Ladies Tech calls in Russia versus Canada

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Shin Amano should just be on every panel and get things over with. At least this guy applies his strictness to everyone.
I don't like SC's tech panel. They are weird and maybe incompetent. Sotskova's 3Lutz<3t in the LP was very bogus.

I would bet that Amano won't be on any technical panels for the Olympics. I think the ISU will probably want more lenient calls just because they don't want controversy to erupt when results don't match casual, once-every-4-years perception (like if they can't see URs with the naked eye or if they even care about less than egregious URs).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

what i find hilarious is that after every skater... people say... OMG... this wasn't called UR... it should have been...

and now, there is a panel who served carrots to pretty much everyone, and people complain again....

I knew figure skating fans were tough... but I am at a point where I wonder... how far can the negativity go?

Well, a tough tech panel is fine, as long as it's against the skaters people don't like and benefits the people they do like.

Whoever this Japanese tech controller is (and French/American specialists), they clearly did not hold back, even with Japanese and American skaters. And the fact that they took their time is something to be lauded. In real-time, there is no issue with Osmond's rotation, and none of the tech panel - which had NO Canadian on it, mind you - flagged her.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

what i find hilarious is that after every skater... people say... OMG... this wasn't called UR... it should have been...

and now, there is a panel who served carrots to pretty much everyone, and people complain again....

You can spot the problem here I assume

Even if only thru perception it seems understandable to question these things. I thought the discrepancy in downgrades from event to event shows that the difference we are seeing is on the judges end instead of on the ice. That is a perception I can see.

 

[beki]

I'm sure she won't get "!" in the nearest years, but her edge is still inside
https://youtu.be/0W8pIUWAy2s?t=14

https://youtu.be/kgKVd9EPjsA

I can't really tell if she stays on the flat or switches back to the inside at the last second, but what I mostly notice is that she does that thing of picking with the whole blade instead of the toe pick. Lutzberger?

 

[4everchan]

You can spot the problem here I assume

Even if only thru perception it seems understandable to question these things. I thought the discrepancy in downgrades from event to event shows that the difference we see was on the judges end instead of on the ice. That's a perception I can see.

Osmond rotates her jumps. Alaine was hurt like the others.

 

[YesWay]

Whoever this Japanese tech specialist is (and French/American sidekicks), she clearly did not hold back, even with Japanese and American skaters. And the fact that she took her time is something to be rewarded. In real-time, there is no issue with Osmond's rotation, and none of the tech panel - which had NO Canadian on it, mind you - flagged her.

It was not a Japanese tech specialist.
You clearly do not understand the composition of tech panels, or what their roles are.

I wish you would stop talking about stuff you don't know anything about, and spreading misinformation.
But I won't be holding my breath.

PS.
No Canadian on the tech panel. Correct.
But a fellow French-speaker, and a fellow North American...

 

[Cherry blossom]

Agreed. Only one skater was treated leniently by the technical panel, and we all know who that is...

Kaetlyn osmond. just say it. She's not voldemort.

 

[Cherry blossom]

#russiaskate

 

[Figure 8's]

Every Skater has a right to be scored fairly. No matter what Country they are from or where the competition is. If anything will be the demise of skating it will be the perceived unfairness issue. Canadians get their feathers all ruffled any time any one dare question Osmond's inflated score. But really it is always that way at Skate Canada. Canadians are always scored very generously. Not a new thing.

 

[patines]

Every Skater has a right to be scored fairly. No matter what Country they are from or where the competition is. If anything will be the demise of skating it will be the perceived unfairness issue. Canadians get their feathers all ruffled any time any one dare question Osmond's inflated score. But really it is always that way at Skate Canada. Canadians are always scored very generously. Not a new thing.

Osmond has a beautiful short but her free skate was way overscored with her mistakes. And yes, I agree that the combo should have had a 1 point deduction.

 

[skatenewbie]

what i find hilarious is that after every skater... people say... OMG... this wasn't called UR... it should have been...

and now, there is a panel who served carrots to pretty much everyone, and people complain again....

I knew figure skating fans were tough... but I am at a point where I wonder... how far can the negativity go?

Many complain because the calls was ridiculous, quite a few jumps are not actually UR or borderline (skaters have 1/4 missing rotation advantage yknow) is called and instead jumps that are UR not called, etc. it was a bit incompetent for the tech panel imo

 

[Arriba627]

Was it just me or did the judges take their sweet time in Skate Canada, too? Normally you see the skater bow to the audience, enter the kiss and cry and then the reruns show on screen, they end, people clap, score is announced. At Skate Canada it felt like they showed the skaters in the KnC a minute before the rerun's and then another wait until the scores appeared. It sure made for some entertaining conversations to listen to, but it also felt horrible to see how the tech scores dropped for almost every skater.

I was sitting in back of the judges and watching them replay just about everything. They took a LONG time!

