But Patrick will add a 2nd quad eventually, most likely by WC, so the playing field will be evened out. He will likely always have PCS advantage. Hanyu may have big TES advantage, but his layout is really difficult to skate cleanly, and hence he may not claim the entire TES advantage.
Yuzuru Hanyu: 2015-16 Season
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- Feb 25, 2014
:bm: Is it possible if we put the SC score debate to rest? There is no where else in the forum that I can go to without reading about the score and I'm getting 
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Clips of the gala focus on Yuzu by Japanese TV. Totally different camera angle from the one streamed live.
- Isn't he a ray of sunshine
, #1 , #2
- During closing
Keep a look out for gala practice fancam please
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Clips of the gala focus on Yuzu by Japanese TV. Totally different camera angle from the one streamed live.
- Isn't he a ray of sunshine
, #1 , #2- During closing
Keep a look out for gala practice fancam please
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2014
Lol No, I read that It was because he didn't want to skate on it and trip apparently, I don't know if it's even possible but anyway, better be careful
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- Jun 9, 2014
That is a huge generalization and honestly quite insulting to read because while that could be true for selected number of fans, many who comment here do watch and have come to enjoy other skaters because they genuinely enjoy the sport. That is a rude way to dismiss other peoples opinions, whether you think they're correct or not. Comments like that do not belong this fan fest and belongs in The Edge where people commonly generalize and trash fans of skaters when they disagree.
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- Joined
- Dec 29, 2014
You guys should watch the Skate Canada recap from TSL, they talk about Hanyu vs. Chan and what they said was basically true... well at least in this competition. Anyway don't get too hung up about the scores now because as long as your fav makes you proud!
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- Jun 9, 2014
eace:I did watch the performances of both. I’m not an expert of skating. I’m mainly seeing this from the perspective of mechanism design, so that the rules/judging can be fair and at the same time encourage technical progression. I don’t expect everyone to agree with me. Here is my reasoning.
It’s always more difficult to skate cleanly when someone does a very difficult program. So if judges don’t take into consideration the difficulty of the performance when they judge, then an easy program will likely score higher than a more difficult program because it’s always easier to skate an easy program well than a difficult program. So an easy program will most likely score higher than a much more difficult program even when the skater who attempts the more difficult program skates well, although not perfect. So that would encourage technical regression. Not every athlete is like Yuzuru, who will push himself even without explicit incentives from the rules/judging.
Therefore, I always take consideration the difficulty of the elements/programs when I judge. IMO, difficulty should be rewarded in addition to quality.
The GOE bullet points are a guideline. I don’t value all bullet points with equal weight. I don’t think every judge values each bullet point with equal weight either.
For me, jumps with standard set up but landed with no good flow/height will get 0 GOE. Jumps with standard set up, decent height/ice coverage/flow only get +1. A perfect standard jump with excellent flow, height etc, but without additional difficulty like difficulty entries/steps before jumps, will get +2. The perfect jump doesn’t happen very often (I’m quite harsh). The highest GOE for a jump without difficult entries/steps will only get +2 max. Basically difficult entries/steps will get the jump another +1 GOE. Jumps with difficult entries executed with ok height/ice coverage/flow will get +1. Jumps with difficult entries executed with decent height/ice coverage/flow will get +2. Only jumps with very difficult entry executed perfectly will get +3. E.g. Yuzuru’s 3A in the SP. Again, this doesn’t happen very often. Jumps with long setup will only get +1 GOE max when it’s perfect, otherwise it only gets 0 GOE when it’s landed. I am a bit more lenient on quads since they are more difficult than triples. Very well executed quads even without very difficult entries/steps may get +3. So I would only give +1 to most of Patrick’s triples (occasional 0 or +2), +2 to the quads, definitely not +2 or +3 to his 3A. His 3A will get +1 GOE at most.
Similarly for spins, only very well executed difficult spins may get +3. (The levels don’t really indicate the difficulty of the spins, so the difficulty will be rewarded in the GOE.) Standard spins with decent speed and centering will only get +1. Standards spin with fast speed and centering may get +2. No spins with basic positions will ever get +3 from me. Basically difficult spin positions will get extra +1 GOE. Difficult spins with ok speed and centering get +1. Difficult spins with decent speed and centering will get +2. Difficult spins with fast speed and centering get +3. All of Patrick’s spins would get +1 at most (maybe even 0) because he is only doing basic spins, not difficult spins.
So based on the way I judge, the GOE margins among top skaters and middle-ranked skaters are not big. So Patrick will get higher GOE overall, but not 11 point margin, more like 3-5 point margin.
