Yuzuru Hanyu: 2016-17 Season

[xeyra]

Doing combos on the 3A has an additional strategic reason than doing them on a 3Lz or 3F: the 3A is the only triple that is factored by 1, just like quads. Meaning it's the only triple that a +3 GOE does correspond to +3 added to the BV. Hence why 3A combos are so good as point getters for someone as consistent in that jump as Yuzu is, and why they're worth as much as quads.

 

[NordEsque]

About 5-quads program. I don't know what to feel either. I guess I can live with 4 different quad LP from him but I don't think I will be excited to see a 5-quad program. But I guess he gotta do what he gotta do to be on top, so if it ends up being his choice I think I will be ok with it? He (and Patrick) is not awarded enough for their transition, steps, and turns in between. Whether we like it or not it is just the reality of the sport now, so I guess if he eventually go with the tide, I can't really blame him.

Yeah, I think I agree. I mean this season I think that a clean Yuzuru will win over a clean Nathan Chen. Though Yuzuru's 3 Quad program is also still the highest scored, even more so than Chen's at US nationals (with all the crazy nationals overscoring). Yuzuru wins a lot of points GOE wise and when clean PCS wise... which speaks against perhaps adding quads

Chen is already getting 88 PCS and some questionable GOEs now though. So I'm quite worried that the judges will just reward him for being consistent and making an empty program look "good". I mean I'm not Boyang's biggest fan skating-wise but he is at least making a real effort transition wise and it scares me that you can get a good skating skill score for just executing much easier transitions better. I mean all this talk of Chen pushing the technical, is he really when he doesn't have any transitions? He is a very impressive jumper obviously still though

For Olympics I think a 5 quad program can be a good idea... It is difficult enough to go clean already of course but if Yuzuru get's the 4lz then Yuzuru with mistakes should surely get more than Chen with mistakes.

This might sound strange but hear me out: No matter what one thinks of Sotnikova's win at Olympics, it perhaps shows that the technical elements is what is going to decide the win? I really like Sotnikova's Je Suis Malade, she seems to be a really great PCS skater there but I remember that a lot of people said that her PCS score rocketed unfairly at Sochi - so was it the case that she just got it together OR that the judges didn't for whatever reason (perhaps because it was the Olympics) score PCS as harshly as normal? - and if (big if) the latter is the case then I think it would be wise for Yuzuru to do 5 quads. Or do you guys think it will be a case of who goes cleaner at Olympics?

Patrick was quite underscored at 4CC, I gotta say that I feel for the guy

Edit: Maybe I'm worrying a bit much sorry, you guys are all very right when it comes the the fact that it is quite a testament to Yuzuru's skills that he still got so great (and deserved) scores with quite big pops

 

[gladiolusc]

Sure, Nathan's pushing one aspect of the technical limits. It would be disingenuous to say he isn't. But the number of quads is still just one aspect of jumps, let alone of "technique" in general. The current rhetoric is annoying because it wrongly brings about the impression that quad count is the only boundary (hence a lot of zealous pushback in the vein of "but it's just jump-jump-jumps!" which goes the other extreme of undermining the achievement) and when judging overwhelmingly goes along with it, it trivializes the other boundaries (doing components in and out of transitions, maintaining ebb and flow and complex footwork throughout the entire program, etc) also being pushed.

A lot of people say Nathan's performance wasn't as good as it was in the Nationals. But actually, he added transitions to some of his jumps in 4CC LP so I can appreciate the program itself as probably being a little better than the Nationals version. Those jumps where he added bells and whistles just ended up being the ones he flubbed --> which is proof that these things aren't trivial to add. Adding those things undermine your jump consistency. So, no, I don't believe skaters who go after those boundaries are being properly rewarded. There's a reason why no one skates like Patrick, because they can't. There's also a reason why no one's quite as extreme as Yuzuru in terms of program complexity and even composition, again because they can't.

Yeah, I think I agree. I mean this season I think that a clean Yuzuru will win over a clean Nathan Chen. Though Yuzuru's 3 Quad program is also still the highest scored, even more so than Chen's at US nationals (with all the crazy nationals overscoring). Yuzuru wins a lot of points GOE wise and when clean PCS wise... which speaks against perhaps adding quads

Chen is already getting 88 PCS and some questionable GOEs now though. So I'm quite worried that the judges will just reward him for being consistent and making an empty program look "good". I mean I'm not Boyang's biggest fan skating-wise but he is at least making a real effort transition wise and it scares me that you can get a good skating skill score for just executing much easier transitions better. I mean all this talk of Chen pushing the technical, is he really when he doesn't have any transitions? He is an impressive jumper I would give hime that but still...

