated ONLY at the Junior level, so we don't yet know how she will stack up against the Senior ladies.
Rochette had a good FS at the Olympics, and a good QR at Worlds, but otherwise her skating this past season wasn't as good as it was in the 2004-2005 GP and 2005 Nationals. She seemed to hit a kind of rut where there was at least one or two deadly mistakes in each competition. Yes, she was consistent, but not the kind of consistency that wins medals.
Gedevanishvili had a terrific SP, but struggled consistently with her FS all season. I think she had far too many competitions this season for such a young skater and her Worlds performance showed how tired she was.
Carolina Kostner is a puzzlement. She seemed to hit her stride in the 2004-2005 season, winning her first World medal, then fell to pieces this season. I thought it was performing in Italy that did her in, but her Worlds performance was more of the same.
We have yet to see Katie Taylor competing against a full Senior cast, but may well do so this coming season. She did beat bronze GPF medalist Yukari Nakano at 4CC, and that bodes well for her this coming season.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Very good thoughts, Chuckm. Much of what you say is basically a wait and see, and we all have to agree with you. However, there is a point of waiting where it becomes tiresome.
Joannie should get over all her demons by now and this coming season should produce her best skating to date. She has the goods for the podium and just may take a gold.
Fumie, a true competitive skater, may have reached her peak in calgary. It was a wonderful performance but will it be repeated with higher tech which is what this coming season will be all about. (no more playing it safe?)
Kimmie was a big surprise here. A podium finish was possible since the two of the Oly medalists didn't show,but again can she repeat those 3x3s and add the 3A? Can she maintain the numero uno position?
Gedenashvili is somewhat overrated by me. Her best skating, imo, relies on the technical side. She needs a lot of improvement in style, etc.
Carolina as you say is a puzzlement. Yet, she's had plenty experience in international competition and has just been for me, the Sandhu of Italy.
Katie just may make a splash this upcoming season. She has the goods as was seen in 4CC, and is now motivated, but can she add the 3x3s?
Mao, just may be rated a little on the overrated scale. She has some problems but she is good. Likewise with Ya nu.
The two American Divas, I think will be passing on all of this.
JMO.
Joe
Joannie should get over all her demons by now and this coming season should produce her best skating to date. She has the goods for the podium and just may take a gold.
Fumie, a true competitive skater, may have reached her peak in calgary. It was a wonderful performance but will it be repeated with higher tech which is what this coming season will be all about. (no more playing it safe?)
Kimmie was a big surprise here. A podium finish was possible since the two of the Oly medalists didn't show,but again can she repeat those 3x3s and add the 3A? Can she maintain the numero uno position?
Gedenashvili is somewhat overrated by me. Her best skating, imo, relies on the technical side. She needs a lot of improvement in style, etc.
Carolina as you say is a puzzlement. Yet, she's had plenty experience in international competition and has just been for me, the Sandhu of Italy.
Katie just may make a splash this upcoming season. She has the goods as was seen in 4CC, and is now motivated, but can she add the 3x3s?
Mao, just may be rated a little on the overrated scale. She has some problems but she is good. Likewise with Ya nu.
The two American Divas, I think will be passing on all of this.
JMO.
Joe
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
Gosh, I think Mao, Yu Na, and Elene are all astoundingly good and not overrated at all, strong both technically and stylistically. I also love it that each is so very different from the others. Mao is a little sugar plum fairy (with steel under the sugar), Yu Na is one of the most elegant skaters ever, and Elene is so energetic and delightful.
For me, Kimmie and Katie are not as sophisticated or interesting, so not really in the same league. But it will certainly be fun to see the competitions.
If Ota and Nakano are also in the mix... wow!
I really hope Sasha will stay in and rise to the occasion. Joe, you never mention Irina. Are we assuming she has retired, or did I miss the announcement?
For me, Kimmie and Katie are not as sophisticated or interesting, so not really in the same league. But it will certainly be fun to see the competitions.
If Ota and Nakano are also in the mix... wow!
