Yuzuru Hanyu: 2017-2018 | Page 338 | Golden Skate

Yuzuru Hanyu: 2017-2018

But isn't it always better to have one-two stellar performances of a program than not to have them at all?

Why is it always better? Sure, I can see disappointment that a program wasn't performed to its full potential, but only when the program itself was great to begin with. Messing up a jumping pass, or not getting all your levels isn't really "not performed to full potential" IMO. You bring up LGC, and while I'd have been more fine with him bringing it back this season, I do think he was performing it really well last season, in the suave/slick manner that was intended. It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't too far off the mark for it to be getting a season-long encore. You could argue that the program itself should've been tweaked for it to be better, and that's something that would've worked too, but I have misgivings here that I've already stated.

I think GPF 2016 is as close to a perfect version of LGC as we can get. The 4Lo mistake had him laughing so the rest of the program had the proper joyfulness and freedom in the step sequence because the error didn't cloud the rest of the performance. It was also the time he began to interact with the audience.
Agreed.
 
I think GPF 2016 is as close to a perfect version of LGC as we can get. The 4Lo mistake had him laughing so the rest of the program had the proper joyfulness and freedom in the step sequence because the error didn't cloud the rest of the performance. It was also the time he began to interact with the audience.

His step sequence at Worlds was also great but I honestly think he was more frustrated there so it had a more bitter-sweet feeling than the one at LGC.
Yes!! GPF16 was epic, by far Yuzu's best performance in terms of entertainment and interaction. I liked it even more than many clean skates.

It's crazy that Yuzu could pull off a perfect celebration sequence at Worlds and especially WTT, where he messed up the complete first half. That needs some character...
 
Errors can really ruin this program, since it's a pure party from start to finish. No negativity allowed. But I can imagine, if Yuzu did a clean version, it would have the potential for a perfect score.

I also agree that GPF version was the best one artistically, he was on fire, and even his mistake handled with a huge smile didn't ruin anything for me :biggrin: But a clean skate and WR would still be nice, haha.

Why is it always better? Sure, I can see disappointment that a program wasn't performed to its full potential, but only when the program itself was great to begin with. Messing up a jumping pass, or not getting all your levels isn't really "not performed to full potential" IMO. You bring up LGC, and while I'd have been more fine with him bringing it back this season, I do think he was performing it really well last season, in the suave/slick manner that was intended. It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't too far off the mark for it to be getting a season-long encore. You could argue that the program itself should've been tweaked for it to be better, and that's something that would've worked too, but I have misgivings here that I've already stated.

I just talked about both there - clean skate and artistic performance. Shouldn't have done it, as someone might get confused. I meant that it's both upsetting when a program isn't skated to its full artistic potential and doesn't have a clean skate thus sometimes deserves repeat. Yuzu is going over the top with it but I find his programs best in the current field, so I don't mind it that much since everything is only getting better. Like artistic measure is not only range but also quality of a performance.
 
So about Teen Choice Awards, I searched the past winners and Beckham won 4 times, and Curry won 3 times so it is a popularity vote. And Ronaldo was voted for multiple years as a nominee so I guess foreigners can get voted as nominees and win for 4 times. That being said I wonder if Curry can win his 4th consecutive TCA board this year when figure skaters are the hottest post olympic season. As far as I have seen, Yuzuru was most voted as nominee by sheer size, then Scott Moir then Alex Shibutani
 
So about Teen Choice Awards, I searched the past winners and Beckham won 4 times, and Curry won 3 times so it is a popularity vote. And Ronaldo was voted for multiple years as a nominee so I guess foreigners can get voted as nominees and win for 4 times. That being said I wonder id Curry can win his 4th consecutive TCA board this year when figure skaters are the hottest post olympic season. As far as I have seen, Yuzuru was most voted as nominee by sheer size, then Scott Moir then Alex Shibutani

Popular foreigners, though.
 
If talking popularity, as I have mentioned before, Yuzuru had the highest amount of likes on his nomination tweets on the reply comment section..

But he isn't *known* to the TCA demographics. So even if he has the most nominations on twitter, it's highly unlikely he'd win even if nominated.
 
If talking popularity, as I have mentioned before, Yuzuru had the highest amount of likes on his nomination tweets on the reply comment section..
TCA is focus in "teens in North America" (Canada and USA), they will choose based on that public. Latin América has his own TCA.

Yes Yuzuru is popular, but not precisely in that demographic.
 
Reading this comment:
The layout of Chopin 3.0 fit the music much better than 2.0, especially the rippon-4T+3T at the very end of the programme deserved 100% the label "highlight distribution".