For Olympics I think a 5 quad program can be a good idea... It is difficult enough to go clean already of course but if Yuzuru get's the 4lz then Yuzuru with mistakes should surely get more than Chen with mistakes.

This might sound strange but hear me out: No matter what one thinks of Sotnikova's win at Olympics, it perhaps shows that the technical elements is what is going to decide the win? I really like Sotnikova's Je Suis Malade, she seems to be a really great PCS skater there but I remember that a lot of people said that her PCS score rocketed unfairly at Sochi - so was it the case that she just got it together OR that the judges didn't for whatever reason (perhaps because it was the Olympics) score PCS as harshly as normal? - and if (big if) the latter is the case then I think it would be wise for Yuzuru to do 5 quads. Or do you guys think it will be a case of who goes cleaner at Olympics?

Patrick was quite underscored at 4CC, I gotta say that I feel for the guy

 

[mcq]

This might sound strange but hear me out: No matter what one thinks of Sotnikova's win at Olympics, it perhaps shows that the technical elements is what is going to decide the win? I really like Sotnikova's Je Suis Malade, she seems to be a really great PCS skater there but I remember that a lot of people said that her PCS score rocketed unfairly at Sochi - so was it the case that she just got it together OR that the judges didn't for whatever reason (perhaps because it was the Olympics) score PCS as harshly as normal? - and if (big if) the latter is the case then I think it would be wise for Yuzuru to do 5 quads. Or do you guys think it will be a case of who goes cleaner at Olympics?

Patrick was quite underscored at 4CC, I gotta say that I feel for the guy

Difficult to say. Let's look back at singles. At vancoucer, the one with a more conservative layout (Yuna without 3A and 3Lo, Evan without quads) won with a clean skate. At Turin, Plushenko was just the clear winner here, clean and quads and 3As there while for the ladies, Shizuka actually watered down her tech and popped 2 jumps and won(despite being able to land 3-3-3 in practice) because Cohen splatted all over and Slutskaya did the same after her skate. At Salt Lake city (though it is still 6.0 system so maybe not really comparable), Yagudin had a splendid SP but watered down his free, won against Plush and Goebel (who actually had more quads, he landed 3 quads in LP iirc).

So I would say it is not like there is a pattern that those with higher tech will win. At Sochi, I actually think had Patrick skated a clean SP/FS, he would have been scored higher than Yuzuru. He just messed up so much that it was impossible to hold him up in first. He failed 3x at FS but basically scored the same as Yuzu there, failed his 3A in the SP but is just 4 points behind. Judges wanted him to win, but he did not deliver. About adelina : Actually, she already scored a high PCS at Euro (69 pts) , and she was not clean at all. So when clean she would have been given higher, though 74 is a bit something. That said, what happened with Adelina happened to Yuzuru too. His highest PCS before 2013 GPF is 85 or 87 iirc. But at GPF he received like 92 PCS (with a fall!). And I would guess it would happen to Nathan too had he skated clean internationally.

About PC, who knows? There is also a chance it will be a splatfest like Sochi and the one who will win is someone with 2+3 or 1+3 quad layout who skates clean. I am still inclined to think judges still reward overall skating quality than just number of quads. If not, those with higher number of quads would have scored higher than Yuzu's WR score or even Javi's WC score already, despite they only having 3 quads.

 

[NordEsque]

Sure, Nathan's pushing one aspect of the technical limits. It would be disingenuous to say he isn't. But the number of quads is still just one aspect of jumps, let alone of "technique" in general. The current rhetoric is annoying because it wrongly brings about the impression that quad count is the only boundary (hence a lot of zealous pushback in the vein of "but it's just jump-jump-jumps!" which goes the other extreme of undermining the achievement) and when judging overwhelmingly goes along with it, it trivializes the other boundaries (doing components in and out of transitions, maintaining ebb and flow and complex footwork throughout the entire program, etc) also being pushed.

A lot of people say Nathan's performance wasn't as good as it was in the Nationals. But actually, he added transitions to some of his jumps in 4CC LP so I can appreciate the program itself as probably being a little better than the Nationals version. Those jumps where he added bells and whistles just ended up being the ones he flubbed --> which is proof that these things aren't trivial to add. So, no, I don't believe they're being properly rewarded. There's a reason why no one skates like Patrick, because they can't. There's also a reason why no one's quite as extreme as Yuzuru in terms of program complexity and even composition, again because they can't.