 

[4everchan]

Many complain because the calls was ridiculous, quite a few jumps are not actually UR or borderline (skaters have 1/4 missing rotation advantage yknow) is called and instead jumps that are UR not called, etc. it was a bit incompetent for the tech panel imo

but why should I trust anyone here who says that, when there is a tech panel made of experts who says the opposite ... i'd rather trust the tech specialists.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It was not a Japanese tech specialist.
You clearly do not understand the composition of tech panels, or what their roles are.

I wish you would stop talking about stuff you don't know anything about, and spreading misinformation.
But I won't be holding my breath.

PS.
No Canadian on the tech panel. Correct.
But a fellow French-speaker, and a fellow North American...

So a French *speaker* somehow equates to favouritism - how did that work out for Chartrand (who is more French than Osmond) and Lecavelier on their generous lack of tech calls? :sarcasm: And a fellow North American showing favouritism- oh wait, except there were all those calls that Chen/Wagner/Hicks/Chartrand/Austman got called on.

While I misspoke in calling her a tech specialist instead of tech controller - still the tech controller does have considerable clout on the panel including the ability to reverse/change/control calls and affect the score sheet. And given the long wait times its safe to say she was giving her two cents and thensome.

But saying Osmond got favouritism because the tech spec *speaks French* (like... points for originality... but, what?!) and because the asst TS is *North American* (not even Canadian) is quite the stretch, especially when you look at the plethora of tech calls against other North American/French skaters.

 

[rain]

Every Skater has a right to be scored fairly. No matter what Country they are from or where the competition is. If anything will be the demise of skating it will be the perceived unfairness issue. Canadians get their feathers all ruffled any time any one dare question Osmond's inflated score. But really it is always that way at Skate Canada. Canadians are always scored very generously. Not a new thing.

I think maybe, just maybe you should consider that perhaps what you perceive as "generous" scoring is due to the fact that Canada tends to send its "A" team to this event — you know, like World Gold Medallists Virtue and Moir, two-time World Champions Duhamel and Radford, and World Silver Medallist Kaetlyn Osmond. So yeah, they won their respective events, outscoring others. This can't actually be a surprise, can it? Clearly, as evidenced by their Worlds success, they're not just given "generous" scores at events in Canada either. Also perhaps consider that Canadians who did not have successful skates here certainly didn't seem to be given "generous" scores — I/M in pairs, Patrick Chan, Nic Nadeau, Keegan Messing, Larkyn Austman and Alaine Chartrand.

So Canada's top, internationally competitive skaters scored well. Doesn't seem like a case of some nefarious conspiracy to me.

And no, I don't think there was any nefarious conspiracy at Rostelecom last weekend either where many of Russia's "A" team also scored extremely well.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Every Skater has a right to be scored fairly. No matter what Country they are from or where the competition is. If anything will be the demise of skating it will be the perceived unfairness issue. Canadians get their feathers all ruffled any time any one dare question Osmond's inflated score. But really it is always that way at Skate Canada. Canadians are always scored very generously. Not a new thing.

- Osmond's PCS in her SP was still under 36, even with a clean SP -- the judges could have given her higher but they showed restraint, and in fact she still got quite a few 8-range PCs; as far as tech calls she got both StSq as level 3 while others got level 4, and a level 3 spin (ie the panel was still being critical of her levels). In the FS, she was a bit overscored - probably should have been more around a 70, but it wasn't a personal best, and it wasn't egregiously high, IMO.

- D/R had a flawless FS and yet their PCS were kept lower than the Germans (who had 2 major errors), and also 1.5 points below their own PB... the clean FS was 5 points lower than their PB, and it didn't even clear 150

- W/P were placed behind the Americans H/D in the free dance -- if they were truly "scored very generously", H/D would have been held back more to avoid any upset to the Canadian #2 (see: G/P at Rostelecom held far back from S/B)... also, note that H/D was the team who got a personal best FD score, not W/P or V/M on home ice

- as rain pointed out, plenty of Canadian skaters were hammered by the tech panel

- and as a general fact: No pcs personal bests or 10.00s were given to perfomances with a fall(s)

 

[YesWay]

While I misspoke in calling her a tech specialist instead of tech controller - still the tech controller does have considerable clout on the panel including the ability to reverse/change/control calls and affect the score sheet. And given the long wait times its safe to say she was giving her two cents and thensome.

Once again, you either don't know what you're talking about, or you are deliberately trying to mislead people.

The technical controller does not have final say, or power of veto, etc over the tech specialist and assistant.

The controller can propose corrections to calls.
But the tech specialist and assistant can simply outvote the controller, 2 against 1

 

[eppen]

I did a bit of research on the < and << calls in recent years in the GP series and major championships and posted it elsewhere, but I think a copy of that would work also here:

I started thinking the same thing because so many skaters seemed to get low final TES scores and wanted to see what is common in the GP series when it comes to under-rotations and downgrades. It turned out that there were 29 < calls [Rockerskating had counted 33, I did not check but it is easy to miss some esp. if there are other calls with the same jump] in the ladies FS and 5 << yesterday. Compared to Rostelecom last week, that is indeed a lot as in Russia the numbers were < 6 and << 0... Then I just had to look at 2016: half of the competitions (Rostelecom, France and Skate America) had < 13-15 and << 2-4, but the rest < 22-27 and << 4-5. The lower figures were matched by the whole GP series in 2015. A different panel each time, with some judges appearing in different roles in different years.