As for the PCS, there are bullet points for that too. But judges have to set a threshold for each skater. Not every skater starts with the same threshold. I use difficulty as the base value of the PCS. Patrick’s program only has 1 quad and 1 axel and much easier transitions than Yuzuru. So the BV of the PCS is in the low 8s. But he skated well, so I will give him high 8’s. I definitely won’t give him over 9’s for components. So I will give Patrick around 88 PCS. Yuzuru does a much more difficult program, 3 quads, 2 axels and lots of difficult transitions. So his base value will be around 9. He didn’t give the best performance, so I will give him low 9’s. I will give him 91-92 PCS.
So overall, I will give Patrick around 178 for his LP, which is about the same score he got at Japan Open last year and I will give Yuzuru around 190 for his LP.
What I disagree with is that in this particular competition, difficulty was not taken into consideration in the judging. Yuzuru’s score is too low given the high level of difficulty he executed and Patrick’s score is too high given the low level of difficulty he executed. IMO, difficulty must be rewarded in addition to quality if the judging is fair.
To me, a GOE margin of 10+ points and PCS margin of 5+ that are justified only with quality, but not with difficulty will very likely lead to controversial placements.
It’s ok to not reply to my post and discuss the scores anymore.
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ETA: Most skaters receive a mix of +1's and +2's for their jumps. It's quite rare to have all judges giving a skater +2's. The question is how many judges give a skater +1's and how many judges give a skater +2's. If we look at all the skaters who are competing at Skate Canada (other than Patrick), only 2-4 judges would give +2's to these skaters, and the rest of 5-7 judges would give +1's (some even 0’s). But if you look at Patrick's score sheet, most judges, maybe 6-7 judges would give him +2's, and only 2-3 judges would give him +1's. The difference in the number of +1's and +2's would make quite a difference in the overall average GOE for each jump. So if Patrick receives 0.4-0.5 points more GOE in each jump, that would still make quite a big difference since there are 8 jumps.
Similarly, if he also receives 0.4-0.5 extra GOE in spins and steps, then the overall GOE can be quite inflated. Overall if there are 3-4 judges who favor one skater specifically, that makes quite a significant difference in the overall average GOE and PCS, although on the score sheet, people don't see anything unusual since judges only give mostly +1's and +2's and very few +3's.
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- Jul 13, 2014
You know. This year already seems like it's going to be better. For one, the FP for his first GP went much better than last year. So that's out of the way. Now we wait until late November for NHK.
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- Feb 13, 2014
I still see your post, and it kinda irks me in the wrong way if Yuzuru's fans think so. Here's my take.
I am one if the people who is ok with the final placement but I disagree with the LP placement. It's just a Gp it's not such a big deal, however:
I don't understand why and how you can assume that people who disagree with the scores for Patrick is "not actual skating fans". Plushenko publicly talked against Patrick's scores (I will post the link later).
Tarasova (yes, the Tarasova) and the Russian are not happy about the scores. They use horrible words to describe the scoring at Skate Canada, they make tables and articles addressing this issue. Russian commentators in the closinh gala said this "Olympic Champion deserves to close this gala". And not to mention the Italian fans, I have been in their Facebook for ages and I see how they react to the scoring.
There's this guy who is working for Italian Europsport (He is also a commentator) who has been working as a winter sport journalist for years, he aslo disagree with the outcome.
My friend who is also a skater even got angry at the score for Yuzuru and Patrick, and he is definitely not Yuzuru's fan.
So tell me, these people don't understand figure skating? Plushenko I can somewhat understand because he likes Yuzuru, but the Russian commentators and Tarasova and other Russian journalist, the italian group? I haven't even checked with other group to see how they react to this. But in short, you shouldn't take it that only Yuzuru's fans who don't understand FS disagree with the score.
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Come on guys, give it a rest. We try to keep this thread as positive as possible (just like Yuzuru himself is), after all it's a fan fest. I think it would be better to continue this conversation in the Patrick vs Yuzuru thread or the men's FS thread. Let's not drag the discussion to this place were I personally would only want to celebrate on the awesome program Yuzuru gave us so early in the season and the outstanding comeback he gave, even if it's just at a GP event.
Btw I think I caught Yuzu clapping for Liza after she made the candilever in the gala. Perhaps they were choosing who it should be
though it would have been amazing to see them do SBS candilevers. Coming to think of it, SC developed in similar ways for both of them 
Btw I think I caught Yuzu clapping for Liza after she made the candilever in the gala. Perhaps they were choosing who it should be
though it would have been amazing to see them do SBS candilevers. Coming to think of it, SC developed in similar ways for both of them
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2014
So many hugs for Yuzu 
This time its Alex Shib
Some more Shibutani love, picture time with Maia :yay:
New clip of when Yuzuru went to the shrine and wrote his Ema.
Shines like a star
Fancam of the SP+K&C [Skate Canada]
Fancam of FS run-through
Fancam of FS 6 Minute Warm-up
Fancam of SP 6 Minute Warm-up
This time its Alex Shib Some more Shibutani love, picture time with Maia :yay:
New clip of when Yuzuru went to the shrine and wrote his Ema.