This was my favorite part of Chopin 3.0! However, I thought the layout of 2.0 was better. I wasn’t a huge fan of him putting his FCS and CSS spins back to back in 3.0. I understand why he did it, but I didn’t think it made for the greatest layout.

Though I thought his performance of RJ1 in Nice was raw and uninhibited etc., and is a favorite of mine, my absolute favorite performance to date would be Chopin at worlds in Boston. To me that performance went beyond what he exuded in Nice, due to his passion (though Nice had passion too) refinement and maturity. I also loved how he yelled at the end of that performance. He was fired up, which we don’t always see Yuzuru openly express. It was great to see.

However, it was 100% the right choice as time and history now shows. We can all hope and have strong opinions about Yuzu's programs and what we want his artistic aim to be in the future, but in the end, he and his team decide what will be the best balance and we just need to hang on for the ride. It's all a fan can do, really. --And discuss it in detail in a forum. :ghug:

It really was kismet that he decided to reuse programs that he knew very well. I’m sure that went a long way in helping him prepare to re-enter competition after being out with the injury. If he had brand new programs that hardly had any mileage in competition that would’ve added another level of stress to his comeback, which might’ve negatively impacted how he competed.

I do hope we will see two new programs this season. If he brings back LGC, which I enjoyed, I’d rather it be an exhibition.
 
Maybe as fans we sometimes forget (well, except when discussing his on and off ice clothes!) that Yuzuru's ideas on what is better and/or possible aren't the same as ours when we're watching...

There's a clip used in several youtube vids I've seen, where he says "I have to do everything, I have to do... perfect," and Brian next to him says "you don't have to be perfect," but it's clear he's not hearing. I can't help thinking his mental standard of what that 'perfect' means is pretty terrifying to mere mortals like me.
 
Maybe as fans we sometimes forget (well, except when discussing his on and off ice clothes!) that Yuzuru's ideas on what is better and/or possible aren't the same as ours when we're watching...

Not forgetting at all.

People do dissect athletes' technical approaches, so here were a few opinions on one's artistic approach. That's all.
 
Not forgetting at all.

People do dissect athletes' technical approaches, so here were a few opinions on one's artistic approach. That's all.

{grin} I did say 'we'... I know I do forget when wailing "but why is he DOING that???" and not only for Yuzuru and/or skaters. But given the sheer amount of work he personally puts into the artistic design of his programs (especially Seimei yes, from the videos I've seen of this I guess I would have been astonished had he NOT chosen it for the Olympics) I sometimes think he's the actor who is always looking for the ultimate 'platonic' performance of Hamlet.

I do wishfully think now that he's got his second OGM we'll see something very very different for 2018 (and wishfully hope that if he does stretch, it won't get the cold water reaction that I understand some folks gave to H&L)
 
Even if I understand why people prefer a new program instead of the old ones, doing Seimei and Chopin at Olys was a smart choice, especially when he injured himself, he knows this programs by heart, thats why he could delivered them and win, besides, they couldnt underscored a WR program(s) enough to make him lose, skating them clean, even with the mistakes he had (we know the judges sometimes underscored him, and we dont know what couldve happened this season, rumours that they wanted to savotage him, using the injured as an excuse, bla bla bla..., this is my personal view) so Im glad that he keep them, and the old version, not the one he wanted to skate first, I feel that the difficult jumps took away some details I liked from the OG, and the simplicity of some jumps made a great contrast with the difficulty of the stsq and spsq

again, thats how I see it
 
I apologize in advance for just "showing" up here to talk about Yuzuru's artistry but it's my favorite topic in figure skating (which is not something everyone loves to talk about) and you guys have wonderful discussion about Yuzuru's programs.

Anyways, I'm not here to talk about whether Yuzuru's programs are artistic or not, but that I understand where chopinskate is coming from regarding the "staleness" of Yuzu's programs when done in repetition. As someone who sincerely loves Notte Stellata and considers his R&J 1.0 (as you guys refer to it) as his most open program, I think we also have to grapple on the idea of 'artistic growth' in terms of transcending one's boundary and 'refining' one's artistic style. There's always a tendency for an artist or for anyone who wants to develop themselves to go back to their creation and make it better. You see that in many illustrators or artists or painters where they go back to do their old "work," transform it with new fine lines, with more precision in the strokes, more dynamism in the color schematic, with new technique they learned along the way, hiding the original's imperfection. But is it growth in artistry in terms of transcending your own boundary as much as it is about mapping the "growth/development" of your technique within your own artistic style? I think that's what chopinskate's trying to question here. For example, I appreciate Yuzuru's Ballade in terms of how developed it became within Yuzu's artistic style, but even with that, I won't put his interpretation of Chopin as some of the best because his artistic style has limited him in capturing the "rawness" and the "vulnerable" part of the Ballade. That "vulnerability" in his skating that was ever present in R&J 1.0 and Notte Stellata, was sorely missing in his Chopin, and I think it has to do with how he always thrives to perfect a program.

