Yuzuru Hanyu: 2016-17 Season | Page 1341 | Golden Skate

Yuzuru Hanyu: 2016-17 Season

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lilsailor said:
With anything less than a 5Q program, he'd be relying on people like Nathan and Shoma crashing out at the Olympics. He's not far enough in front with the PCS to rely on it alone, he needs to upgrade the technical because surely everyone will be bringing new quads, etc. We know that if he goes clean ATM, he's essentially unbeatable, e.g. Helsinki FS, but with everyone upgrading, the younger ones maturing, that garauntee isn't gonna be as certain..
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With 5 quads he only gains 2 points more than with 4 quads but with 4lz. And there is a big chance his quality will drop which means lower GOE even if he skates clean. So he would probably get higher technical score with 4 quads.
 
Yatagarasu said:
I think they all did. During the LGC steps there's at least one more person on the ice with him, if not two.
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Oh lol okay :biggrin: I guess they allowed the skaters to use the ice and have a try. Too bad because it is in Japan we would not be able to see the OP tomorrow. Looks like the ISU will not livestream OP too :dbana:
 
Also, let's all remember his 3-quad original FS WR has still not been surpassed by anyone but himself so far, even with other people having 4-6 quads in their FS. So even if he goes for only 4 quads next season with 4Lz and two -3T combos, his BV will still be competitive with people doing 5 and even 6 quads and his GOEs, if he goes clean, will make up the difference (one hopes). Now if Nathan adds a 4Lo and 7-quads though... err... that's another story... but that's why adding a 4Lz is important, because it gives you the freedom to adapt.
 
xeyra said:
Also, let's all remember his 3-quad original FS WR has still not been surpassed by anyone but himself so far, even with other people having 4-6 quads in their FS. So even if he goes for only 4 quads next season with 4Lz and two -3T combos, his BV will still be competitive with people doing 5 and even 6 quads and his GOEs, if he goes clean, will make up the difference (one hopes). Now if Nathan adds a 4Lo and 7-quads though... err... that's another story... but that's why adding a 4Lz is important, because it gives you the freedom to adapt.
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Yeah but that still leaves it at the judges' whims because it seems PCS and GOEs are quite subjective in this sport. That leaves room for someone to skate clean and outskate him at the Olympics and everyone will agree with the result because "so-and-so had more quads!"

I do agree we won't see 4Lz at WTT. There's no point giving his competitors an entire summer to figure out how to beat him with a 4Lz ;)
 
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mcq said:
Oh lol okay :biggrin: I guess they allowed the skaters to use the ice and have a try. Too bad because it is in Japan we would not be able to see the OP tomorrow. Looks like the ISU will not livestream OP too :dbana:
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Unfortunately not, they're saying from Thursday. :(
It was nice to give them a bit of extra time on the ice, it definitely can't hurt!

___

About the 5 vs 4 quads thing, one thing that also often matters is perception. And perception influences both the judges and makes it easier to 'justify' things with the viewers.
Next season, with an established Shoma who is already pretty much equal in PCS with Yuzuru, who is now a Worlds silver medalist and double bronze from the GPF and has one National title, plus the others, it is perception that might sway. We've seen with Nathan how the sheer number of quads made an impact. Truly, don't underestimate Shoma. With his "plot armor" he is a massive threat. He got 214.45 with mistakes.

With fudging, and there will be fudging, 2 points may end up deciding if you're on the top of that podium or not. Depressed GOEs, depressed PCS again because oh hey, they have more quads, and ... problems. Remember how easy it was to create the perception of an 'inconsistent' Yuzuru? Perception matters.

Frankly, I am happy I am not in his or the team's shoes! These are not easy decisions.
 
narcissa said:
Yeah but that still leaves it at the judges' whims because it seems PCS and GOEs are quite subjective in this sport. That leaves room for someone to skate clean and outskate him at the Olympics and everyone will agree with the result because "so-and-so had more quads!"

I do agree we won't see 4Lz at WTT. There's no point giving his competitors an entire summer to figure out how to beat him with a 4Lz ;)
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Well, all he can do is raise his own BV with the 4Lz and adapt accordingly. Maybe if he initially goes for 4-quads, he can still do runthroughs with 5 quads and then, who knows, gradually add the 5th in competition if early season gives him indication of what's to come, both in others layouts and in judges scoring.
 
narcissa said:
Yeah but that still leaves it at the judges' whims because it seems PCS and GOEs are quite subjective in this sport. That leaves room for someone to skate clean and outskate him at the Olympics and everyone will agree with the result because "so-and-so had more quads!"
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This sport was much more fun when I didn't know **** about scoring :sarcasm:
 
Yoa said:
With 5 quads he only gains 2 points more than with 4 quads but with 4lz. And there is a big chance his quality will drop which means lower GOE even if he skates clean. So he would probably get higher technical score with 4 quads.
Click to expand...

The difference between world champion and not a world champion was only 2 points. The difference between podium and no podium was only 2 points. In a game of thousands those points can mean everything. And seeing as they seem to be rewarding his reliable stuff less, I think they want to know he's making things harder for himself. His axels didn't receive as good of GOEs as his quads did, despite their equal perfection.
 
narcissa said:
Yeah but that still leaves it at the judges' whims because it seems PCS and GOEs are quite subjective in this sport. That leaves room for someone to skate clean and outskate him at the Olympics and everyone will agree with the result because "so-and-so had more quads!"
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Exactly that.
It is much easier to justify the depression of his scores in this case. GOEs are really a problem now. I mean it sucks that this is something that is a genuine issue but it is what it is.
 