Shines like a star
Fancam of the SP+K&C [Skate Canada]
Fancam of FS run-through
Fancam of FS 6 Minute Warm-up
Fancam of SP 6 Minute Warm-up
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Probably belongs to the technical thread, but since I deleted my post that is making people upset but it got quoted by others so people can still read it and causing this toxic snowballing effect, is there a way to delete that quote or is that up to the posters who quoted me?
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2014
Most likely the latter...
well anyway, the posters are mature enough to understand that you weren't specifically targeting anyone so let's all just move on...
well anyway, the posters are mature enough to understand that you weren't specifically targeting anyone so let's all just move on...
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- Jun 21, 2014
I agree, I liked TSL's recap, they just kind of summed it up even though they didn't discuss much Yuzuru's programs, more him relatively to Patrick. But warning, you need to be a not so sensitive fan Lol
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- Feb 13, 2014
I just want to make it CLEAR that many people who disagree with the scores are not Yuzuru's fans, and many of Yuzuru's fans are NOT teen. I am almost 30 and I have watched this sport ever since Kwan, Plushy, Yags.
Plushenko is not a teen who does not understand this sport, so do Tarasova, Russian fans, Italian winter sport journalist, coaches and skaters... And they are not pleased with the scores.
Overall I am ok with the placement (while those above me don't) but it does not mean I or the people above should not question the credibility of the scores.
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Hi! First post in this thread and my second post overall just because I read something that made me go: "What?" Actually I've been a figure skating fan since like I was 5, (now late 20's) and I grew up watching A LOT of skaters, so I'm rather picky. I was more fond of following ladies' skating because I'm a woman myself and I've always wanted to skate (But live in a place with extremely hot weather, so no ice rinks or anything for us lol) And really never gave a lot of chance to male skating. Still I had my favorites while growing, like Yagudin, Lambiel, (even I liked Plushenko in his early years, I think he has a lot of charisma). But then Yuzuru appears and it was like someone said somewhere: magnetic. I don't get how some people can say we are not real figure skating fans because we like his skating. (Really that post really seemed like it was some kind of trolling or something) I try to be neutral because I know everything is a matter of tastes, and well, you can't dictate what people can like or what they can't. But just because you don't like Yuzurus' work and you like someone else, doesn't mean he isn't good or makes him less deserving than your favorites, or that we as fans are blind, I mean that "Blindness" can apply to any fan! So using that excuse is lame.
I'm sorry, had to shake that bad feeling off...
ANYWAYS, I barely paid attention to other male skaters since like 2008 until 2013... I wanted to see an overall package and I think Yuzuru is the only one who can do it for my tastes. He's the only male skater from these recent years who has made me excited for competitions. I absolutely love how his jumps seem so fluid, (I just can't with those skaters who land a jump and hold their arms up stiff like a statue, sorry) and I really like his artistry. He makes me actually feel he loves to skate and he is someone who doesn't give up and does his best. He is not perfect all the time, but when he manages to do everything as he wants, he takes everyone's breath away and nobody can't deny it. Compared to last season he is stronger, for me he just needs more condition to bear with this program, but I don't see how he can't do it, he's still young. I'mglad he hasn't peaked at this moment, we are just starting the season. I think I got really passionate here guys, I'm sorry hahaha but I was a lurker and loved the positivity and the vibes of this thread, and I thought It was good to participate for the first time. I will be reading often and try to give my views too!
I'm sorry, had to shake that bad feeling off...
ANYWAYS, I barely paid attention to other male skaters since like 2008 until 2013... I wanted to see an overall package and I think Yuzuru is the only one who can do it for my tastes. He's the only male skater from these recent years who has made me excited for competitions. I absolutely love how his jumps seem so fluid, (I just can't with those skaters who land a jump and hold their arms up stiff like a statue, sorry) and I really like his artistry. He makes me actually feel he loves to skate and he is someone who doesn't give up and does his best. He is not perfect all the time, but when he manages to do everything as he wants, he takes everyone's breath away and nobody can't deny it. Compared to last season he is stronger, for me he just needs more condition to bear with this program, but I don't see how he can't do it, he's still young. I'mglad he hasn't peaked at this moment, we are just starting the season. I think I got really passionate here guys, I'm sorry hahaha but I was a lurker and loved the positivity and the vibes of this thread, and I thought It was good to participate for the first time. I will be reading often and try to give my views too!
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- Dec 29, 2014
Yeah! When they talked about Hanyu's tendency to be lax when jumping is very true, for me I personally love his 'floppy' style lol, but you know what they always say... a person's strength can also lead to their weakness! This actually would apply to Chan too because his style is a lot more refined and perfect but some might find that a bit more 'artificial'? Anyway it really depends on yourself at the end of the day :thumbsup:
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