After that I expanded my research to cover the Euros, 4CC and Worlds from 2011, when the < and << system was introduced, to 2017. In the Worlds, 2011-2 and 2017 in the ladies FS < 13-11-12 and << 6-3-5. 2013-2016 the same < 24-22-24-28 and << 2-10-3-4. Five tech specialists were in the panels with the dreaded Shin Amano (JPN) appearing 3 times. He was strict only once in 2015, but very lenient in 2011 and 2012... The baddest specialist was Pirjo Uimonen (FIN) in 2016 with her 28 < calls. Compared to the GP series this is rather low, because the number of skaters is double. (But maybe skaters are peaking in the Worlds and also trying harder than in the GP series?)

Similar results for the Euros, with < 18-16-17 as the lowest in 2011-2013-2015. 2012-2014-2016-2017 calls for < 24-30-35-23. Amano was specialist twice, once with the lowest and once the highest number of calls!

4CC did not make an exception with < 14-22 and the highest figure being 2016.

Based on this sample there was no clear correlation between the panel members and the strict calls because it tends to be always different persons. Amano was also not always the super-strict specialist he is revered to be (what a disappointment!). The only other person who appeared twice as tech specialist in the major championships was Sandor Galambos (I think HUN) in Euros 2014 and Worlds 2013 and he was strict both times < 30 in Euros and < 24 in the Worlds.

The biggest numbers of < calls came always in 2016 and it got me wondering whether there was a bit of an ISU policy clean-up for under-rotations in 2016 both in the major championships in the spring and then in the fall in the GP series (or at least in half of the competitions)? We'll see how this season continues...

The biggest numbers come in the FS and particularly the second part jumps - tiredness etc. obviously. Also, most calls appear in the bottom 12 skaters.

I did not make notes on which skaters were regularly hit byt multiple (or in general by) < calls, but I remember seeing names like Artemieva, Asada, Chartrand, Chen, Galustyan, Hongo, Li Zijun, Miyahara, Nagasu, Popova, Russo, Wagner repeatedly. Also Kailani Crane and Brooklee Han from AUS. Of the Canadian skaters, Alaine has big problems, Daleman used to have UR issues but not as much in recent years. Few Russian skaters of the current crop have UR problems based on evaluation by multiple tech panels - Artemieva was the last one with big problems in that respect.

Just out of idle curiosity went back to Worlds 2016 ladies FS and the number of < and << calls were 10:2 non-European:European skaters. In 2017 the same numbers were almost equal at 7:5 non-European:European; as also in 2015 - 9:8. Tech speacialists - 2015 Shin Amano (JPN), 2016 Pirjo Uimonen (FIN) and 2017 Vanessa Gusmeroli (FRA). 2015 and 2016 calls were much higher in number than in 2017.

As I said in the earlier post, the strictness does not seem to depend on the tech officials - there were relatively few repeats in names with Shin Amano being the most frequent one as a tech specialist and even he did not make equal numbers of calls in every competition he judged.

If a skater gets < calls (even multiple ones) year in year out from a variety of panels, can you blame the panels for making the calls or should the skater start seriously working in correcting her problem?

E

 

[Mathman]

I think maybe, just maybe you should consider that perhaps what you perceive as "generous" scoring is due to the fact that Canada tends to send its "A" team to this event...

That's a great point, and I think it applies to all of the Grand Prix events and explains some of the perceived home cooking. Every Grand Prix host sends their best to their own event. Then they try to select international skaters who will be the least threat to the homies, within the ISU regulations.

 

[moriel]

So a French *speaker* somehow equates to favouritism - how did that work out for Chartrand (who is more French than Osmond) and Lecavelier on their generous lack of tech calls? :sarcasm: And a fellow North American showing favouritism- oh wait, except there were all those calls that Chen/Wagner/Hicks/Chartrand/Austman got called on.

While I misspoke in calling her a tech specialist instead of tech controller - still the tech controller does have considerable clout on the panel including the ability to reverse/change/control calls and affect the score sheet. And given the long wait times its safe to say she was giving her two cents and thensome.

But saying Osmond got favouritism because the tech spec *speaks French* (like... points for originality... but, what?!) and because the asst TS is *North American* (not even Canadian) is quite the stretch, especially when you look at the plethora of tech calls against other North American/French skaters.

Well, when we speak of russians, people usually blame anything even remotely resembling it - all goes, a russian sounding name, the fact the judge is from an ex soviet country and so on. I kinda see the logic: if Polish and Ukranian judges are 100% pro russian just because ex-Soviet, ofc a french speaking judge will support fellow french speaking skaters
Get used to it, this forum is weird hehe