Yeah you are completely right, I've been reading through the PCS score rule book and I'm really struggling with understanding what the judges are doing. Cause the rules are great. I'm a big fan of the technical aspect of figure skating, and it is what made me love it, but it wasn't actually the jumps mainly but the edge work and steps/transitions (Yuzuru's Sochi SP is what made me start properly watching). I have never figure skated but I have done quite a lot of ice skating in my life (comes with being a Swede, that and apparently "incidents" that only the US "president" "knows" about - but that's another discussion :noshake. Sorry that's a lot of shade in one bracket, it's been a strange couple of days

So being someone who has ice skated a lot, the steps and transitions and just skating really amaze me - it is SO difficult, and I really want it to be something that continues to be done and is rewarded. I find it so great that Yuzuru, Javier and Patrick have so different styles in their skating and I want new upcoming skaters to continue that trend - being different and skilled in edge work/transitions and so on.

 

[NordEsque]

Difficult to say. Let's look back at singles. At vancoucer, the one with a more conservative layout (Yuna without 3A and 3Lo, Evan without quads) won with a clean skate. At Turin, Plushenko was just the clear winner here, clean and quads and 3As there while for the ladies, Shizuka actually watered down her tech and popped 2 jumps and won(despite being able to land 3-3-3 in practice) because Cohen splatted all over and Slutskaya did the same after her skate. At Salt Lake city (though it is still 6.0 system so maybe not really comparable), Yagudin had a splendid SP but watered down his free, won against Plush and Goebel (who actually had more quads, he landed 3 quads in LP iirc).

So I would say it is not like there is a pattern that those with higher tech will win. At Sochi, I actually think had Patrick skated a clean SP/FS, he would have been scored higher than Yuzuru. He just messed up so much that it was impossible to hold him up in first. He failed 3x at FS but basically scored the same as Yuzu there, failed his 3A in the SP but is just 4 points behind. Judges wanted him to win, but he did not deliver. About adelina : Actually, she already scored a high PCS at Euro (69 pts) , and she was not clean at all. So when clean she would have been given higher, though 74 is a bit something. That said, what happened with Adelina happened to Yuzuru too. His highest PCS before 2013 GPF is 85 or 87 iirc. But at GPF he received like 92 PCS (with a fall!). And I would guess it would happen to Nathan too had he skated clean internationally.

About PC, who knows? There is also a chance it will be a splatfest like Sochi and the one who will win is someone with 2+3 or 1+3 quad layout who skates clean. I am still inclined to think judges still reward overall skating quality than just number of quads. If not, those with higher number of quads would have scored higher than Yuzu's WR score or even Javi's WC score already, despite they only having 3 quads.

I hope that you are right that the judges will reward overall skating, I just worry that they might be a bit... cowardly with PCS scores, not dare to award them where they are due. Interesting with Adelina's PCS score, perhaps I've just been misinformed with the 'rocketing', if she however got that with quite a lot of mistakes it might just be that she got it all together at Sochi.

Yeah Patrick did mess up his free skate at Sochi quite a lot I would say, not just with the mistakes but also I think he didn't skate overall as great as he can - not that it is easy or anything, the pressure must have been terrible. I thought the mens' scoring was quite sensible at Sochi. Yuzuru's rising PCS score I think made sense, he did quite a few mistakes in the performances before GPF13 which also threw him off a bit overall, and I think that he's skating overall was a lot better at GPF13 where he didn't let it happen.

 

[mcq]

I hope that you are right that the judges will reward overall skating, I just worry that they might be a bit... cowardly with PCS scores, not dare to award them where they are due. Interesting with Adelina's PCS score, perhaps I've just been misinformed with the 'rocketing', if she however got that with quite a lot of mistakes it might just be that she got it all together at Sochi.

Yeah Patrick did mess up his free skate at Sochi quite a lot I would say, not just with the mistakes but also I think he didn't skate overall as great as he can - not that it is easy or anything, the pressure must have been terrible. I thought the mens' scoring was quite sensible at Sochi. Yuzuru's rising PCS score I think made sense, he did quite a few mistakes in the performances before GPF13 which also threw him off a bit overall, and I think that he's skating overall was a lot better at GPF13 where he didn't let it happen.