When did Picasso show "artistic growth"? When he perfected his technique for realistic representation in his adolescence, or when he decided to change his style, experimented different techniques and ideas? I would put my dollar and say it's when he decided to experiment to the point that his life as an artist was broken down to different artistic periods, because of his continued pursuit to find and create new styles. This is not to say that Yuzu should become a Picasso, but that because of how he continually repeated a program, if you look at his body of work, he doesn't seem like he has been in the sport for more than a quad, or that you get a sense of a continuing pursuit to experiment different techniques and ideas throughout his career at this point.

(I'm not sure if this is exactly what chopinskate has in mind; feel free to criticize profusely.)

So, in the end, I'm also on the camp that optimistically hopes for Yuzuru to introduce new programs this season, and to explore more in terms of artistic style and choreographic design. Let's see. I'm pretty excited to see changes in his approach.
 
So, in the end, I'm also on the camp that optimistically hopes for Yuzuru to introduce new programs this season, and to explore more in terms of artistic style and choreographic design. Let's see. I'm pretty excited to see changes in his approach.

I'm certain we'll be seeing new programs, and knock on wood, considering some of the things he's said post PC, I think it may be more what he truly wants vs what is good competitively. One thing about this is - Yuzuru is not an artist.

He's an athlete in a sport, where the goal is to win.
 
There's a clip used in several youtube vids I've seen, where he says "I have to do everything, I have to do... perfect," and Brian next to him says "you don't have to be perfect," but it's clear he's not hearing. I can't help thinking his mental standard of what that 'perfect' means is pretty terrifying to mere mortals like me.

:laugh:

I might be the only one but I feel like I saw his side of "perfectionist" in proceeding CiONTU and that's why I'm looking forward to seeing its behind-the-scenes in June :biggrin:
 
I'm certain we'll be seeing new programs, and knock on wood, considering some of the things he's said post PC, I think it may be more what he truly wants vs what is good competitively. One thing about this is - Yuzuru is not an artist.

He's an athlete in a sport, where the goal is to win.

That's why I'm optimistic for this new season, and whether we will see different side of his skating. I don't see why he can't be an artist and an athlete, particularly when you look at his work, he is highly capable of being both. I'm not here to deny his artistry, but that compared to his growth as "an athlete," his artistic growth isn't satisfying. I'm not Yuzuru too, so I cannot know for certain and will not claim with such authority, whether he wants to grow as an athlete or an artist.
 
He's an athlete in a sport, where the goal is to win.

Agreed. And again, as the usual boring criticism of the sport and not the athletes, if it were still awarding artistic merit properly, Yuzuru would have been a different athlete in a sport that seeks to redefine athletes in order to win. It's certainly a different approach.

Let's wait and see. I'm certainly excited.
 
but that compared to his growth as "an athlete," his artistic growth isn't satisfying.

You're entitled to your opinion but I'll disagree. I think he's shown great artistic growth throughout the years.

And he's primarily an athlete, with a side of artistry. As this is a sport, it has rules. Those rules have to come first. Everything else is built around them, and the goal of winning. You cannot have Yagudin's step-sequences from Winter these days; those days are gone. Instead we have CoP and they must abide by all those rules. It's limiting. Then we have the issue that was very apparent during the previous season, 2016/17, and Hope & Legacy, and the lack of resonance of internal type programs with Western audiences, including judges. This is another thing Yuzuru himself has remarked upon, the Asian expression/lack of appropriate scores (he's hardly the only person that has this issue, see Satoko for example) so that's another set of limits, self-imposed in a way.

While I think he's probably going to give himself more freedom, I trust he'll still be focused on winning; it's just how he is. As long as that holds, he'll be limited in certain ways. Once he's retired, he can experiment all he likes during shows where there are no restrictions (see Tatsuki these days).

Agreed. And again, as the usual boring criticism of the sport and not the athletes, if it were still awarding artistic merit properly, Yuzuru would have been a different athlete in a sport that seeks to redefine athletes in order to win. It's certainly a different approach.

Let's wait and see. I'm certainly excited.