I really hope Sasha will stay in and rise to the occasion. Joe, you never mention Irina. Are we assuming she has retired, or did I miss the announcement?
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Spun Silver. When I write about a skater it depends on whether I consider the skater a good competitor a good performer - or both!
When I go to see a competition LIVE, I do want to see the best of the skaters. The winner, does not have to be someone I consider an outstanding artistic performer. This should explain my feeling about Irina who in general is a great competitor.
The other skaters you mentioned are for me, a cause for waiting to see them in competitions against each other. While I would not compare these young gals yet, I do think they all need time to blossom. I've never been a fan of teenage skaters.
I hope Katy makes it to the international scene. She has a lot of competition at home for the Nationals. If the two American divas choose not to skate the Nats, maybe Katy will have a chance.
Of course, Yukina. How lyrical can one skater be? She out lyrics Kwan, imo.
But she has little chance to get out of Japanese Nats.
Joe
When I go to see a competition LIVE, I do want to see the best of the skaters. The winner, does not have to be someone I consider an outstanding artistic performer. This should explain my feeling about Irina who in general is a great competitor.
The other skaters you mentioned are for me, a cause for waiting to see them in competitions against each other. While I would not compare these young gals yet, I do think they all need time to blossom. I've never been a fan of teenage skaters.
I hope Katy makes it to the international scene. She has a lot of competition at home for the Nationals. If the two American divas choose not to skate the Nats, maybe Katy will have a chance.
Of course, Yukina. How lyrical can one skater be? She out lyrics Kwan, imo.
But she has little chance to get out of Japanese Nats.
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
I think the ladies field can be just as exciting as the mens. The young ones are willing to take risks and try more difficult jumps than their predecessors. Kimmie and Mao have already demonstrated that. They may not have the years of experience the top men have, but they can be very exciting too, challenging one another.
In terms of number of competitors the mens field is bigger, but we don't know yet who the up and coming ladies are besides Kimmie,Mao, and Yu na Kim. I think Joannie and Carolina will be in that group too, and may be Mira Leung. IMO Arina Martinova is a few years away from being competitive (in terms of podium finishes). I am sure there are lots of ladies in Japan that are ready to arrive on the world scene.
Vash
In terms of number of competitors the mens field is bigger, but we don't know yet who the up and coming ladies are besides Kimmie,Mao, and Yu na Kim. I think Joannie and Carolina will be in that group too, and may be Mira Leung. IMO Arina Martinova is a few years away from being competitive (in terms of podium finishes). I am sure there are lots of ladies in Japan that are ready to arrive on the world scene.
Vash
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
Well, you are probably right about that. I guess I overspoke. She just bowled me over!
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2006
chuckm said:
Yukina Ota has participated in a couple of exhibitions this year. From what I've seen, she still has her triples and is as graceful as ever. However, with the Japanese ladies' field so deep, it will not be easy for her to get back to major international events.
When she first appeared at 2003 Worlds at 17, there was lots of hope that Joannie Rochette would be the next BIG ONE in Canada, but her results so far have been a roller-coaster ride.
2003 Worlds 19th
2004 Worlds 8th
2005 Worlds 11th
2006 Olympics 5th
2006 Worlds 7th
With Kwan, Slutskaya and Arakawa out of the picture, many expected 2006 Worlds to be Joannie's breakout year, when she would finally be on the podium. But it didn't happen. This coming season, Joannie will be 21 and it will be harder than ever to break through, now that Asada and Kim are Seniors and Meissner has had her breakthrough. That will put more pressure on Joannie than ever.
2003 Worlds 19th
2004 Worlds 8th
2005 Worlds 11th
2006 Olympics 5th
2006 Worlds 7th
With Kwan, Slutskaya and Arakawa out of the picture, many expected 2006 Worlds to be Joannie's breakout year, when she would finally be on the podium. But it didn't happen. This coming season, Joannie will be 21 and it will be harder than ever to break through, now that Asada and Kim are Seniors and Meissner has had her breakthrough. That will put more pressure on Joannie than ever.
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