It's rocketing, alright. But it did not happen only to her. It happened to Yuzuru at GPF '13 (85/87 to 92), Medvedeva at GPF '15 (67 to 72), even Nathan at 4CC (84 to 88). It's just that for her it happened at oly, so more people noticed. Like the others, she has not skated clean before but skate clean(ish) at oly.

If you look at 4CC, Yuzuru lost nearly 20 pts off his original base value. But his total score is only 4 pts behind Chen who deliver all of his elements and already had like 10 pts higher BV than him even if Yuzu did all his planned layout. I would say they are still rewarding quality from here, at least. Like with Chan at Sochi, he still needs to deliver if he wants to win. Now, regardless of that, I do think that if he indeed plan to upgrade his BV again, it is not a bad idea. 10 pts gap in BV is quite a number, lessening the gap would be good too.

 

[NordEsque]

It's rocketing, alright. But it did not happen only to her. It happened to Yuzuru at GPF '13 (85/87 to 92), Medvedeva at GPF '15 (67 to 72), even Nathan at 4CC (84 to 88). It's just that for her it happened at oly, so more people noticed. Like the others, she has not skated clean before but skate clean(ish) at oly.

If you look at 4CC, Yuzuru lost nearly 20 pts off his original base value. But his total score is only 4 pts behind Chen who deliver all of his elements and already had like 10 pts higher BV than him even if Yuzu did all his planned layout. I would say they are still rewarding quality from here, at least. Like with Chan at Sochi, he still needs to deliver if he wants to win. Now, regardless of that, I do think that if he indeed plan to upgrade his BV again, it is not a bad idea. 10 pts gap in BV is quite a number, lessening the gap would be good too.

Yeah all very true, though I do think that Chen's PCS score is a bit much in certain components still. Closing the BV gap I agree is probably the right thing to do for Olympics Thank you also for sharing info about previous olympics, it is fascinating to know how things change :agree:

On another note, it would be amazing to see Yuzuru do a 3A-1Lo-4S or 3S-1Lo-4S in competition, I can just imagine the ita esp commentators' reaction

 

[Yatagarasu]

10 pts gap in BV is quite a number, lessening the gap would be good too.

He can't really do much about the SP but I do expect he'll try fiddling with the FS, while keeping it at 4. It is possible. Your -3Lo option alone is worth thinking about, then any of his 'new' combos with the Sals, and even the 4Lo-3T.

 

[mcq]

He can't really do much about the SP but I do expect he'll try fiddling with the FS, while keeping it at 4. It is possible. Your -3Lo option alone is worth thinking about, then any of his 'new' combos with the Sals, and even the 4Lo-3T.

Lol I don't want him to change the SP layout to be honest. At most probably move the 4S3T in the second half but that's it. With his 4Lo getting better and 4S3T already there, I think it is just way too much risk to change it.
Anyway, I am talking about oly season here. Haha. I think his current layout (both SP and FS) is still fine for worlds.
I agree about the FS. Doing 4Lo3T + 3Lo combo would give him 6 pts extra, but again, hips :sad21: And if his 4Lz is really 60%, I guess spending time training that probably is more worth it point-wise than training -3Lo combo. But for worlds, I think he should stick with his current layout or his YOLO 4CC layout even.

 

[Lambari]

Sihyeong Lee aka the rhinestoned denim cowboy that I nourished for 9 months did a really short comment about Yuzuru in some news piece.

"I think Hanyu is from a different planet," Lee said after watching the Japanese skater's performance.

I really raised him well.

It's so difficult to find english news piece of young/lower ranked skaters though, there's this one about him probably because the competition was in Korea.

____________________________________

FS Warm up fancam.

Shoma's costume will make me go blind.

 

[Spot]

The Yuzu/Evan moment in video form https://loveyuzuruhanyu.tumblr.com/post/157528730925/here-it-is-the-video-to-yuzurus-unbelievable .

 

[Elaine666]

He can't really do much about the SP but I do expect he'll try fiddling with the FS, while keeping it at 4. It is possible. Your -3Lo option alone is worth thinking about, then any of his 'new' combos with the Sals, and even the 4Lo-3T.

It's quite easy to get a carrot on -3lo. If 4lz is debuting next season and I bet he would put in both short and long, I can definitely see 4lo-3t debuting as well.