If wishes were horses :laugh:
This would always be somewhat difficult as some of this is subjective but yes, if we had at least somewhat proper awards for that, we'd be seeing something else. Don't think it'll ever change so we're stuck with both self-imposed and external limits.

I'm definitely excited for new programs too!
 
You don't exclusively need them. Yuzuru (and anyone else) can grow as an artist without new programs. Chronological growth itself will be a part of this, as you would gain more life experience with it. However, how are you supposed to achieve true growth if you don't explore? The Chopin program, for instance, was first choreographed when he was 19. Had he left no reservoir of art unplumbed that he repeated this program for two more seasons? A new program in itself would have been a new life experience -- something he could have learned to perform really well over the new seasons. With Chopin, sure, maybe he did mature as a person and made the program more mature as he did, but it was never a two-way street after the first season.

This isn't to say people should NEVER repeat programs, however.

Personally, because Yuzu had a different free skates up until the Olympics I always found he had enough variety in his competitive programs to give me the impression that he has a large range of expression and that he's grown artistically. The third time repeat for Ballade no. 1 as I mentioned was more for practical purposes rather than artistic. It's a decision that is understandable in a sport and particularly in an Olympic season when you want as much of a sure thing as possible. Even with that, I think he still worked on elevating that program beyond version 1 and 2 (I guess there were really a total of 6 versions of this program - two in 2014/2015, and two in 2015/2016 - although we only saw 5 after his injury - it's been a turbulent 4 seasons). Each of us has their own idea about what constitutes artistry. For me, artistry in competitive figure skating is in how skaters fuse the technical skills of the sport with music and performance so that you don't notice one over the other and I think Yuzu's demonstrated growth in that aspect over the last 4 seasons. Now that the Olympics are over and he's reached one goal, I'll take his comment about skating programs he wants to skate to to mean he'll feel less need to be practical and allow himself to do whatever he wants (although in the back of my mind I wondered if what he really wanted was to skate to LGC again....


He performs it well, it's not like he isn't a competitor. It was just never an artistic statement big enough to be repeated those many times.

I don't agree with this at all. Faux dramatic programs are something I believe the audience to universally hate. The best thing about Yuzuru's R&J1 is that it takes time to build AND hold up a character arc -- that's what I mean when I say it is complex. Seimei, on the other hand, is quite shallow in comparison -- it's an attempt to build a character again, but it has flaws there because the build of the character just stays on a plateau. Compare it with R&J1. On the other hand, H&L is now something different -- there ISN'T necessarily a character there, just introspective movement, which the audience can absolutely connect to.

Slightly off-topic again, but I actually find a lot of fans on Goldenskate seem to LOVE faux dramatic programs. For some that is what defines artistry and expression, so I actually don't think it's universally hated. People probably have varying range on what they consider to be over the top. I just know my tolerance for that type of expression tends to be low.

Back to the topic at hand, it's interesting how different people view the same program. For R&J1 and Seimei, I never thought of either programs as being about the character as it was about a story. Sure, maybe R&J1 was a program where the story focused a bit more on the character of Romeo, but to me it had to do more with the tale of Romeo and Juliet than it did with Romeo himself (I don't think Romeo as a character develops a whole lot in the original play either). Seimei as well, despite being named after a person/character, felt more like the weaving of a spell and a ritual than about the titular character. I think when Seimei was first debuted Yuzu deliberately named it and wrote it as "SEIMEI". In his talk with Nomura Mansai he said it had the double meaning of the person (Abe no Seimei) and "life". I've always seen the program as spell to create life/light where there is darkness. My take is that the choreography for Seimei is more nuanced than it was for R&J1. There are tiny details in the way Yuzu holds his back, his gaze, and positions his arms and hands through the program that are very deliberate that help to create an amazing atmosphere which culminates in the choreographic sequence. R&J1 was more about passion and reckless violence of youth, it's exciting and engaging in a very different way but I'm not sure I'd call it complex as I find its story to be pretty straightforward. It does however have very interesting and gripping moments in the choreography. To each their own, but there's something to love in all his programs (even the David Wilson ones that rank lower on my list).

Speaking of exhibition skates, I know that I said Requiem at Boston was one of my favorite exhibitions, but prior to that I actually wasn't a huge fan of this program. The performance at Boston made it special and is really the only version of it I watch. It was during the latter half of the 2015/2016 season as well when Yuzu also skated Final Time Traveler again in a show. I actually am not a huge fan of that program either, but when I saw him skate it again I remembered thinking it looked so much better than before.
 
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