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Yatagarasu said:
Unfortunately not, they're saying from Thursday. :(
It was nice to give them a bit of extra time on the ice, it definitely can't hurt!

___

About the 5 vs 4 quads thing, one thing that also often matters is perception. And perception influences both the judges and makes it easier to 'justify' things with the viewers.
Next season, with an established Shoma who is already pretty much equal in PCS with Yuzuru, who is now a Worlds silver medalist and double bronze from the GPF and has one National title, plus the others, it is perception that might sway. We've seen with Nathan how the sheer number of quads made an impact. Truly, don't underestimate Shoma. With his "plot armor" he is a massive threat. He got 214.45 with mistakes.

With fudging, and there will be fudging, 2 points may end up deciding if you're on the top of that podium or not. Depressed GOEs, depressed PCS again because oh hey, they have more quads, and ... problems. Remember how easy it was to create the perception of an 'inconsistent' Yuzuru? Perception matters.

Frankly, I am happy I am not in his or the team's shoes! These are not easy decisions.
Click to expand...

:dbana: Too bad because the Japanese Press are usually not so detailed when it comes to reporting OP.

-
About the layout, I am not against him doing 5 quads. I actually think he has nothing else to prove and if he wants to do the craziest layout possible and challenge himself even though with the risk of his splatting all over and not medaling, I wouldn't mind. But for Yuzuru himself, he still wants to win and looking at his interviews, it seems that he is still torn about what kind of layout to pursue, even hinting at doing safe ones.

So if at the end of the day he decides to do a safer layout, I kind of understand why he would choose that route. If after the off-season, he does not include the 4Lz, I assume it is really not in a good quality/consistency to be put in a program. If he include the 4Lz but only do 4-quad, I would assume because his stamina does not allow him to do 5 but his consistency with 4Lz and 4-quad is dependable. If he does 5 with 4Lz, that means he is comfortable with it enough and is pretty consistent in practice. I think he learnt to appreciate his own limit this season and focusing on not training too hard and keeping himself healthy. Maybe he can master many jumps faster if he keeps grinding those quads and jumping over and over like Nathan did, but he knows he need to be careful with his well-being too and he has sustained an injury last season. So I would think whatever layout he eventually chose to do (and what we will eventually see next season) is what he is most capable of +comfortable with +consistent on at that point in time.
 
mcq said:
So I would think whatever layout he eventually chose to do (and what we will eventually see next season) is what he is most capable of +comfortable with +consistent on at that point in time.
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Oh yes, definitely. Agreed.

I mean personally, since we're talking and I like to blab the most while I am having coffee, I'd actually prefer a four quad layout. I think the artistry does suffer and since I like a balance as much as possible, I fear that five would push it over the line for sure. I am sure he'd do his best of course, and it would still be an enjoyable program but even he cannot work miracles. IMO four is the limit and anything after that is a problem. Though of course, I'll cheer on anything he decides to do, without question so if it is five, it's five and quad away Yuzuru :laugh:
 
Yatagarasu said:
Oh yes, definitely. Agreed.

I mean personally, since we're talking and I like to blab the most while I am having coffee, I'd actually prefer a four quad layout. I think the artistry does suffer and since I like a balance as much as possible, I fear that five would push it over the line for sure. I am sure he'd do his best of course, and it would still be an enjoyable program but even he cannot work miracles. IMO four is the limit and anything after that is a problem. Though of course, I'll cheer on anything he decides to do, without question so if it is five, it's five and quad away Yuzuru :laugh:
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Agreed here with every words :biggrin: especially I think his spin already suffered a bit with 4-quad sobs

But I meant, well, he still want to win after all, so I would believe that whatever he decides to do in the end, whether it is the "easy layout" or "hard layout", it is chosen after a very long deliberation and Yuzu himself thinks it is the best for him (it is not like he is the type that would listen to his coaching team after all :p). Eventually, he is the one who is going to train, skate and execute it. I just wish him all the health and well-being. After winning worlds, he seem to be gaining new perspective about his skating, his career and his achievements too. So in such a stressful and demanding olympic season, I wish him all the best thing in the world. :hap10:
 
Danibellerika said:
The difference between world champion and not a world champion was only 2 points. The difference between podium and no podium was only 2 points. In a game of thousands those points can mean everything. And seeing as they seem to be rewarding his reliable stuff less, I think they want to know he's making things harder for himself. His axels didn't receive as good of GOEs as his quads did, despite their equal perfection.
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I know every point matters... Worlds 2014... I just don't want his quality to suffer :/
 
Yatagarasu said:
Oh yes, definitely. Agreed.

I mean personally, since we're talking and I like to blab the most while I am having coffee, I'd actually prefer a four quad layout. I think the artistry does suffer and since I like a balance as much as possible, I fear that five would push it over the line for sure. I am sure he'd do his best of course, and it would still be an enjoyable program but even he cannot work miracles. IMO four is the limit and anything after that is a problem. Though of course, I'll cheer on anything he decides to do, without question so if it is five, it's five and quad away Yuzuru :laugh:
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I think that he will have a hard time deciding that, since iirc he said something along the lines "there's more to skating than the quads" recently... But whatever plan Team Hanyu comes up with, i'm sure will be the best thing for him :)
If he keeps a 4 quad program will be because he's confident that he can win with it: he hates to lose so much, knows that there's barely room for error nowadays and he's aware that they're catching up with him...
(But since he's aware of that last thing, he might think that it's time to up the difficulty a bit again :drama: like he said in that other interview hahaha)
 
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