 

[Yatagarasu]

Lol I don't want him to change the SP layout to be honest. At most probably move the 4S3T in the second half but that's it. With his 4Lo getting better and 4S3T already there, I think it is just way too much risk to change it.
Anyway, I am talking about oly season here. Haha. I think his current layout (both SP and FS) is still fine for worlds.
I agree about the FS. Doing 4Lo3T + 3Lo combo would give him 6 pts extra, but again, hips :sad21: And if his 4Lz is really 60%, I guess spending time training that probably is more worth it point-wise than training -3Lo combo. But for worlds, I think he should stick with his current layout or his YOLO 4CC layout even.

I wouldn't touch a thing about the SP, it's fine as it is now.

But I think there's a good chance there might be shuffling in the FS, for the Worlds, now. I suppose it will depend on how he feels about the 4S-3T because when he 'stormed out' saying it was the popped Sal, well yes, it was and I think he knows he can't afford that. He might simply not want to risk it, it is the Worlds after all, and not 4CC. I am just not sure what he would choose. He is very creative when he has to be and he has so many things in his arsenal, or is very close to adding others, so who knows what's in his head.
Of course, he may also be keeping in mind that Nathan's layout will get yet another upgrade for the Worlds so there's that too.

 

[NordEsque]

Russian Eurosport 4CC 2017 SP

Thank you!!!

I also hope he doesn't change the SP, he doesn't seem to need to and the 4S-3T combo is so well timed with the music

 

[shiroKJ]

It's quite easy to get a carrot on -3lo. If 4lz is debuting next season and I bet he would put in both short and long, I can definitely see 4lo-3t debuting as well.

I think either the 4Lz or 4Lo combo will make it's debut at WTT if everything goes well and he attends. That's a pretty big if though.

 

[NordEsque]

Doing 4Lo3T + 3Lo combo would give him 6 pts extra, but again, hips :sad21:

It's quite easy to get a carrot on -3lo. If 4lz is debuting next season and I bet he would put in both short and long, I can definitely see 4lo-3t debuting as well.

Are there/has there been skaters who manage to do -3Lo combos fairly consistently without underrotations? And is the injury risk really high? If not I would love Yuzuru to do them - they seem pretty scarce and unique , I mean he does have the 4Lo so with with practice chances are that he is able to do quite nice ones?

Someone told me Sarah Hughes did -3S -3L combos? :roll9: If true really cool, I think she does a quite nice 3T(?)-3L here at 1.33: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilJP1i2OE_E - I actually quite like this version of her program with the cuts and different music that the olympic channel for whatever reason decided to go with :scard8:

Edit: Sorry, screwed up the quoting

 

[Farnaz]

Yeah you are completely right, I've been reading through the PCS score rule book and I'm really struggling with understanding what the judges are doing. Cause the rules are great. I'm a big fan of the technical aspect of figure skating, and it is what made me love it, but it wasn't actually the jumps mainly but the edge work and steps/transitions (Yuzuru's Sochi SP is what made me start properly watching). I have never figure skated but I have done quite a lot of ice skating in my life (comes with being a Swede, that and apparently "incidents" that only the US "president" "knows" about - but that's another discussion :noshake. Sorry that's a lot of shade in one bracket, it's been a strange couple of days

So being someone who has ice skated a lot, the steps and transitions and just skating really amaze me - it is SO difficult, and I really want it to be something that continues to be done and is rewarded. I find it so great that Yuzuru, Javier and Patrick have so different styles in their skating and I want new upcoming skaters to continue that trend - being different and skilled in edge work/transitions and so on.

Going through your posts, I wanted to point out "how do you make time to spend on FS forums with all those terrible incidents going on in your country?" But, you yourself beat me to it.

 

[Elaine666]

Are there/has there been skaters who manage to do -3Lo combos fairly consistently without underrotations?

From what I can remember it seems ladies are more tending to do -3lo combos. For example, Miki's 3lz-3lo has pretty flow to see. Na-Hyun (hope I got her name correctly) executed two 3lo-3lo in front of me at SC last year and I found her rotation to be fine. Wakaba also tried 3lz-3lo last season, rotated well. There is another Korean junior girl did 3LZ-3T-3LO in the second half of her program and got ratified, tho it was a local comp I think? Ultimately we have Alina Z who probably will be the most consistent 3lz-3lo jumper in coming years.

 

[NordEsque]

Going through your posts, I wanted to point out "how do you make time to spend on FS forums with all those terrible incidents going on in you country?" But, you yourself beat me to it.

Well it is very difficult. Bit funny actually with how FS and politics overlapped this weekend for me I literally found out about the comments when I was on twitter looking though the #yuzuruhanyu hashtag and suddenly #swedenincident was trending